sven233

All this talk about what happened with WGR and Beane. I have made my comments on this in the main thread, but based off of everything that happened since that aired, it makes me wonder if the whole thing would have never happened if we knew that Moore was coming in for a visit BEFORE the interview instead of 20 seconds after it aired. I mean, I think all the WGR guys were saying is that we probably could have used at least 1 more guy in the WR room to try and make life easier for Allen. I think the signing of Moore is kind of a perfect fit for what the Bills want to do on offense......positionless WRs that play in different packages depending on the game script. Hollins played like 60% of the snaps last year and I think all of us would say he probably was the 4th or 5th WR at best on the roster in terms of labels. So, with Moore coming in, I could absolutely see him slotting into the Hollins role. I think we can also all agree that Moore is more talented than Hollins overall. So, if the WGR guys would have known that the visit was happening and the signing was a possibility, I don't think the conversation on Monday every happens. Anyway, I like this signing a lot. It's one of this low to no risk, high reward types of signings. I think the dude has talent and we haven't seen his best because of the teams and QBs he has played with. I think he can get some separation and he likes to live in the intermediate areas that Allen likes to target. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he plays a more important role in this offense than many are expecting. Palmer is new to the the team and, while I like that signing too, we don't know what that is going to look like yet. The jury is still way out on Coleman. I have no reason to believe expectations should be real high with him. I wasn't big on him in the draft and until he proves differently, I think a middle of the road WR is distinct possibility for him. And Samuel has never been able to stay healthy for an entire season. So, with Shakir being the only reliable guy in the room, I could absolutely seeing Moore emerge as a guy to get a good amount of snaps this year. Regardless, I like the signing. We needed another guy in the room and he can run. So we'll see what happens.

Here's the thing......they're both right. They have different points of view as to where the WR room is, but they are both right and both have good points. BEANE - The Bills did score the 2nd most points in the league last season.....most if you include the Playoffs. - There are other positions on the team that you need to have to get the most out of your WR group. - Palmer is a good player and should offer more than what Hollins and Cooper gave you last season. - You can't pay everyone and every position big money. - The Bills put up enough points in the Playoffs to win those games last year and the defense let the team down and that's what needed fixing the most. WGR - Yes, the Bills scored the most points in the league last season, but it was only after having to make a trade early in the season after Baltimore and Houston brought their safeties down and manned up our WR corps and shut them down all over the field because they didn't respect the WR corps ability to beat them over the top. You realized that if you didn't do something, teams would continue to do the same thing. - Other teams with star QBs play to their strength and make it a point to surround him with top WR talent to help him be even better. - Cost controlled stars at premium positions are something you should strive to have. Draft these premium positions every year in hopes to get a superstar under a rookie contract. - Not sure it is right to expect huge steps forward from Coleman and Kincaid is the right thing to do. If they don't take the next step, this team probably won't have enough fire power in the end. - Teams react to what you do every year. Now that you have an entire season of this offense on tape, are you sure that the same basic WR corps that you had last season replicate the same success if the turnover margin isn't the same. Look.....I am not here to say who's right and who's wrong. I guess, in theory, I am always on the side of you can't have too many great WRs on your team. It is in my draft philosophy that you always draft premium positions high in hopes to find stars at those positions under cost controlled contracts as much as possible and I definitely have WR high on that list. It is no different really than one of my other draft philosophies of never drafting a RB high because I think the talent difference between the best ones (Barkley, etc) that are drafted super high is not as much as from someone you can draft in the 3rd-4th round (Cook, Davis) that is worth the contract difference. I will also say that this year wasn't the year to be pounding the table for WR to be drafted high. But I think wanting to bring in as much WR talent as possible in order to make Allen's life easier isn't the worst thing to do. Yes, you can look to the points scored and everything last year. But how much of that is Allen making up for the deficiencies in the WR room. I am always one to ask the question about how many of our big passing plays were made within the structure of the offense and on time in the play as compared to Allen putting on the cape and making those huge plays outside of structure many times while within 1 yard of the boundaries. There are many ways to win in this league. Some teams like the Eagles and Bengals pay top money to big time WRs. We are going the opposite route and going with the "Everybody Eats" philosophy. I actually like the "Everybody Eats" concept, but in order for that to be successful, you have to have everyone on offense buy in because guys know that nobody is going to put up huge numbers in that type of offense. The other thing you need are WRs with different skill sets that open up different levels of the field so everyone does have a chance to eat. As of today we don't have anyone on this team this is going to scare any team or DC deep. And that goes to the point above where the Ravens and Texans realized this last season and brought their Safeties down and manned up our WRs and clogged the intermediate levels where Allen loves to live. And that's the worry.....will it happen again if we don't find some vertical speed and explosion from another guy that can constantly beat man coverage. Anyway, this Beane interview and the spiciness it had wasn't on my Bingo card for today, but I am glad it happened. Like I said, both sides have great points and it makes for good conversation. I will say this, though....it is pretty funny that Beane came with all this vinegar defending the WRs on the roster and then 2 seconds later the Bills announce Moore is coming in for a visit. I will also say Beane came out and planted some pretty firm flags as to where he stands on this. He better be right because there are some very public receipts out there that will be coming if this team comes out of the gate slow and can't score enough points because the WRs can't get open. Let's just hope it all works out.

The benefits of a speed WR far outweigh the ability to hit on the long ball consistently. It's about opening up other areas of the field. Allen's best throws are not 60 yards down the field on go routes. He also isn't the best thrower of the ball at the LOS or under 10 yards down the field. Allen separates himself in the intermediate parts of the field. His big plays come in chunks of 15-30 yards. So just tell guys to get open in that range, right? No....it's not that simple. Just look at what happened last year. The first few games were great offensively. "Everybody Eats" was brand new and we came out of the gates fast because teams didn't know what to expect. But then we played a team with a real defense in Baltimore. They had several games on film and figured out exactly what we were doing. They realized that we had no threat down the field so what did they do. They brought their safeties up closer to the LOS and played man coverage. They basically said fine....we'll give you the deep shots all day and let's see if your WRs can beat us. We couldn't and that in turn clogged the middle of the field and made it difficult to move the ball because they knew there wasn't a chance a WR was going to beat their CBs down the field. Houston then did a lot of the same types of things. That's when we knew we had to do something to try and stretch the field and went and got Cooper. While he was a shell of his former self, he was still able to stretch the field deeper and make enough contested catches where things loosened up a bit again. Say what you want about Allen's completion percentage down the field over 50 yards. You know who else isn't accurate that far down the field? Most every QB in the NFL including Mahomes. He missed Worthy probably 10 times last season when he was open down the field. But you know what? He kept throwing it and teams HAD to respect it even if they weren't completed every time. Having a guy that can scare the pants off a DC and force them to keep their safeties deep and over the top changes everything underneath in the intermediate parts of the field where our guy loves to live. That said, my fear, and a lot of people's fear, is that the same thing that happened last year, happens this year. We'll come out of the gate with a few good games on offense because there will be some new wrinkles and Palmer will be new and an unknown. Then, teams will have 3-4 games on tape, see what we're going, and make the necessary adjustments. If we aren't at least testing teams down the field consistently, and everything is within 20 yards of the LOS because we don't have anyone that can separate down the field again, we're going to be in the same spot we were last year when we had to get desperate and trade for Cooper. That's why heading into this offseason getting a WR or even 2 with legit deep speed, explosion, and separation ability down the field was so important. We had to force teams out of man coverage and back their safeties off. We didn't do it. In fact, while Beane has said we haven't regressed, I am not so sure of that. We lost Hollins who had the most TDs in the passing game and we also lost Cooper who was the only one really winning at all down the field within the design of the play. Most of the downfield stuff we did complete was backyard football stuff were Allen put the cape on. I dare anyone to tell me how many balls over 30 yards were completed within the actual design and construction of the play. I can almost guarantee you that you will be able to count them on 1 hand.....and you may not use all of your fingers. Now, we did bring Palmer in and I actually think he will be pretty good for us. I think, at minimum, he will be a slight upgrade to Hollins and should separate more than any other WR we have on this roster not named Shakir. But is that enough to scare teams enough and force them to back off their safeties? I am not so sure. Allen is the best QB in the league in my opinion and he will mask a lot of shortcomings on this offense as he does every year. Unfortunately, I just have a feeling that 4-5 weeks into the season we are going to be in need of that big play WR yet again and we'll have to hope Beane can find a better trade than Cooper this time. One thing that could possibly help us out a lot is to use a ton more play action. Many of you know how much I was clamoring for that every week last season and it never happened. Allen is literally one of the best QBs in the league off play action and we call it like once or twice a game if we're lucky. But that's a different conversation for a different day. Ugh.....don't get me started on Brady's lack of play action calls.

And I would be fine trying either of those guys. But, they don't have the best history of success. Would remind me of the MVS signing without the important catches in big games. But if Beane wants to try them, fine with me. Maybe catching balls from a real NFL QB could help them break through, but I am looking for a little more of a proven commodity that the league respects. I don't think even with their speed the league respects either of these guys. But hey.....throw a dart.

Probably pretty close as it stands now, but man.....that WR room is brutal. Shenault can't be counted on to be a WR even though it is his natural position. So, I am not sure he makes the roster. And, if that's correct, that only leaves 4 on the roster and only 1 that I am absolutely confident in as being good in Shakir. The jury is still way out on Coleman. It seems Samuel always comes up hurt at some point in the season. And Palmer has never played a snap with this team. Shakir is our only definite good WR. Just sticks out like a sore thumb. We might not just need to add 1 WR. We might need to add 2 legit WRs to this team before we kickoff in September.

Quite honestly, the WR we need with the skillset that we need is not available in FA. The guy we need is on a roster somewhere that we need to trade for. If I have 1 major criticism of Beane is that he hasn't addressed the lack of speed in the WR room since Brown was here. Sure, when Diggs arrived, he helped with that, but he was never a true burner. We need a prime John Brown back in the offense. Doesn't necessarily have to be a league wide star, but a piece to the puzzle that opens up all areas of the field because teams have to fear his speed. But Beane will probably have go out, identify that guy, and swing a trade for him. The problem is our cap situation is so restrictive hight now and getting anyone of good enough value might be kind of tough. I don't know.....I guess I just wish we prioritized the WR position more than we have the last few years. And not just the position, but the type and skillset of the WR. Coleman is the highest we have picked a WR in forever and he is not even close to what I want in terms of skillset. But it is what it is. I just have a feeling that a few weeks into the season we are going to be in the same position as we were last year. We'll play a few good games on offense coming out of the gate but as soon as the scheme is on tape, we'll struggle to push the ball down the field again because teams don't have to respect any of our WRs long speed down the field. They'll move their safeties up and just clog everything up within 20-25 yards of the LOS and dare us to try and beat them over the top and we just wont have the horses to do it. Hope I'm wrong and a guy like Shavers of KJ Hamler come out of nowhere and find a way to make an impact on the offense down the field. Just not holding my breath.

Absolutely a bit of a troll in there..... He knows all he is going to hear about in the post draft presser is about him not addressing the offense in any meaningful way. Now he can say he took a WR that has upside that they had rated higher on their board. If he would have taken another defensive player, it would have been a long presser about the players he didn't take insead of the ones he did. He has to know he still has to address the WR position. He just has to know. We can't go into the season with the guys we have on this roster.

Just once I would love a couple teams to trade for "future considerations." Not trade for them necessarily, but cash them in. You used to hear it all the time......so and so traded to team x for player x and "future considerations." I just want to see at the end of the 7th round "Team X has traded the 241st pick in the draft to Team Y for the future considerations they were owed from 2013." Just think it would be some fun for a round that drags by every year. Ugh....almost there.

I've watched him play so many times and never once did I come away completely wowed. Just never really saw "IT" with him. We need a backup, but I don't need it to be him at all.

I don't know where teams have him ranked, but with our team and the way it's built, a 7th rounder isn't making the roster. Practice Squad, sure. So, I would have no problem giving this kid and his family the thrill of a lifetime and drafting him with our last pick if he's still there.

Still a bunch of picks to go, but it will be very telling on how bad the Bond situation is if the Chiefs or Ravens don't end up picking him.

A lot of people out there saying we aren't help Josh Allen. And, while I can agree with that, I think the Bills are looking at it a bit differently. It looks to me they are jut telling Josh, go out and do what you have done the last few years and we will do everything in our power to make sure the defense doesn't let you down in big spots again. And finding a way to make that 1 last stop is how they think they are helping Allen. Now, to me, I think Allen is the best QB in the league and instead of playing to your strength, you are holding him back. Sure, we score 30 a game. Great. You know what's better? Scoring 35-40. Surround the dude with fast, explosive talent and just run teams out of the building. But that's just now how they want to go about it. The good news is, that we can score 30 with this offense and that we are only a couple of trades away for legit WRs from getting to that next level. I am just not sure Beane is going to try and make those deals at this point.

All this talk about Bond...... Look, I am sure the Bills and every other team have looked into this as much as possible and it's become pretty obvious there is something there to be worried about or someone would have taken a swing already. He was, in my opinion anyways, a 3rd/4th round talent. We're getting late in the 5th and nobody has touched him. Not ever a rumble about him. So, without us knowing what the teams know, it is tough to watch a talented guy that seems to fit everything we need continue to fall, but I trust the organization's thoughts on the situation. All that said, Beane needs to get us a legit WR and I am not sure it is happening in this draft. It's easy to say the offense will be fine because we didn't have a star last season, but let's not pretend that once our offense was put on tape the first 3-4 weeks that we struggled once teams figured out what we were doing and it was like pulling teeth to score for a while and we were forced to go add Cooper to the mix to try and jumpstart the offense. It worked, but not quite to the full extent we were hoping. We need to find a legit field stretcher that teams have to prepare for. I am pretty sure that answer is not in this draft, though. It will be up to Beane to explore trade options and to pay attention to the FA market going forward.

Out of all the picks we have made so far, this one offers the most value and probably the highest floor and ceiling. Going into the draft, I did a lot of work on him, especially when I heard how many times the Bills met with him and called him. It was almost like they had already drafted him and they were in constant contact with him making sure he was doing the right things to get ready for the season! HA! Obviously, that isn't the case, but you could feel the interest was genuine and could tell after watching just a little of his tape that the guy screamed "Buffalo Bills" as there is just a lot to love. You start with the guy himself. You couldn't ask for a nicer young man with his priorities in order. Mature far beyond his age. He lives and breathes ball and his passion for the game seems second to none. His motor is non stop. He's a great teammate and his guys love him and follow him. He's a leader. He's an alpha. He beats guys super fast with great hand usage, but even when he doesn't win right away, he stays with the play and never quits fighting where you see a lot of guys just phone it in after their initial move doesn't work. He is relentless. Smart player that recognizes what he sees pretty quickly and rarely is fooled on a play. Uses his length very well which makes him good against the run as well as the pass. Quite honestly, while most had him rated as a 2nd rounder (as I did before the draft), when you watch him, you see so many flashes and great athletic traits, sometimes you go back and wonder why you don't have him rated even higher. The fact we got him in the 3rd is just wild to me. Many on here that have never watched him are looking at him like another Epenesa. I've got news for you.....this dude is an Epenesa replacement. Epenesa is not in the same class athletically as this guy. Whereas AJ would have 1 great game and then disappear for 3 weeks, you won't get that from this guy. He works so hard on every snap that he will find a way to make an impact in some way. So yeah.....I am raving about him. Why did he last until the 3rd round then? That's a good question and I am not exactly sure why he fell as far as he did. He's not a finished product by any means. Right now, he wins with his hands and relies on his speed to get around the edge along with his relentless work ethic. He can win inside as well, but his pass rush arsenal is a little limited. You won't see him bust out a spin move or use a bull rush as much as you like. He's a technique guy. So, what he will have to do is develop a couple more moves so when tackles take away the outside, he can counter and win in other ways. He's only here one season most likely, but this dude should be attached to Bosa's hip and soak up as much knowledge as possible. I kind of wish Von was still here as well because I think he could have learned a lot from him in terms of developing his secondary rush plans. But with his work ethic, I am confident with the right coaching and direction, he will figure this out. But make no mistake about it. This guy will be as good as he wants to be. He has every physical tool you could ask for. There are some that have thrown out the Maxx Crosby comparison. You almost hate to do that with anyone because Crosby is on such a high level, but when you watch him, you can see why the comparison is made. He plays with the same relentless motor. He is all out every play. He said it a lot in his press conference, but it's true.....he's a dog. So, when I say he has a high floor, I mean that he will be a solid contributor for this team for many years to come. When I say he has a high ceiling, I mean that he absolutely has the potential to become a game wrecker.

Love the traits and he would be perfect with one of our 3 fifth rounders. He just doesn't have a route tree at all. He runs a go, a post, and a slant. That's about it. The rest of it needs work. But, you don't see guys 6'5" running 4.3 very often. I would be happy to take him and see if he can expand that route tree. In the short term, though, just put him on the field once in a while and just let him run and hope to hit a few.

Way too early. You will have a chance at him probably for a couple rounds to come.

He's not the big space eater that many wanted, but I think this pick make it crystal clear what their true mission was heading into next season: WE HAVE TO GET OFF THE FIELD ON 3RD DOWN No....this isn't about stuffing the run on first and second down. This is about affecting the QB and forcing the QB to get rid of the ball. While not a true 1 tech, he can play there and you will absolutely see him lining up next to Oliver on 3rd down. They are looking at lining up Groot, Sanders, Oliver, and Bosa with the potential of Solomon coming off the edge (if he takes the next step in his development) on 3rd down. They are sending pressure up the middle and from the outside to make the QB throw in under 2.5 seconds against our secondary that has one of the best in the league in Benford and a very talented rookie in Hairston or a rejuvenated Tre White if he returns to form. They are going to try and force mistakes and speed up the process. That said, don't discount his ability against the run. He's not bad at it by any means. He plays with violent hands and a lot of power while having some twitch to his game as well. He is going to compliment Oliver nicely because Ed like to get up field using quickness and technique whereas Sanders relies on throwing guys around and using his physicality to affect the passer. The beautiful thing here is that if we want a true space eater to chew up first and second down, there are plenty of those types that will be available throughout the rest of the draft. We still need at least 1 more DT just to fill out the roster, so there is still a chance to double dip and get a guy to anchor on obvious run downs if we want one. Make no mistake about it, Sanders is an absolute scheme fit and will definitely help us be better on 3rd downs which have been a problem for us for a very long time. At this point, I am not against grabbing a guy like Watts or doubling up on CB to round out this defense in round 3.

I think they came all the way from 52

Yeah......I don't get some of the people trying to compare him to Elam. They couldn't be any more different as players. Elam was a man coverage guy that had very little zone experience. He was a handsy guy in college and was never able to shed that in the NFL. And he never grasped zone concepts at all. So, when you are a man coverage guy that can't play man very well and could never understand zone concepts, you are probably not going to work on a primarily zone scheme. In contrast, Max is primarily a zone guy (over 75% of his coverage snaps were in zone) with good man coverage skills that can get better with proper coaching. They are completely different prospects. Comparing the 2 is just lazy.

I can understand where the confusion comes in with this. I have been reading write ups that tell 2 different stories. Some call him a zone corner. Some call him a man corner. What I will say is, based on my tape breakdowns anyway, is that he is a very good zone-match CB with solid man coverage skills. He did play off a lot matching switch releases reading the QB and then driving on the ball with his great speed. But, there were plenty of times where they lined him up on an island and he played press man or played off a bit but used great trail technique to stay in the WRs hip pocket. If you are interested to see a little bit of everything he does, including the good and the bad, go watch his game against Texas and watch him go against Golden and Bond. He wins a bunch, but loses as well in man coverage. There are also good examples of him in zone coverage where he recognizes the play and drives on the ball to limit RAC or force an incompletion. You will also see him miss a tackle or 2 that led to bigger plays, but I do think at least one of those was a busted coverage or just a bad call. Regardless, you will see him play in all types of coverages. There is one play that really stand out int this game that showcases who he is as a corner. He's lined up on Bond who looks like he is running a go but Bond sticks his foot in the ground and turns it into a post. But, after initially getting beat, Max catches up to Bond very quickly (Bond runs in the 4.3s by the way) and high points the ball in the endzone and knocks it away. It is just a beautiful play. Maybe the throw could have been a bit better, but that's the way it goes and Max made the play. So, what is he? I'd call him an excellent zone-match defender with solid man coverage skills that can improve with proper coaching and adding a bit more weight to hold up better against certain types of WRs. Hope this helps!

Solid pick. Great speed and recovery ability. Doesn't back down even against bigger WRs. May not win every battle, but he will absolutely compete until the end of the play. Not a great tackler, but is a willing tackler. If he can put on a little weight and sturdy his body up, I think he could be really good. Right now, he will be a better zone corner than a man corner, but it's not like he's bad at it. I mean, he's pretty good in man now, but he does get boddied from time to time. Great attitude and teammate. Quite honestly, I love that Tre is here for him to learn from. They are kind of similar in a lot of ways except he has a lot more speed than Tre. But I think he can learn a lot from a guy like Tre and it may accelerate his development. They will compete for the same spot. May the best man win!

UGH.....This is turning the wrong way very quickly.

That one hurts.....

This is the start of a potentially bad stretch for our board. Lots of teams with the same needs we have. Gonna have to dodge a lot of bullets over the next several picks. And, if there is a guy that Beane really wants, he may have to make a move in the next 5-7 picks.

I like Grant. Don't love him. I think there are better DTs still there and this a reach if you ask me. Others like him more than I do, though.