HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
So every OLman who has spoken to the press has raved about how Kromer works to a guy's strengths. Why is he so determined on zone runs then?
As far as simple zone rules, doesn't it get a lot more complicated than that? Since teams seem to be doing a lot of stunts and blitzes against us? In theory, sure, he's in your area, block the guy, but if the body you expect to block goes elsewhere or there are several bodies, I know that's where communication about blocking schemes comes into it.
Isn't the deep pass to the center of the field one of the two canonical ways to defeat Cover 0 (yes, assuming you have protection and/or mobility to buy time for it), along with the screen pass?
Kollman did a nice thing on it a couple years back, do you disagree?
The rules are the rules. They are simple in principle. You're correct that movement makes it a lot more complex which is why everyone has to be on the same page and rely on their rules. If I'm uncovered initially, but they stunt to where I am now covered I have to follow my rule. I'm sure Kromer does work to their strengths - a lot of that has more to do with how he's teaching individual technique stuff though more so than scheme.
As a defensive coordinator for many years, any time I call Man pressure's I am telling my coverage guys the ball has to come out quick because I'm bringing more than they can block and attacking their pass protection in a way that I guarantee I'll get an unblocked rusher. There should not be enough time for a QB to hang in the pocket and throw deep (unless you're playing press and they just throw up a shot, but why play press when you're anticipating something quick to be thrown - just sit on the route and drive it.) Perimeter screen game is effective against the 0 blitz stuff because of the run fits aspect of it. There has to be communication within the secondary as to when they are comboing coverage on receivers because of the picks that'll be set up by blocks in the perimeter screen game. The slip screens to the RBs rarely work against it because of Peel/Hug Up rules. Simply put, if you're an edge rusher you have peel rules on a RB meaning if he release to your side you have him man to man. If the back steps up to an interior gap (like he would on a slip screen) then whoever is responsible for that gap will "hug up" the runner and not allow him to release.
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32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Yeah I remember that...what do you think the issue is? I remember Kromer ran the zone blocking scheme when he was here last time and there were plays where it looked like the RB had 4 holes to pick from that would all be big gains. That was back when TD Mike Gillislee seemingly would come in the game and rip off a huge run once a game and wouldn't even be touched until he was like 30 yards downfield. Believe the Bills led the league in rushing once and maybe twice during those years.
I find it hard to believe he just forgot how to run the scheme or coach the players how to run it properly. It seems to me the players jus aren't very good at executing the fundamentals of it or there are a few responsibilities on a play(ie, Saffold chipping a blocker first to allow Dawkins to get to make a reach block) and they either forget the first part of what they are having to do or they are just making fundamental errors when executing it. If I not mistaken Zone Blocking kinda requires the entire OL to block in unison or it doesn't work right, correct? Much more so than a man on man scheme where a player can miss a block but the play can be successful because they are running away from that side.
Yeah, everyone is essentially on 45 degree angle tracks to the play side. They all have to work in unison in order to work through their covered, to uncovered, to backside backer rules. Since I'm in season right now I haven't been able to really look all that closely into it, but just based on our personnel we're undersized for what we're trying to do. There's been a few times I've seen us not hold the double long enough for the other OL to overtake the block as well.
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32 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
With Davis healthy and able to run his best and McKenzie available, sure. I know that beautiful deep completion to Davis against LA had them re-thinking the Cover 0 concept.
But if you don't have the option of a couple deep threats, does that work very well?
The deep threat isn't really the thing I'd worried about - rarely are you going to have time to even get it off. We have dudes who can create separation at the LoS - that's the big key. Quick hitters that'll generate big YAC because everyone else on defense has their back turned.
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1 minute ago, Beck Water said:
But wait.....Jonathan Taylor would get yards and yards more behind our same OL, I read it right here
Seriously, I know the OL has bitten big time especially once Morse went out vs. Tennessee and was out for Miami (then the entire right side of the OL followed). But is it limited to the OL? I've seen plays where the timing was just off on Gilliam lead blocking and the blockers downfield whiffed as well, leading to a 3-4 yd gain instead of more.
Nothing is solely on one individual or group every time, but yes the OL hasn't been very good. Zone rules are not very complicated. If you're covered block the guy covering you, if you're uncovered you double the guy to the play side, depending on the leverage and front one of those two then works up to the backside backer. With a new OL coach it could be an issue of players still getting used to the new terminology and their communication is lacking or it could be that we don't have the players to run a predominately zone scheme. Ideally you'd like a bunch of maulers up front who can get push and work up to the second level. Outside of Dawkins and Saffold we got a bunch of dudes who are 310 or under, but they move well. Like last year, we're probably better off running more gap scheme stuff where we can get Morse, Bates, and Brown pulling and kicking and use Dawkins and Saffold to block down and just lean on guys. Shoot, even Dawkins looks good as a puller. You saw it last week in the third quarter when we ran G Lead - condensed the formation - pulled Dawkins - and Motor ran for almost 20 yards.
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Just now, Beck Water said:
This notion is a surprise to me. I think it would surprise the Cover 1 guys as well, since they were commenting about the Dolphins game that Dorsey's sole answer to pressure seemed to be "Singletary out wide".
Empty is a fantastic way to get people out of pressure. Forces you to play Cover 0 on the back end if you still want to bring the house. With our weapons I love that matchup.
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8 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:
Bills should seriously consider moving Tre to safety when he returns. Right now Elam and Jackson are playing well and Benford will be back soon. The weakest link on the defense is Johnson/Hamlin opposite Poyer.
Rod Woodson did this and landed in the HOF after his knee surgery and this history indeed sways my thinking. Woodson probably makes the HOF as a CB regardless. Others have done it too - Aneas Williams was another.
Tre is a great corner but it does appear to be true that McD's system allows CBs of all skill levels to do well. Akin to an OL playing your best 5 somewhat agnostic of position, perhaps the Bills should do the same thing in the secondary with their best 4 players plus Taron Johnson at nickel.
My only hesitation for White to safety is that he has never been a great tackler in the open field.
Hyde may never play for the Bills again given his injury and only 1 more year on his contract. Moving White to safety now and letting the rookies play CB gives them a long term plan for years to come in the secondary.
Feel free to flame away, but I look forward to what others think.
Totally different techniques plus there's no chance Tre holds up in the box. You'd just be setting him up for failure.
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8 minutes ago, Bangarang said:
WR screens seem to be good but RB and TE screens don’t seem as effective.
Same reason our run game has been poor. Common denominator there... The OL.
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2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
This was going on many years ago with Tom Brady and the Patriots...he would basically line up and if a running play was called but there was a DB playing off coverage on the WR, Brady would simply get the ball, take one step back and fire it out there for him to pick up easy yards without even calling an audible.
I remember a game where they were playing the Steelers and they had a phenomenal run D so the Patriots basically didn't even bother trying to run it and just threw almost every down and were carving them up and crushed them.
The announcers were stunned because that just never really happened back then. Teams always at least tried to run the ball. Basically it was the first time I remember watching a game and seeing those type of short passes used as a team's version of a running game.
Yep. It's called throwing the "gift". Happens a lot on the backside of 3x1. If the corner is playing off on the single side it's an automatic route conversion to a 5 yard stop. It's good stuff. Can't be treated as a replacement to the run game though - schematically those two are very different for a defense.
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12 minutes ago, jletha said:
It really worked well for us, as Dan said. This one and the Shakir one were huge to take the load off of Allen and get chunk yards in the absence of a true run game.
If we can utilize this against blitzing teams to get them out of Cover 2 itll be great.
If you're blitzing you're not running cover 2 behind it. Most you can send is 5.
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14 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:
That is pretty funny, because that used to be one of our biggest weaknesses. I have heard some analysts saying that the short pass and screen game has basically replaced are running game. I tend to agree for the most part.
This is true for most teams right now in the NFL, and you really see it at the college level. The perimeter run game has been largely replace by fast screens, bubbles, and tunnel screens. From a defensive perspective these plays are no different than playing the run - run fits have to be on point. Add RPOs to the equation and now you get the best of both worlds - depending on how the defense reacts you can end up with something hitting inside or outside.
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5 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:
What level do you coach and what's your coaching position?
And for a living you mean this is a full time job love in your own fully through coaching?
I’ve coached everything from high school to DI. I’m currently a DC. Yes, this is my full time job.
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2 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:
I'm going to bite on this one... what exactly does it mean that you "work in the field"... pretty broad statement.
I coach football for a living.
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4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:
First let me say that I didnt say you couldn't post here or anything of the sort. What I said was I dont need or want an education from you. I dont need a masterclass in football. You further pushed the issue as if I was some moron. Im not a moron. K? Im very educated. I probably have more education then a lot of people on this forum because I have worked in multiple trades and I constantly have to retrain or seek new training as technology grows which is every year of my working life for the last 34 years.
Im glad you know football really well. Good for you that you are a coach. I mean that seriously. If that is what you wanted to do with your life then you are right where you belong. As someone not in that field, I simply don't care to know the ins and outs of everything football related. I have eye balls and common sense and enough game knowledge through both play and watching football for 40 years. While I appreciate that maybe you wanted to teach me something, when I say I dont care then that means I dont care. That doesnt mean give me a one liner like Im a moron.
If he looked to that side then he really sucks because his guy was as open as it gets in the end zone when you are on the 5 yardline. Do you dispute that he was open or nah? Do you dispute that maybe sometimes your read should change based on presnap and post snap or nah?
That's fine if you don't "want or need an education", but there are others on this board who do like to know what is actually going on. I wasn't coming at you, I was simply describing what was actually happening within the play design. To be completely honest with you, Milano probably picks that pass off to the #2 receiver if it's thrown right off the snap because of how much it would pull the coverage. Progression can change based on pre-snap looks. In this instance the Bills had 3 over 2 on that top side - there's no logical reason to change the progression. Furthermore, the whole design of the play was to throw Duvernay open on the slant thinking they'd get the rub vs man coverage. The Bills played zone and the slant wasn't there. Lamar got pressured and it turned into scramble drill where all receivers work to open grass in the direction the QB is working to (that's how Duvernay ended up going from slanting to the middle of the field to the sideline). Again, I'm explaining all of this for the people that want to know.
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3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:
I dont think you get my meaning. I know enough about football that I care to know. I've played football and I have been watching football for 40 years. I dont need to know every intricate detail about every facet of football to watch and enjoy the game. I especially dont need to know what exactly is his reads are... hint unless you are him or greg roman you dont know either... to know a receiver is wide open, he didnt get him the ball or even look at him, and he doesnt read more than half the field almost ever. Also that he locked on his target until he threw a flutter ball to Poyer.
I dont need to know everything about football to know what I see. Im not a coach. Im not an NFL player. I know too many other things that are relevant to my life to have room to know stupid ***** that doesnt matter one iota to me. If you want to be a football coach then go ahead and be all high and mighty that you think you know what you know and go apply. Otherwise STFU with your epeen about it. You're on a fan message board not a job interview. People dont need to learn anything more than the basics. I dont give two ***** what that play is called. I dont give two ***** what exact routes those receivers were supposed to run. I dont give two ***** about what his progressions are.
He didnt even go through any progressions. If he had then he would have found the open man and got him the ball. You have said nothing to dispute that with all your football wisdom.
With that, I am done with this conversation with you. Your knowledge about football is only impressive if you have a job in the field. I have knowledge of industrial maintenance, plcs, electricity, machine repair, automated paint control, pumps, pneumatics, hydralics, automotive repair in all aspects because I was a master technician before switching fields, plumbing, HVAC, CNC repair, CNC coding, C++, Python, javascript, html, css, swift, swiftui, uikit, etc, etc, etc no room for mastering everything football.
1) He didn't lock on to a target - you must have missed me explaining that on this reply:
2) See above where I talk about him looking (with screenshot proof) to the two receiver side.
3) I guess you'll be impressed to know that I do work in the field.
I thought this was a football message board - you know - where you talk football. Didn't realize only novice football fans were allowed to post here. That's on me. My bad.
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2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:
I really dont care how football works. Lamar is not a good passing QB. Andrews has more catches than his two primary receivers combined.
Its really ok to recognize that receiver is the play here and he didnt look. You think Allen dont look that way? You think Mahomes dont look that way? You think Brady, Rodgers dont look that way? You think any of those QBs are locking onto one target only?
Then this is a conversation no longer worth having. Everyone is more worried about being right on here than learning something I guess.
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17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Watching the John Fina Podcast called Off Tackle again today and his breakdowns are very interesting...
Basically from what he is saying, we currently suck at inside zone blocking that we are trying to do because the players are making technical mistakes in the play in terms of who they are supposed to be blocking or not fully executing their assignments properly(ie, Saffold is supposed to help chip the player lined up across from him before he pulls because Dawkins has no prayer of reaching him to block him otherwise and he doesn't, leading to Singletary being tackled for a loss instead of having a huge lane to run through if it was executed properly).
To be honest, this isn't overly surprising with us changing the running scheme this year coupled with us not running very often for them to get real reps.
I would expect them to get better as the year goes on.
Would highly recommend if you want to get breakdowns by Fina of technical aspects of the run game and why things aren't working as well as they could be,
To be fair we ran a bunch of zone scheme stuff early on last year too and sucked at it. Once we switched over to more gap scheme stuff we started being able to run the ball more effectively.
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Just now, Scott7975 said:
It doesnt matter. The receiver is open as any receiver is every going to get open in the endzone. Good QBs get that player the ball.
It's okay to learn a little bit about how football actually works through these conversations. 😉
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15 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:
He stuck to only one target Andrews until he ran out of time during his back peddle. Thats not progression at all. You cant tell me the most important play in their game only had one read. Lamar is a half field QB. Been his whole life and that hasnt changed in his 5 years of NFL play.
It doesnt look worse than it is. It doesnt get anymore open than that. Yes the coverage would roll but a good QB gets that ball there. Enough excuses.
Andrews wasn't even the first read... Duvernay was. They were trying to pick to get him open. Also, he does look to the two receiver side first to try and pull the RAT that way before looking back to Duvernay. You can see it pull the coverage because of it. Sorry this isn't fitting your narrative big fella.
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27 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:
There are multiple QB's in this league that are getting that ball there to the guy on the left bad read by the QB. Also thought Baltimore should of lined up in a run formation as that would of insured worst case the Bills will be starting inside the 5
It all depends on the read progression of the concept. They came out in Trips Bunch Squeeze to the bottom side of the field for a reason. They were expecting man and trying to run some rub routes to scheme a guy open. The reads are the reads.
19 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:Yes but he never even looked. As I said, Josh Allen would have gotten him the ball and so would many other QBs. It doesnt get any more wide open then that in the redzone in the NFL.
Again, it looks worse than what it is. If Lamar looks left the window closes immediately because Milano is pushing to #2's hip at the snap.
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4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:
yep. Guy is wide open on the left. Gaping holes for Lamar to run through to the left. Instead he back peddled because Andrew was the only read he thought about. This is why Lamar is not an Elite QB, just an Elite athlete.
Drops are based on QB eyes. If Jackson were to have looked Milano's side first the coverage would be a lot tighter backside. It's all about closing down passing lanes.
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1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:
Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out. I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield. The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff.
It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday. Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss. Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down. Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball. Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two. Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up.
These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year. It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option.
If you're talking about the Naked Bootleg in the redzone it was actually a designed pass.
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Unfortunately, I think he'll be too pricey for us to keep. This board hates him because he doesn't make a ton of splash plays vs the run without an understanding of his role in the run game or how run fits work within our scheme. He's more than just a pass defender and he'll be paid as such.
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6 minutes ago, Virgil said:
Yes, I play Madden too. People get the gist of what’s being said. That’s not what I do here.
If you a better picture, watch the game
I see that I've pushed a button with you. I was genuinely interested in having a scheme conversation with you on why you think our run schemes are not very creative. If you don't know it's okay to admit that and we can discuss some of the stuff you saw if you have clips/highlights.
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12 minutes ago, Virgil said:
I mean, what don’t you understand. Would RPO out of the shotgun paint a better pic for you?Shotgun, 12 personnel, run handoff up the middle….
No, Inside Zone, Counter, Power, Duo, ISO, etc. That would paint a better picture for me.
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Allen is the Bills only short yardage option
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
From a defensive perspective it's a tough scheme to stop if you master it because it's designed to have natural cutbacks. Essentially there's three different gaps the ball could end up hitting at. Gap scheme stuff essentially telegraphs where you're trying to go with the football and is simpler as far as conceptually to defend because you can manipulate blocks easier through stunting/blitzing. Zone schemes are designed to allow you to do all the movement/stunting you want and have an answer for it while also still providing three different gaps for the ball to hit in.