2003Contenders
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Maybe the front office can land another guy who used to be a starter and is willing to take a step back and play behind Josh in hopes of resurrecting his career: Carson Wentz?
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Remember when the Bills FO took all Texas players off their draft boards? That is how we wound up with Maybin instead of Orakpo.
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That draft -- as bad as the Maybin pick was with the first pick -- was actually a nice primer for what the front office should be looking to do in THIS draft to bolster the OL. Spend a late 1st rounder on a solid interior lineman -- then combine a 3rd and 4th to move back into the 2nd round to grab another (Levitre in 2009).
They could do the same thing this time around -- and still maintain their own original 2nd round pick to grab a player at another position (WR, S, LB, etc.)
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1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:
Both sides of the ball failed hard that game. I'd say the Offense failed harder. That's all.
I think that is fair. Also, hard to take away very much from that game at all as the entire team was "off".
Still, third season in a row -- 4th if you count the 2nd-half meltdown against the Texans in 2019 -- where the team was eliminated from the playoffs with a poor showing by the defense.
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55 minutes ago, Gugny said:
I think it's more likely (and accurate) to say that the Dolphins (as a team and an organization) underachieved during Marino's tenure after getting to the Super Bowl.
And before anyone pokes fun at them or calls them out, this is exactly what we're seeing with the Bills and Josh Allen's tenure ... minus going to a Super Bowl.
That is a good point about the Dolphins under-achieving, largely because their front office let Marino down. That said, theirs did it in a different way than ours has with Allen. Miami did, in fact, surround Marino with top level WRs (the Marx brothers, etc.) and built a quality offensive line to protect him. Let's hope that Beane can make the right moves to fortify the OL to better protect Josh. And adding another quality WR (or 2) would not hurt.
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Yes. Tony Romo, who did Bills games multiple times during Josh's elbow injury pretty much stated this repeatedly: it may seem counterintuitive but the short "touch" passes place much more stress on the elbow than the downfield passes.
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Jackson (who desperately needs to hire a quality agent) has to get it through his head that the Browns deal with Watson was an aberration and is accepted as such around the league -- and should not be viewed in any way as some sort of "starting point" in negotiations.
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It's funny. At this time last year many of us were wanting the Bills to trade UP because the roster seemed so deep, and we just needed a couple of impact players at key positions. A year later we see that perhaps we overestimated the roster make-up -- and with the cap situation the Bills are in, there is unlikely to be much help gained from free agency.
Whether the team tries to trade up or down, I think they need to try to maximize picks in the first 3 rounds, as that is going to be the best shot at finding players that can contribute right away. If they see great value in the 2nd round, for example, maybe they trade down from the 1st and pick up an extra 3rd. With the offensive line being the greatest liability, you can normally find good players in the 2nd round, especially along the interior.
Another possibility, I would like to see the team do what they did a decade ago when they drafted Eric Wood late in the first -- and then combined a 3rd and 4th to move back into the late 2nd to take Levitre. Two solid interior linemen for the Bills. At the same time, they held onto their 2nd round pick and drafted Byrd there to play safety. If we can come away with 2 linemen like that coupled with the BAP in the 2nd round, I would be quite pleased.
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These lists are so subjective. Do you base it on physical talent? Accolades? Championships? Blazing trails? A combination?
It is also very difficult judging guys across different eras -- and different offensive schemes. Some (Bradshaw, Starr) were blessed with surrounding talent. Others... not so much.
Guys like Otto Graham (who won even more championships than Brady) and Johnny Unitas (who more or less defined the modern passing game) deserve to be considered.
While Dan Marino may have been the greatest PASSER who ever lived, I would not put him on a top 5 list. When it comes to Marino, I always thought of him in the same light that Jimmy Johnson once said when comparing Barry Sanders to E. Smith. He said that Barry may have been the greatest RUNNER because he was so dynamic with the ball in his hand. However, he said that Smith was the better RUNNING BACK because in addition to being a great runner, he was also great in pass protection, a quality receiver out of the backfield, and he knew when to lower his shoulder to get the tough few yards. In that vein I say Marino was arguably the greatest PASSER -- but his poor ball-handling skills, lack of mobility, and lack of post-season success places him further down the list as a great QUARTERBACK.
I also could never place Drew Brees on a list like this, although he posted insane numbers in his career. Yes, he was one of the most accurate QBs in NFL history, but he also thrived in good weather and dome conditions. I remember back in his 2nd (I believe) year in the league, the Chargers played us in Buffalo. He absolutely could NOT throw the ball in those conditions -- I am talking Chad Pennington level noodle-arm. The Chargers ending up benching him for Flutie in that game.
My top four would be (in no particular order)
J. Elway
J. Montana
P. Manning
T. Brady
Then it gets really difficult for me to figure out the 5th. I am leaning toward Unitas.
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There was a knee-jerk part of me after the game last week that said "it was just a bad day at the office" for the team. We routinely have one of those horrific games every year when the Bills get blown out by a team they should be able to handle. Last year it was the Colts. The year before, the Titans. Even dating back to the Kelly-era Bills we would have one of those games every year, usually get handled by a team like Pittsburgh or Kansas City. We did not have any such game this year (losing all 3 games in the regular season by 3 points or less). That is ... until it really mattered, in the playoffs.
But more careful inspection certainly shows the pattern of the defense coming up small in the playoffs. As many on here have pointed out, the game plan against the Bengals really was bad -- especially on defense, where DBs were playing a good 10 yards off the receivers, which allowed Burrow to get rid of the ball quickly. They should have known better after having just played the Bengals a few weeks before, and the Ravens had even provided a solid blueprint to beat Cinci in the Wildcard round. I know Frazier and McD have their preferred defensive scheme, but of they are going to be competitive against top teams, they are going to have to learn to be "multiple" and adapt based on the competition.
Offensively, everything starts with getting the OL corrected, Josh masked a number of those deficiencies with his off-radar escapability during the regular season. The Bengals made him feel uncomfortable from the start. In addition to correcting the protections, the receivers need to do a better job in "fire" situations. I notice that when Mahomes is in trouble there is almost always a receiver coming back to him as an outlet. In the Bills offense -- not so much.
Getting back to the Cinci game itself... as we know, these games are heavily dictated by emotion. I am not sure that the Bills ever quite recovered emotionally from the Hamlin injury. They got lucky the following week with 2 huge kick returns against the Pats -- and in the Wild Card round struggled to get past the Dolphins with a 3rd string QB. We saw yesterday what the Eagles were able to do against a 3rd string QB. To start the Divisional game the Bengals marched down the field and scored easily -- the Bills responded with a 3-and-out series, and the Bengals marched down the field and scored again to go 14-0. You could just see the body language on almost every player at that time (midway through the 1st quarter) -- they knew it was over.
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Call me crazy -- but given the cap issues ahead, I am not excited about spending tons of money on another receiver, when that money needs to be better spent on fortifying the lines.
Josh is one of those QBs who elevates the value of his receivers. Not saying the Bill should dumpster dive -- but I would rather spend wisely on a RELIABLE receiver who runs decent routes and CATCHES the ball rather than a perceived stud. Maybe a guy who has been in a lousy situation with a bad QB for his career -- or a young guy that is ready to bust out with Josh and the surrounding talent at WR/TE to help him.
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The grades are pretty consistent with many posters' thoughts that the LG and RT positions need to be upgraded in a significant way. Saffold has no business being on the team at all. At best, Brown needs to be a backup/swing tackle. Even though Morse graded out reasonably well, due to his age and concussion history, the team needs to seriously consider making long term plans at the Center position too.
The good news is that finding a solution at LG and RT should not break the bank as reinforcements can be found in free agency and the early-to-middle rounds of the draft. Additional prospects can also be found in the later rounds. However, the front office is going to need to do a better job in both pro and college scouting to avoid making Saffold-type errors again.
If I were the one making the decisions, I would move Bates back to LG, where he played well in the past. Then bring in a solid veteran (not a castoff like Quisenberry) to play RT and invest a 1st or 2nd round draft pick on someone who can play RG (AND pick up other interior options in FA as well). Should also draft a couple more linemen in the middle/late rounds for competition/depth too.
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One of the great myths of the Cinci game is that the Bills went crazy trying to throw the ball downfield and did not even try the run or implement underneath routes.
All season long the short passing game was an extension of their run game, and that happened last Sunday too. For example, both scoring drives were loaded with short gains, which is why both drives seemingly took FOREVER to complete (one of them ending with just a field goal).
The real issue is that the Bengals got plenty of YAC on their plays, whereas the Bills got very little. Quite simply the Bengals were more physical at the point of attack and executed much better than the Bills did.
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46 minutes ago, Success said:
A lot of great points in the OP - but I'd still list Frazier as one of the problems.
His defenses here have been ranked high the past 3 years - but all 3 years, they have folded when it counted. We couldn't stop KC 2 years in a row, and this past Sunday was a debacle for the D. It's a good point that they adjusted, but Cincy moved the ball at will all day, and I felt like they could have scored more if they had to.
I don't know enough about schemes - but the scheme we play consistently seems too vanilla, too soft. It seems like we're always playing D to try to protect a lead, instead of genuinely trying to turn a game.
I think about when we had Schwarz. Did we have more talent then? I don't really think so. But he put his mark on that D - you could look at their play, and call it a Schwarz D. And they could dictate a game.
We have enough talent to do that now, but we don't. It doesn't look like the coaching will change much, and that's disappointing. I like Frazier & I was glad they hired him initially, but I feel like he's holding us back now.
Well, I would say that the defense set the tone with Mario Williams (in his prime), K. Williams (in his prime), M. Dareus (back when he was seriously motivated), and an up-and-coming J. Hughes. All four of those guys were arguably pro bowlers -- and all 4 flirted with double-digit sacks. If we still had a front four like that now, I suspect that McD and Frazier would be able to do more with this defense.
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2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:
All of these things are true:
- The Bills played their worst game of the season
- The Bills have problems in their lineup that were exposed (which all teams have in the salary cap era)
- The Bengals are a bad matchup.
There is also another thing. The Bengals wound themselves into a frenzy over a perceived slight due to ticket sales while the Bills cancelled practice on Saturday to have "Family Day." I think that explains a lot.
I agree with all of this.
I do also believe that the emotional highs/low of the season -- and the aftermath of Hamlin's injury in particular -- played a significant role. In the two games after the Monday night game, the Bills were able to build off the momentum of highly exciting starts -- the kickoff return against the Pats and jumping out to a big 14-0 lead over Miami. Against the Bengals on Sunday, once they got down early -- especially after the 3-and-out start on offense -- you could just sense that the wind was completely taken from their sails. And it wasn't just a few players that seemed drained -- it was virtually the entire team.
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More evidence that each of the teams that beat us this season viewed their contest against us as their Super Bowl. In fact, each of the three other teams clearly blew their wad in beating the Bills -- and had nothing left the following week. Not a good omen for Apple and the Bengals heading into KC.
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Lamar has really misplayed his hand here, I believe. He has a unique skill set that allows him to thrive in the sort of offensive scheme that the Ravens have specifically tailored for him. For that reason, it is clearly in both the Ravens AND Lamar's best interest to come to a reasonable deal.
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12 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson said:
What about John Brown?
Hope he gets the call-up against Miami. Back in 2020 he was money on those deep-crossing routes against the Dolphins.
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Because of Josh's unique talent and skill set, I think it is fair to say that he is able to defy the conventional thinking on any given play. The play to close out the first half certainly comes to mind. Any decent coach would say that what Josh did there was NOT what you are supposed to do, when a sure 3 points are potentially abandoned. However, the OUTCOME of the play is that the Bills scored 7 points instead.
It's is almost like evaluators like Warner feel compelled to tell the viewers at home, "do not try this on your own".
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1 hour ago, Draconator said:
How the guy who was attacked was able to stand up and yell is amazing. One tough SOB.
Was thinking the same thing. Makes me wonder if maybe the dude previously whipped McG one-on-one in a fair fight — and this gang-up was retaliation.
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32 minutes ago, Logic said:
I was just on the Jets forum.
One of the posters actually said these words: "Comparing our roster to the Bills' roster, this is a game the Jets should win".
L O LIf they actually had a QB, this would not be so far-fetched.
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Turnovers are always a key stat in wins/losses, but I bet it is even more so for a team like the Bills. The dropped INTs and unrecovered fumbles really are noteworthy, especially for a bend-but-don't break defense like the Bills'. The defense is built to force the opponent to drive the distance of the field, requiring more plays to hit pay-dirt -- and, consequently, more opportunities for something bad (for the offense) to happen. When the defense fails to cash in on turnover opportunities, it can lead to a long day.
Probably the most glaring non-turnover that strikes me, was in the Jets game. Thanks to a successful fake punt, the Jets held the ball for about 9 minutes before Miller got the strip sack on Wilson -- creating a fumble that WAS recovered by the Bills. Alas, Josh immediately throws an interception that puts the Jets right back into scoring range. (Despite all of the red zone INTs, this to me was Josh's most egregious turnover... but I will save that for another discussion!) Anyway, on the very next play, the Jets run a toss sweep and Garrett Wilson fumbles the ball. He doesn't just fumble the ball, he sends it flying 10+ yards downfield -- yet somehow with multiple Bills defenders in the proximity, Wilson is able to recover the ball himself. We all know what happened next.
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38 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
I think the Dolphins was the game they had to do the most to lose in terms of not making plays that were there and how they still dominated the game even with all the injuries, heat and 4th quarter players dropping like flies...
Jets game is the one I'd say they didn't do enough to win even tho they were the better team.
I definitely agree. It took some crazy things to happen in both the Miami and Minny games to proverbially ***** defeat from the jaws of victory. In the Jets game, the Jets honestly out-played and out-coached the Bills -- won the game in the battle of the trenches as well as the time-of-possession.
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On 11/16/2022 at 11:34 AM, msw2112 said:
Not all interceptions and turnovers are the same. Ones that occur on the goal line, in the red zone, and in OT are much worse and cost the team games.
That said, I agree with you that Allen will bounce back, set more records and get better.
Agreed. I would also add that INTs are also a reflection of a QB's willingness to take calculated risks. That Josh has thrown a lot of INTs is also an indirect indicator that he has also made some sensational plays by trusting himself (and his teammates) in numerous situations where another QB may not have -- the game winning TD against KC, for example.
As a comparison of the opposite extreme, I present to you Tyrod Taylor, who almost NEVER threw INTs -- but was way too timid to ever put the ball in "harm's way". I think we all agree that Josh is the better of the two. He just needs to be smarter about when it is time to take those risks -- and when there is no reason to do so.
Possible McKenzie Replacement Bills sign Deonte Harty (formally Deonte Harris)
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Great work, MAJBobby!