HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:
When he is blocked and he goes inside and the RB goes outside for an example..
My biggest issue was him not being able to shed off any blocks and make any impact plays
As an inside backer in a 4-3 box (which is what we were in most of the night) you are a spill player. Essentially you're job is to fit the open gap as tight as you can to force the ball to "spill" outside to our unblocked defenders.
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1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:
It wasn’t a blanket statement.
It was my opinion on what I saw.
I don’t have the Xs and Os and I can very well be wrong.
But to “Me”, he just looked lost out there on Sunday night and seemingly seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times.
I guess I just don't understand how you can say he "seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times" when you don't know where he was suppose to be.
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1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:
I never once said “this is what happened”.
I said “I saw a guy” and listed the things I thought he didn’t do well.
Its called an opinion.
It’s a message board. Believe it or not , this is usually the place that people share their opinion on the bills and football and not everything is “black and white”
Which is why it’s fun to agree/disagree with different “opinions”..
"I saw a guy picking the wrong gaps all game" sounds more like a statement of fact than opinion to me. Anyway, didn't mean to pick at you specifically. This just seems to be a common theme around here. People making blanket statements without the ability to back them up and then they deflect once they are questioned about those statements.
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6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:
Nope I can’t, neither can any fan as we don’t have the play calls/responsibilities for each player on each play …lol
So does mean none of us should have an opinion on players? Based on your logic there…
If you know football you can get a pretty clear picture of what a players responsibility is based on alignments and post-snap movements. This isn't a "you" problem. It's just amusing to me how much statements like "we constantly fit the wrong gaps" gets thrown around here by people who have zero understanding of scheme or, more specifically, how run fits work.
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10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:
Sounds good buddy, I’ll send you the invoice for my breakdown on him!
My apologies. I thought since you were throwing around statements as if they were fact that you'd be able to back them up. That's my mistake.
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10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:
I think the reason why a lot of people at cover 1 and the film loves Edmunds is because he “does what he’s supposed to do” for the most part.
However, it seems like he can never just go off script and “make a play “.
Thats what makes good/great players in the nfl.
See Milano for one. I’m sure he doesn’t hit every gap perfect, but the dude just makes impact plays game after game
Oh, I meant I'd like to see you provide that breakdown.
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12 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:
Sometimes I wonder if I watch the same games as Tremaine Edmunds fans..
I saw a guy who was getting eat up by blocks, picking the wrong gaps all Game, and getting run over by Aj Dillon .
Sure he made 16 tackles, but how many were those 6-10’yards downfield?
Now I will say Edmunds has had a pretty good year to date.
But I don’t see how he had a good game yesterday as I thought he was borderline horrible.
Would love to see a breakdown of his play including specifics about the defensive fits in general, his specific reads and fits, and diagrams showing what he was suppose to do versus what he actually did.
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3 hours ago, Back2Buff said:
This was our issue for years now, but the Bills just roll out the same formations no matter the opponent and it continues to make no sense.
I have no idea why the Bills went nickel pretty much the entire game yesterday. If you can't stop those WR without a third CB on field, you have bigger issues with your secondary that will get you no where fast.
When the other team is missing two LBs and you are up 17 points, you go big and you run the ball down their throats. You don't try to run it out of shotgun with 3 WRs on field.
It's so frustrating to feel like we are a dumb football team because we don't adapt to the situation at hand. It's like we are too stubborn or something.
This is why many national reporter say the Bills rely on Allen too much, because they do. They are 100% right. Singletary and Cook were running fine with the right personnel in the game, yet Dorsey got so cocky.
Please explain in detail how taking Taron off for a Linebacker would have helped us fit the run better.
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6 minutes ago, Virgil said:
A slot receiver should almost primarily by the #3 receiver on a team. If only Davis and Diggs are stacked up top, I'm not going to say one of them is a slot receiver going forward
Was Edelman a slot?
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4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
AJ Hawk asked him "What did the Commanders do on defense that was surprising to you?"
Rodgers answered "Nothing. They played Cover 4 almost all game and sprinkled in a few plays where they had weak inserts and a few plays of man to man coverage and that was it."
Referring to Cover 3 Insert. Rolling the Safety down into the box to replace an inside backer rather than rolling down outside over #2 to replace an outside backer.
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10 hours ago, Big Turk said:
Rodgers talked about the Commanders doing a few "weak inserts" on D, tried to find out what this was but Google gave me nothing
@HoofHearted any help?
Do you have a link to the interview? I'd need a little more context in order to know what exactly he was talking about.
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Love hooves and hearts.
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3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:
Just to clarify I didn't mean they ignored the run game. So then, it's the talent of the players and/or coaching scheme that is the problem.
Without a change in personnel, what can be done this year to improve the run game?
I'll have a better answer for you after I start breaking it down in a few weeks.
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5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:
I've noticed a lot of Josh's RPOs that end up being a handoff, both he and the RB are pretty stationary. I speculate that this is caused by
Josh wanting to pull the ball back and throw or run himself.
I do agree with the timing aspect being important. It seems to me a good number of Bills running plays just don't look crisp. I have
speculated that not enough effort (as of now) has been put into the running game. I also wonder how effective practice time has been
for the offense when the Bills' run D is so good.
My hope is the run game will improve as the new OC settles in with his passing game and can give more attention with his new OL coach
to the running game. Do you see any merit in my thought or do you think I'm just dreaming?
There's a read element on RPO's but the mesh shouldn't look any different than non-RPO's out of gun. I can guarantee you the run game is a staple of practice every day. I have never been around an OC that doesn't spend at least 20 minutes on mesh and run polish every day. Then you get some type of inside run work in a team setting on top of that.
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2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
I was under the impression that was the basis for the creating of the Pistol Formation...to make running more effective from the gun.
Ault's mindset for running was a downhill style of run game. It took him and his staff at Nevada quite some time to figure out ideal depths for the QB and RB when they first started messing around with the Pistol because it threw the timing off of all their run concepts. Ultimately though it came down to timing over everything as to whether or not a concept was able to be successful or not.
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13 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Running in general is more effective under center because the RB is moving forward as he gets the handoff versus standing still.
I wouldn't say this is inherently true either. A lot of what makes run games effective is timing, not the rate at which the RB is moving forward when he gets the handoff. Additionally, outside of some type of draw, there shouldn't ever be a time where a RB isn't moving when receiving a ball in any concept.
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3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:
All I remember is I heard someone who seemed to know he was talking about say that running the stretch handoff is more effective in the wide zone than running out of the gun. He didn't explain why, and I don't know enough to know whether what he said actually makes sense. He didn't say you can't run it from the gun; obviously, you can. He said it was more effective.
Yeah, that's just simply not true.
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5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:
I'm not sure this is correct. I heard some expert say a few weeks ago that the outside zone game works best when the QB is under center and executes the stretch handoff. In fact, I noticed on Sunday that Allen was making the stretch handoff a few times, something that I hadn't noticed previously. It may have something to do with the back being able to break wide on the snap, rather than waiting for the snap to reach the shotgun QB and make the handoff, so the back has a head start to the edge. It stresses the defense, because all the d linemen are flowing with offensive linemen. If the back can break that way on the snap, the d linemen have to commit that way in a hurry. It's that movement that makes the zone blocks easier to execute, because the d lineman are moving laterally immediately and are less able to take on linemen coming at them.
You can run outside zone from under center, in gun, or in pistol. The stretch path is taught when running it from under center or out of pistol. When in gun the back is even to slightly in front of the QB with his alignment and can hit it running horizontally immediately. Not sure what expert you were listening to, but maybe you misunderstood or they're misunderstood?
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2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
As far as advantage, I'm hoping someone who knows more than I about meshing the run and the passing game will comment. @HoofHearted? @Buffalo716? I have only the vague idea that zone runs mesh better with operating out of shotgun and pin-and-pull gap runs work better operating under center. But when I say "vague idea" I mean my understanding is definitely in the "look at the choo choo" stage of training.
There's nothing to this. Both schemes can be equally effective out of gun or under center. Like I said I'll start working on breaking down our run game using the All-22 stuff here in a few weeks and make a post about it.
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A lot of questions to work through here so bear with me in regards to the wall of text:
1. There are no formation limitations to running zone vs gap scheme run concepts - both can be run out of any personnel grouping you could possibly imagine.
2. Neither run scheme is tied to a QB being under center.
3. Every team in the NFL runs inside zone. If you want to be any good at running the football you have to be able to incorporate both zone scheme and gap scheme run concepts. Likewise you can't just run wide zone/pin and pull and have no interior run concepts in your playbook - it makes you too one dimensional.
4. I'd have to go back and re-watch the gap to see if the Chiefs made adjustments for the pin and pull stuff in the second half. Can't tell you off-hand if they did anything different. @Big Turk
5. Inside Zone is run best with a bunch of bruisers up front. We don't have those guys. The majority of our line is 310lbs. or under and are decent athletes for big men. Think of a college team like Oklahoma when Cody Ford played for them. They had a bunch of BIG dudes like him that could work on 45 degree angle tracks in unison and get push up front. Oklahoma also coupled their inside zone stuff with heavy doses of true GT (Guard/Tackle) Counter. Keeping defenses off-balance is the big thing and it doesn't feel like we have enough variation with our interior run schemes for defenses to respect anything other than inside zone (Once my season is over I plan on going to the All-22 and doing a full year assessment of our run schemes and do a write-up about it). Inside zone is not a complex concept as far as rules are concerned, but everyone has to be on the same page when defenses start moving up front. The beauty of the concept is that it creates natural cut-back lanes for backs and essentially has three different paths a back could end up taking based on what the defense does. Whereas if you run GT Counter you're back knows you're aiming point pre-snap is playside A gap and it won't change regardless of what the defense does. The flexibility of the scheme to make a defense "wrong" no matter what they do is what makes inside zone so dangerous and why so many teams try to base out of it.
6. Pin & pull has been around for forever. It's not a new concept. Go back and look at all the wing-t stuff that was run way back when and you'll see pin & pull as a staple of those offenses.
7. RPOs are, by design, created to have run action go one way and pass action go the opposite of the run action. That's why they work and why they are so hard to defend. It's very similar in concept to the zone read run scheme where you're basically forcing a defender to be wrong regardless of what he does.
8. The 5 yard outs to Diggs aren't actually RPO's - they're called "gift" routes. It's a pre-snap read where if you're given cushion pre-snap your route converts to whatever your "gift" concept is that week and it's thrown regardless of the called concept. You'll see this a lot on the backside of 3x1 (to the single receiver side).
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16 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:
Yep - can't run an RPO if linemen are pulling and others are getting out in front of the play. Either a penalty or they'll crush you at the mesh point.
This is 100% incorrect. People run RPO's all the time off of Power/Counter looks. Shoot we've run em this year.
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16 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:
So I've been listening to a few podcasts discussing the running game and how we've been trying to establish a wide zone scheme but against KC we ran more gap scheme pin and pull concepts which our O-line seems to execute better.
Last year when our running game got moving towards the end of the year it was the pin and pull concepts that seemed to thrive.
So my question to those smarter than me is why do we keep trying this zone run scheme? What is the advantage to a wide zone as opposed to pin and pull? It sees to me if we were fairly good at the end of last year with the pin and pull, why wouldn't we roll that out at the beginning of this year instead of the wide zone?
Is there some advantage to the wide zone that I'm missing? Are there other wrinkles in the offense we want to run that depend on a zone scheme?
Just curious because to me I'd just keep hammering the pin and pull for the most part. It seems they went to it more in the KC game and maybe we are seeing that shift now but they definitely were trying to establish a zone scheme and I'm not sure why.
It's still technically Wide Zone - just a different way of blocking it by blocking down to get the edge set and wrapping guys around to lead.
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11 hours ago, Big Turk said:
The scary thing for defenses must be that Allen would have likely panicked earlier in his career and ran into pressure or made a bad throw, now he simply just delivers a strike and moves the chains or dumps it down for 5-10 yards.
Must be super frustrating for DCs to play against him. No matter what you call you are more likely to be wrong than right against him.
I mean I guess that makes sense in regards to the tipped passes, but Allen can't be the only player in the NFL they do this against can he? Other QBs aren't having the same tipped ball issues.
No, there's definitely other mobile QBs who teams actively try to contain within the pocket. The low box technique is what stands out most with how teams are playing Allen specifically. Teams are so afraid to give up easy rush lanes to him that they are essentially just maintaining the pocket and waiting for Allen to make a decision before they work pass rush moves. It worked really well for KC. Baltimore tried to do the same type of thing from what I recall when they were only rushing four as well.
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22 hours ago, Big Turk said:
Allen seems to be having a lot of tipped balls this year from watching the games and looking at the numbers it's significantly more than last year.
He is tied for the league lead with 12 batted balls with Mayfield who has to field questions as to why he was having so many. Granted Allen has 80+ more attempts but still, compared to last year even, it's significantly more.
Herbert led the NFL with 17 last season, Allen had the second most at 16. Currently he is on pace to have 34 which would be an outrageous number.
So I am wondering if there is something that is causing this that anyone has noticed? Is it him getting rid of the balls quicker? The shorter throws he is making more regularly? Bad luck? DLinemen stopping a rush to try and bat the ball down more?
Curious as to if Allen, Dorsey or McD will start getting asked about this if the media notices...
I can't find anything concrete on this but it appears Allen may be on pace to set a new batted balls record. I read an article from late October of 2018 that talked about how Cousins was on pace for 32 that year with the previous record being 23 in 2006. I don't have any final tally on Cousins for that year.
Can't find the final numbers for 2018, but 2019-2021, the highest is Baker with 20 in 2019.
Allen's numbers:
2019: 10
2020: 4
2021: 16
2022: 12(thru 6 games)
Defenses are making a concerted effort this year more than I've seen in years past of ensuring they establish the box. You saw this time and time again this past week with KC, but it's been happening all year long. The contain players (outside rusher) have been purposefully setting a really high box as to not allow Allen the opportunity to escape outside the pocket. These rushers have been rushing more of a contain path (more vertical upfield) than a true pass rush angle would put you in to collapse the pocket. Because of this most teams are making their Low Box players (any interior rusher) an automatic low gear player. Essentially telling those guys to try and push to collapse the interior of the pocket, but not working true pass rush moves until Allen steps up within the pocket. With these interior rushers essentially being read players at this point there are able to have clear line of sight to Allen and put themselves in a more advantageous position to allow them to get hands on low trajectory balls.
There were multiple times in the KC game Allen wanted to get outside the pocket, but because the high box player did such a good job of setting the box Allen could only step back up into the pocket, and was forced to deliver a ball from within it.
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Is There So Little Love for Tremaine Edmunds?
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
It would certainly be a loss. He's without a doubt a top 10 player at his position in the league. Our DL looked like DL's of past years against the Packers - defensive ends not getting hands on tackles and defensive tackles not getting hands on guards and centers. There were free releases from OL up to the second level all night long when they were running GH Counter and Outside Zone. The defensive line play wasn't good and Taron got fooled a couple of times with eye candy on misdirection out of the backfield.