HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
Where's @HoofHearted?
Can you explain the zone blocking rules that cause Saffold to turn away from blocking Minkah Fitzpatrick and leaving him to flatten Josh while Morse is engaged with a blocker? Even if Morse is supposed to pass his guy off to Bates and take on Fitzpatrick, shouldn't Saffold at least chip Fitzpatrick to give Morse time?
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2 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:
I don’t know how anyone can watch that throw and think he’s a system QB
Everyone is a "system" player. You either get guys who fit that system or you mold your system around what your players do best. We do a really good job of both.
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52 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:
Agree. When Diggs motions his left arm before the snap is that a potential tell for future defenders he is asking for the ball?
Also in the third tweet, watch the reaction to the pass from the Steelers #97, hilarious.
He's alerting the ref that he's off the LoS.
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15 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
On the dude - no idea, never heard of him. Read his twitter bio and your guess is as good as mine.
On the Cover 3 - Erik Turner broke this down on the Cover1 film room this week. 2:40 in if the time stamp doesn't work He says the Steelers showed Cover3 but it was actually a Tampa 2 look. I don't think Allen was "throwing a prayer" into triple coverage but that explains why Diggs was all alone, and can we agree that throwing into what's actually a 2 high look may get Josh into trouble with a better secondary?
He's right. I didn't see the bottom side corner before. Still follows the sample principles I was talking about earlier though - the Mike Linebacker is a wall player to give the corner and Safety time to get to the throw. It's still the right read with the deep half player coming from so far outside.
Diggs looks so open because the Safety to that side is reading Allen's eyes. If Allen were looking Diggs way he'd be tighter on Diggs over the top.
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3 hours ago, Beck Water said:
Speaking solely for myself, the wild factor:
-he's got two DB in the area at the catch point, one able to make a play on the catch and both able to potentially pick any deflection by the rook
-Diggs appears to be more open
Matt Waldman calls this a "trust throw", would you disagree?
Offense was in trips to the field with a wide split by #1 to widen the corner - Steelers are sitting in Cover 3. Shakir is running the seam. That's a LONG way for the corner and backside Safety to travel. Mike has to carry or wall a vertical by #3 to give the Safety and Corner time to get over top. Was it an impressive throw and catch? Certainly. This notion that Allen was just throwing up a prayer into triple coverage is far from the truth though.
Here's what Allen is seeing as he releases the ball:
The corner doesn't come into the frame until the ball is about halfway to Shakir. Again, impressive throw and catch, but to me this is just two dudes understanding the scheme they are running vs the scheme they are seeing from the defense and attacking it at it's weakest point for maximum gains. Just all around good execution.
Side note - who is the dude talking in the twitter video? He doesn't sound like he has a clue what he's saying lol.
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13 hours ago, NickelCity said:
Just wild that Josh throws that ball.
He's got a receiver 1 on 1 with a Linebacker. What's wild about it?
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1 minute ago, Big Turk said:
I know he attended the Von Miller pass rush summit and Miller has been taking the DE's under his wing...I've never seen that move from him before
Yeah, he definitely didn't in college. He was very vanilla - basically worked three techniques - speed, bull, and long arm.
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1 hour ago, Big Turk said:
I'll add another one...Is This AJE or Von Miller?
Look at the bend and "ghost rush" he learned from Miller...
Has this part been reported? Very surprising this wasn't already in his bag of tricks with how much he likes using the long arm.
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3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
So theoretically Bates is the guy who is just kinda in No Man's Land on this play...he doesn't really do much of anything other than put one arm on Morse's player but isn't in position to take over for the block so Morse almost "Do Si Do's" the player he is blocking into the delayed blitzer which buys the half second Allen needs to get the pass off.
Bates is alright initially - punch to your gap. Morse gets squared up on the guy after Bates punch which is really the issue - he needs to keep his left arm free in order to work off to the second level defender if he rushes. The pocket is fairly clean - there's a clear path for Josh to be able to step up into - he just didn't.
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11 hours ago, MPT said:
Is it always so rigid that players aren't allowed to improvise in an obvious situation like this? Clearly it's a delayed blitz and clearly Dawkins and Morse are occupied and holding their blocks. So why wouldn't Saffold slide back to the blitz gap instead of wandering around in space?
Or is this actually Morse's fault for not shifting even though he was already engaged before the blitz came?
Morse's/Bates - Bates should overtake Morse's guy and Morse should be free to then work to the extra rusher.
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16 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Watching the reverse angle on that play and Allen is pretty close to being sacked for a safety due to Saffold going to double team nobody and leaving a guy in front of him with a clear path to the QB.
Now, granted, this could have been how they decide to block it up because Bates has nobody to block(the Steeler player in front of him doesn't rush and kid of just stands there and Morse ends up sort of coming off his block to get a piece of that defender, but it was more like he steered the Pittsburgh defender he was blocking into the way of the other guy and bumped him off course. That defender actually gets a hit on Allen on the play but it doesn't matter because...well Josh Allen is freaking Josh Allen.
Just seems really weird to block it up like that when Dawkins had his man stonewalled...I would have to think Saffold was supposed to block the dude that hit Allen on that play??
@HoofHearted any thoughts?
It's a half slide protection. Basically you lock the backside tackle (RT) and every other Offensive Lineman is responsible for the gap to their left. The Backs will insert backside B gap looking inside/out. Saffold is responsible for the left side B gap - when he see's the defender back up at the snap he is no longer a B gap threat and so he works to double to his gap. Morse is ultimately responsible for passing off his block to Bates so that he can work to that left side A gap if something shows.
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14 hours ago, Big Turk said:
I am honestly not sure how Davis keeps doing it. He only runs a 4.54 40 which is average speed for a WR and certainly not the type of speed that would make you think he has the ability to consistently take the top off a defense, but yet here we are.
Since Davis has come into the NFL, he ranks 4th with an average of 18.0 YPC. The only 3 players ahead of him are either fading players like DeSean Jackson who is currently a UFA, Henry Ruggs who is no longer playing and likely never will again, and John Ross who is a bit player and a one trick pony.
All of them are speed guys. Looking at the receivers directly after him, you have Marques Valdez-Scantling, Donovan People-Jones and Breshard Perriman. Again all speed guys...
Davis doesn't fit the mold of a deep threat but yet he is one of the best ones in the NFL and consistently gets open deep.
So my question is how?? Is he simply great at setting up CBs with moves to get them turned or to slow down and then runs by them or does he have much faster play speed than what he ran in the 40?
I don't think anyone thought when we drafted him we were getting the NFL's best deep threat(by the numbers at least...I would still pick Hill obviously if I had to have one play) but yet he has turned into the big play WR for us.
Combination of Diggs pulling coverage and choice routes within the scheme.
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DaQuan Jones. This dudes play has elevated the play of others on the defense far more than any other player out there imo.
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1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:
What a great problem to have. DB was a big concern coming into this season with no Tre White. It was considered a thin,weak spot on the defense
We now see that it is a great strength with Elam and Benford balling as rookies and Dane picking up where he left off with great play.
This also gives Bill's the luxury to wait as long as needed for Tre to return. Beane doesn't miss!
We now have what seems like 5 legit starters at CB , including Taron. So what do the Bills do with Tre?
Elam these last two games has been phenomenal. I think he gave up 1 reception in the last 2 games while playing the whole game.
Dane has looked phenomenal. The only WR to really do anything vs our secondary was Kupp.
These guys take away nearly every WR , week in and week out.
I'm thinking we might try to swing a trade for 1 of these young studs, I mean it's just incredible how smooth they transitioned.
I was also thinking rotating them by series, playing the hot hand but I'm not a big fan of that. I like DBs to get in a rhythm and pick up on their opponents tendencies.
Either way, amazing problem to have and interested in your opinions on this.
Go Bills
Tre will replace the rookies. They've been given a bunch of help so far. Playing Tre and Dane allows Frazier to do more with the scheme than they've been able to do so far this year.
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6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
I found a site that has tons of actual playbooks in PDF formats from a bunch of NFL teams and college teams and am amazed at how much stuff there is to know and understand on every play for players and how the "rules" changed based on formations and personnel groupings...it opened up a whole new understanding of how players could be on the wrong page with each other during a game...
The complexity of some of this stuff is mind boggling to me...for example, these are from the Bills 2003 defensive playbook and are Greggo's "Pressure Packages" from his time here. Just looking at this one play for example, there are 8 different "versions" of this play based on personnel group and formation. Now imagine having all these different "versions" to keep track of for every play you have to know. And I am sure there are way more things to remember than just that...anyone who claims football players are dumb never read through one of these...there is no way you can be dumb and pick this stuff up, at least not very well.
Haha. That looks a lot more complex than what it actually is. When you break it down positionally it simplifies, but yes, things can get complex.
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32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Awesome! So one thing I am curious about and something I have heard is that coverages are a lot more complex in the NFL than in college because in college based on NCAA rules you don't have as much practice time with the players as they do in the NFL. How much truth is there to that and what are some things that you would have liked to implement defensively that you couldn't because it would be too complex if there were any?
IMO you're able to have more complex things in at the NFL level because they aren't teaching a ton of technique (for the most part). I think that's where the Bills have separated themselves from others in the NFL - they still focus on the fundamentals of the game and spend time working the little technique stuff whereas most teams expect guys to come in with the technique already developed and they focus solely on scheme. At the end of the day coverages are coverages - there's only so many ways you can slice an apple and still be sound. The complexity comes in how teams are able to disguise their coverages.
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10 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Or you are blitzing Josh Allen and he makes your unblocked defender look silly and escapes outside and then throws deep? Would you still attempt to blitz Allen if you were a DC against him?
I have so many questions for you in regards to things as you obviously have huge amounts of knowledge the normal person does not...
Can I ask at what level you were a DC? College I would assume?
Well yeah, that's always the risk/reward you have to weigh based on who you're playing lol. 0 blitzing Josh or Lamar would scare the hell out of me. Much safer to send 5, attack the protection to where you can guarantee a 1 on 1 with a back, and play Cover 1 or Zone behind it. And yes, at the high school and college level.
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33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:
Which is why it is slightly odd that they have hire Kromer to come back and run the zone scheme again. It is like they are obsessed with it and even though the gap scheme worked better for us they immediately binned that in the offseason to go back to zone blocking.
From a defensive perspective it's a tough scheme to stop if you master it because it's designed to have natural cutbacks. Essentially there's three different gaps the ball could end up hitting at. Gap scheme stuff essentially telegraphs where you're trying to go with the football and is simpler as far as conceptually to defend because you can manipulate blocks easier through stunting/blitzing. Zone schemes are designed to allow you to do all the movement/stunting you want and have an answer for it while also still providing three different gaps for the ball to hit in.
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43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
So every OLman who has spoken to the press has raved about how Kromer works to a guy's strengths. Why is he so determined on zone runs then?
As far as simple zone rules, doesn't it get a lot more complicated than that? Since teams seem to be doing a lot of stunts and blitzes against us? In theory, sure, he's in your area, block the guy, but if the body you expect to block goes elsewhere or there are several bodies, I know that's where communication about blocking schemes comes into it.
Isn't the deep pass to the center of the field one of the two canonical ways to defeat Cover 0 (yes, assuming you have protection and/or mobility to buy time for it), along with the screen pass?
Kollman did a nice thing on it a couple years back, do you disagree?
The rules are the rules. They are simple in principle. You're correct that movement makes it a lot more complex which is why everyone has to be on the same page and rely on their rules. If I'm uncovered initially, but they stunt to where I am now covered I have to follow my rule. I'm sure Kromer does work to their strengths - a lot of that has more to do with how he's teaching individual technique stuff though more so than scheme.
As a defensive coordinator for many years, any time I call Man pressure's I am telling my coverage guys the ball has to come out quick because I'm bringing more than they can block and attacking their pass protection in a way that I guarantee I'll get an unblocked rusher. There should not be enough time for a QB to hang in the pocket and throw deep (unless you're playing press and they just throw up a shot, but why play press when you're anticipating something quick to be thrown - just sit on the route and drive it.) Perimeter screen game is effective against the 0 blitz stuff because of the run fits aspect of it. There has to be communication within the secondary as to when they are comboing coverage on receivers because of the picks that'll be set up by blocks in the perimeter screen game. The slip screens to the RBs rarely work against it because of Peel/Hug Up rules. Simply put, if you're an edge rusher you have peel rules on a RB meaning if he release to your side you have him man to man. If the back steps up to an interior gap (like he would on a slip screen) then whoever is responsible for that gap will "hug up" the runner and not allow him to release.
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32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Yeah I remember that...what do you think the issue is? I remember Kromer ran the zone blocking scheme when he was here last time and there were plays where it looked like the RB had 4 holes to pick from that would all be big gains. That was back when TD Mike Gillislee seemingly would come in the game and rip off a huge run once a game and wouldn't even be touched until he was like 30 yards downfield. Believe the Bills led the league in rushing once and maybe twice during those years.
I find it hard to believe he just forgot how to run the scheme or coach the players how to run it properly. It seems to me the players jus aren't very good at executing the fundamentals of it or there are a few responsibilities on a play(ie, Saffold chipping a blocker first to allow Dawkins to get to make a reach block) and they either forget the first part of what they are having to do or they are just making fundamental errors when executing it. If I not mistaken Zone Blocking kinda requires the entire OL to block in unison or it doesn't work right, correct? Much more so than a man on man scheme where a player can miss a block but the play can be successful because they are running away from that side.
Yeah, everyone is essentially on 45 degree angle tracks to the play side. They all have to work in unison in order to work through their covered, to uncovered, to backside backer rules. Since I'm in season right now I haven't been able to really look all that closely into it, but just based on our personnel we're undersized for what we're trying to do. There's been a few times I've seen us not hold the double long enough for the other OL to overtake the block as well.
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32 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
With Davis healthy and able to run his best and McKenzie available, sure. I know that beautiful deep completion to Davis against LA had them re-thinking the Cover 0 concept.
But if you don't have the option of a couple deep threats, does that work very well?
The deep threat isn't really the thing I'd worried about - rarely are you going to have time to even get it off. We have dudes who can create separation at the LoS - that's the big key. Quick hitters that'll generate big YAC because everyone else on defense has their back turned.
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1 minute ago, Beck Water said:
But wait.....Jonathan Taylor would get yards and yards more behind our same OL, I read it right here
Seriously, I know the OL has bitten big time especially once Morse went out vs. Tennessee and was out for Miami (then the entire right side of the OL followed). But is it limited to the OL? I've seen plays where the timing was just off on Gilliam lead blocking and the blockers downfield whiffed as well, leading to a 3-4 yd gain instead of more.
Nothing is solely on one individual or group every time, but yes the OL hasn't been very good. Zone rules are not very complicated. If you're covered block the guy covering you, if you're uncovered you double the guy to the play side, depending on the leverage and front one of those two then works up to the backside backer. With a new OL coach it could be an issue of players still getting used to the new terminology and their communication is lacking or it could be that we don't have the players to run a predominately zone scheme. Ideally you'd like a bunch of maulers up front who can get push and work up to the second level. Outside of Dawkins and Saffold we got a bunch of dudes who are 310 or under, but they move well. Like last year, we're probably better off running more gap scheme stuff where we can get Morse, Bates, and Brown pulling and kicking and use Dawkins and Saffold to block down and just lean on guys. Shoot, even Dawkins looks good as a puller. You saw it last week in the third quarter when we ran G Lead - condensed the formation - pulled Dawkins - and Motor ran for almost 20 yards.
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Just now, Beck Water said:
This notion is a surprise to me. I think it would surprise the Cover 1 guys as well, since they were commenting about the Dolphins game that Dorsey's sole answer to pressure seemed to be "Singletary out wide".
Empty is a fantastic way to get people out of pressure. Forces you to play Cover 0 on the back end if you still want to bring the house. With our weapons I love that matchup.
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8 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:
Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer.
Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.
Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.
My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field.
Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.
Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think.
Totally different techniques plus there's no chance Tre holds up in the box. You'd just be setting him up for failure.
So You Wanna Be an NFL QB?
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Saffold doesn't get "pwn'ed" by anything. He has a potential threat in his gap and once that threat is eliminated he moves on to his gap side to double that threat. Not sure where the chemistry bit with Morse is coming from. The rules are the rules and freelancing will get you beat.