Hplarrm

I think TD used that dime a dozen phrase when he was justifying the cutting of Steve Christie. Unless folks have conveniently forgotten, this then triggered a course of events which saw: 1. A series of Jake Ariens debacles where kick were missed. 2. Shayne Graham being signed and also failing to do the job (which led to him being cutted by us but then resigned eventually with Cincy where he was money in the bank there for a few years until he wasn't) 3. TD had to spend heavily to finally get the new savior Lindell (who had his rocky moments initially until he too has been money in the bank for us until some recent burps. 4. Christie not only went on to play several more years but actually had a number of notable games (including one day I think he hit 5 FGs in one game. The simple fact is that even if were true that good kickers are a dime a dozen (its not) there are several dozen kickers our there to choose from and it really is difficult to find the mere one kicker that works for your team amidst the dozens out there. The Bills need to keep Lindell until they are forced not to do so because he demonstrably and consistently goes south in terms of making key kicks. Lindell is not there yet in terms of being a problem. If you think he is then specifically who do you advocate we get to replace him. Unless you have a specific alternative then merely getting your panties all up in a wad about him when this team has far more important and immediate problems to work on (like the pass rush, the OL and filling out the 3-4 D) makes whining about Lindell (particularly after a win) seem pretty mindless.

Getting a push as you phrase it is a key part of the life of being a kicker in the NFL. It is merely a question of not whether there should be a push but whether the TEAM is most helped by there being a BOG push which pointedly demands performance (OR ELSE), a low-key push which always demands excellence but there is little public campaign or reflection of this, or push the guy out the door. Lindell actually has gotten pointed push in his career as a Bill when he missed a critical should have been a gimme pick under 40 yards against Pitts in his second year (this kick, difference maker Clements laying a return on the carpet, the DL completely failing to stop a Pitts 3rd string RB from racking up 100+ yards, and finally Bledsoe failing to lead the team back from all these errors led to a loss in a playoff significant game. As far as Lindell, none other than TD worked with him several entire practices having him kick the ball again and again and again from 45 or so yards while TD verbally kept saying that the clock was ticking down and the game and the season was on the line. Lindell stepped up to this pointed pressure and has pretty much been money for the Bills since that time (for example he just missed his FIRST PAT in his entire career). My sense is that the constant pressure to do perfect needs to be part of the Bills work with Lindell. However, kicking is such a mental game and confidence (even false confidence on a windy day kicking into the tunnel in OT is needed to make the kick) is such a huge part of it, the good ST and HC needs to be judicious in how public they make the demand for perfection. My sense is that NO ONE on TSW has yet to make what should actually be a fairly confirmable case based on real stats that he is a problem. I do not think his kicking even in late game situations is a problem (YET). Sure he missed a PAT a couple of weeks ago (again the first in his career). Yep he missed a makeable FG (he in fact did make it the first time but the opposing coach called TO just before the snap. However, beyond the broad subjective rantings a few folks have made in this thread that he is missing a lot (most, some, any) makeable late game kicks NO ONE HAS PRESENTED THE STATISTICAL CASE OF A BUNCH OF KEY MISSES). If one is gonna complain this should be easy to indicate and quite possible to show. Advice to DeHaven and Gailey (not needed for sure but its a fan's right to do this): 1. Keep the consistent and constant pressure on Lindell to be perfect, but do this fairly quietly at this point as the game itself and loyalty to one's teammates will be doing this job all the time. 2. No need to be pointed in your criticism (YET) but episodes like he missed rekick and the PAT should put Lindell on your watch list. 3. Us fans need to be able to make some reality based claim of problems (site the specific games or the compiled stats of his missing in critical situations) or simply shut up.

Actually real life says that while yes good drafting is one big key to team building it is no way the only way a team builds a winner. In fact doom seems most likely to be found if one locks into focusing only on one aspect of team building. If it was so easy and so clearly rote then this would not be a problem, You simplify things too much.

He always was a solid guy for the community. I met him several times when he used his fame and notariety to support transplant donation for the local group working on that issue. I also remember running into him at an annual dinner honoring 30 or so high school kids in the City of Buffalo who had graduated with support of local programs and now for the most part were headed off to colleges. He also ran a motorcycle rally as he drove a big hog that attracted national participation by athletes across the country who were into motorcycles which raised money for charitable causes. For all the grief he was given publicly about whether he deserved a player his consistent making the Pro Bowl, (he certainly did not deserve to be sited as the best in this popularity contest every year IMHO)he a;ways seemed to have his priorities straight as to what was really important.

Actually it was my understanding that the big difference between the old CBA and the new one is that under the old syste, there was a designated gross which made up the cap which consisted of huge items like TV revenue and smaller items like regular ticket sake but did NOT include revenue from items like premium seats such as luxury suites. Under this system NFL owners like Mr. Ralph took actions like adding a bunch of "premium" seats such as the heated seats at the Ralph and did this in part by reducing the overall capacity and number of regular tickets. This move though it directly reduced the salary cap and payments to players was simply ignored by the NFLPA as actually regular ticket are chump change in terms of revenue compared to the far larger take from the TV networks (in fact the thinking in the NFL has slowly changed to realize that actually any blackout is stupid as the NFL does far better advertising their product through broadcasts than the relatively small amount of revenue from tickets sales and premium seats. Gene Upshaw and the NFLPA thought it was fine to let the owners have a few dollars with DGR as he publicly stated that the new CBA would see the cap determined by total revenues rather than DGR and from his perspective the new take for the players from the total revenue gained by teams for NFL games needed to start with a six. As it happened, Paul Tagliaboo-boo, the keepers of the Pete Rozelle legacy and team owners like Jerry Jones basically forced stick in the mud owners like Mr. Ralph to bend over and say can I have another and accept the current CBA because even though the owner % was smaller than it was back in the day when the team owners could pretend to operate under a free-market, the team owners simply made more money with labor peace virtually guaranteeing production of a product the nets would pay billions for. My understanding is that total team revenues are the determinant of the salary cap and how much the players get and the old DGR method where owners tried to maximize their premium seat take because they did not have to share it is not the way the league operates under the current CBA.

Not this season for sure.

The difference is not that talented players do not guess, the difference is that talented players are mentally in control of the game so that they guess correctly. Alternately when they are fooled mentally, they are talented players because they have the physical ability to either reverse field suddenly when they make a mistake or make a play anyway even when they are out of position (the best play I ever saw by one of the best Bruce Smith was a run play where he was fooled badly but despite being out of position he got one paw on the runner and brought him down. The Bills need to focus on getting players with the right combo of mental and physical talent. Everybody guesses in this league you need to get guys who either guess right or if not they are physically gifted enough to deal with their miscues.

The problem here actually seems to be a failure in your deductive reasoning. You seem to be both ignoring the facts which surrounded his development of bad pro habits and also failing to see cases of actual occurrences on gameday which seem pretty clearly linked to why Losman was a failure here. The things which your deductive reasoning seems to choose to ignore for some reason even though they seem clearly related to Losman's failings as a Bill are: 1. He pretty clearly seemed to suffer as a pro having played in a run for your life offense behind a turnstile OL at Tulane. In Losman's case and in Edward's case, the Bills seem to want the player to perform in a manner which was different from how he had excelled in other cases. If one watched the games on Sunday's one could actually see Losman perform best on plays where things broke down and he had to look and react and perform poorly on designed plays where he seemed to throw the ball repetitively into the turf on short passes (when he and Evans hooked up a noticeable number of times on long bombs. The best play I saw him make was actually on a play where the center hiked it over his head, he turned and caught it on the bounce, kept looking downfield while running for his life and found Gaines for a first down. The occaisional play did show some pretty good football habits and instincts. Just no consistent enough to be a winner but not brainless either. 2. you seem to fail to understand that the freelance style which seem to suit JPs limitations and strengths better actually requires a good understanding of the D and O schemes to work. True, he did not consistently display a consistent successful application of these schemes to merit keeping him. However, the problem was not one of him throwing consistently to the wrong guy, but seemingly having a problem multi-tasking and performing basic tasks like throwing accurately to the right guy. 3. JP clearly understood his weakenesses and strengths and was not simply braindead as you seem to imply. When Bledsoe got let go after TD was forced to admit how stupid he was to extend him, JP himself declared that he had not won the job the way it needed to be won. he was not clueless, he was right on target about his limitations.

Maybe his is done physically and will not play well. I am not a doctor, have not inspected his X-Rays and do not know (do you?). Realistically though: 1. It pays dividends for this team to try to get better. In fact, if this team is merely playing for draft position this year and wants to lose, my sense is that actually by fostering a losing ethic the team will actually need a good three years to recover from that IF it brought in a series of new players who kill and replace this losing attitude. 2. Both the last two games were losses, but there is a difference between losing these games in OT trying to win and if the boys had simply just rolled over and died in the 2nd half without even trying. In and of itself, Merrimen is a low risk/potentially high reward player who I think the Bills help themselves by trying to get better. 3. franchising him? Who knows it depends upon reality. Yeah it might make sense in an extremely limited case but only Kreskin knows.

Actually, 1. We miss the playoffs with or without him so I am not even sure what point you are making here. 2. No team should ever be playing to lose games to improve draft position. In order to win, a team must never say die. If it does it will die. In fact, if this becomes the attitude it will simply take additional years to change this ethic. Operating to get better draft position this year strikes me as something one would need a good three years to recover from. 3. There simply is no LB on this team who needs development PT time with a reasonable chance of becoming a solid Bill who will lose it due to Merriman being here. Maybin is actually the only youngster who has the "possible" skillset, but he can be inactive as a healthy scratch either with or without Merrimen around. 4. Grown-ups realize this is the NFL and almost every player may not be around. How you can know the future Kreskin is an interesting trick. You might understand better if you can imagine him staying here. He probably will not be here (it seems equally likely we may not want him if the injury problem which led to SD benching him is actually that bad)but, 1. This whole thing is for a short time (9 games or even 2-3 years if he were to resign). I have no problem imagining him playing as well as he can as he does a 9 game audition to impress the NFL for his next contract. I even have no problem imagining the Bills either getting a nice piece of compensation when this FA departs for a big contract (this assumes he auditions well for us in the next 9) or we pay him the big bucks to keep him so he can buy an extra thousand feet in his next estate back home or in Hawaii, or we cut him because he is done. 2. As a vet he has already seen the country and he is likely going back home or he has picked a place. His next contract is not likely to be about finding the best weather, but simply about cashing in so he can build a bigger home wherever he goes. If he performs and builds a fan base here in the next nine. its not hard at all for me to IMAGINE the Bills paying him what the market demands plus whatever weather premium we need to pay. The bills will do this IF it benefits the Bills.

Alsp, a couple of things probably fail to resonate with folks from the way you asked the question. 1. You ask where is the "outrage". Outrage seems to be all the thing in these days of on the edge internet posting and baseball electoral concession speeches. However, in terms of watching football or even loving the Bills, being bothered, miffed, pissed or something milder than outrage would seem to be asking for something folks really feel. 2. Equivalency- you seem to assume or imply some type of equivalency between all these acts. Many of them seem quite reprehensible, but given that in some cases the horrible person involved was found guilty but others no charges were even filed. There simply is not equivalency here so an expectation of equivalent "outrage" is something you will not (and should not) see.

There really only two questions: 1, Is he better than what we got? 2. Can Mr. Ralph and the salary cap afford him? The answers: 1. A better LB than the current Bills roster is a pretty low bar and since Merrimen must pass a physical before he is cut the answer is YES. The other issue which goes along with the straight player assessment is team building so his personality at least needs to be acceptable (this is why you do not pick-up Moss unless he makes a playoff difference for your team or if having him around interferes with the development of a youngster (unfortunately not a prob for us). 2/ Can your owner and the salary cap of your affod this? The answer seems to be YES to both questions,

I think there is a fairly strong record of Mr. Ralph using the ability has as the sole owner to exercise control over football (on field aspects of the game that I among others feel that their are better people to hire for that rather than have Mr. Ralph exercise his right). The particulars of him using his right to meddle (or decisions made that involved laying out big money where he almost certainly had a role are: They are: 1. Ralph made a "handshake" agreement with Jimbo to reward him in his next contract which was a poor football judgment by Mr. Ralph as Jimbo was out of the league. Would have a professional make a different judgment? One cannot tell whether Butler made the same bad judgment, but even this non professional outsider was surprised when they did not draft an heir apparent for Kelly the year before they stretched and rushed to pick Todd Collins in the 2nd round. They then rushed to have him start to replace the fallen Kelly when he obviously needed to have the happy feet trained out of him (if they ever could have done this). 2. The Bills continued the Don quixotic like quest which only Mr. Ralph could have started with the poor football judgment about Jimbo by the team trading first day draft pick value for Billy Joe Hobert. Was Mr. Ralph the cause of this? Who knows for sure but in a buck stops here way one actually can blame here for not meddling and stopping acquiring a player who was so bad he needed to be cut mid-season. 3. The Bills made a great football judgment when they signed Flutie. However, they then signed RJ. This signing was not a problem as actually the trade value given up for RJ though high appeared to be about the going rate for a vet QB with one quality game to his credit. Where they goofed up was to then give RJ a guaranteed deal before he proved he was not injury prone (a rational concern as in addition to his one quality game he got knocked out of his next one. One can credibly game the football guys for this miscue without evidence of Mr. Ralph exercising his owners right to meddle even if its stupid. However, one has to reasonably doubt how they could have delivered so much of Mr. Ralph's money (the bonus is paid up front and definitely impacted the cash flow of a business Mr. Ralph is sole owner of) without him at least knowing and checking of on this deal. Even worse, this deal went back on the apparent Bills word that at least promised Flutie a real tryout for starting QB (which he did not get once JP got the big guaranteed $). Even worse than that the contracts since they guaranteed RJs money and its cap hit and then also forced them by either agreement or rule to not only take the cap hit for DFs obtained bonuses but also made his bonuses part of his base salary which then forced the Bills to extend his contract to pro-rate the bonus and new base salary over a longer deal. Either Mr. Ralph knew or it would have been malfeasance for him not to know. 4. I am not taking the time to look for the link (but if you can actually make the case against the first three points I will find this). After a RJ led team mopped up an Indy team which had already given up seeing on the scoreboard that the team they needed to lose for them to gain anything in playoff position from a win (and after seeing Corny Bennett who was their LB go down with a season-ending injury early in the Bills game) they coasted and RJ rolled. Mr. Ralph went on record when the press asked him which QB should start the next playoff game by saying you just saw the Indy game so who do you think. RJ started the playoff game and though he left the field with a lead it was the last time the Bills saw the playoffs after the owner spoke. 5. Likewise I will look up the links if you really demonstrate the interest by responding to these particulars, but Mr. Ralph also meddled in an issue that should have been left to smarter football heads when he tried to renege on what he contractually agreed to when he canned Wade (who did deserve to be canned when he publicly surrendered when there was a small mathematical chance of making the playoff, but he also deserved to have his agreement with the Bills honored, Folks publicly told Mr. Ralph he was wasting his time and the Bills political capital with this quest and he lost. The personal capital issue is important because even though the episodes above are based in fact and the following is a guess, my guess is that Butler played him and skipped town likely cause he was pissed at Ralph and meddling in the above areas is not an unlikely theory as to why. Further his election to the HOF was delayed for some reason and my GUESS is that the cavalier way he ignored the salary cap and CBA with the handshake deal only he could make was a part of this. I think this is the Mr.Ralph record. Do you have some other credible explanation?

yet

Specifically (as the little woman is off for a girls' weekend in NYC and I have nothing on the agenda until this evening- Marcus Stroud- On the backend of his career and not a hidden gem- highest and best use may be situational but too big a cap hit for this role Kyle Williams- a far better player than expected from his pre-draft pronosticating and he has improved with his play. However, not hidden at all and play which won him Pro Bowl alternate status is likely best he will do. Chris Kelsay- must be an incredibly solid character guy or he has compromising pictures of Littman and Mr. Ralph as his play on the field does not at all merit the two huge contracts post draft he has gotten from the Bills Paul Posluszny - a hidden gem only to the extent that his injuries and his performance on the field have not lived up to his lofty second round pick status. I think he could become a reasonable flexible starter quality LB in the NFL (a Kavika Mitchell level player) but not only is he not hidden but there still remain injury questions that make it hard to rely on his good brain and some good speed. Dwan Edwards- Also not hidden from anyone as his previous play has scored him a pretty good contract from the Bills but it appears doubtful he can carry a team on his substantial shoulders but can be a good player with a good team around him. Torell Troup- so far so good as he clearly has not singlehandedly made this a good team against the rush (did anyone really expect that would be the case). However, his simplu a mammoth guy and you cannot teach size. Being able to credibly get PT is good enough so far for a youngster (Maybin has shown how bad it can be for ranking or utilizing a young player, Reggie Torbor- journeyman who has stepped up nicely to a starter role because the Bills were forced to do so. No expectations he can be a hidden gem. Andra Davis- another Kavika Mitchell level player, He may even win you one or two games a season with crunchtime plays but is neither hidden nor good enough to lead a team like a Ray Lewis does. Not being as good as the best is not the requirement for adequacy but no one should fool themselves that he is the best LB ever. Spencer Johnson- Another adequate but not great player- I would say he has made a couple of nice plays that impressed me but I have seen nothing by which I would say he is a hidden gem. Antonio Coleman-No secret he is a back-up level player at best Akin Ayodele - also no secret about this back-up level player Alex Carrington - I do have not seen him even around for many snaps so the jury is still way out Arthur Moats- some impressive plays during pre-season but if this guy is gonna contribute for us its gonna be on ST. Keith Ellison- not a surprise anymore and can play the pass well but no one mistakes him for a run stopper John McCargo- he's still cashing paychecks from this team? Oh yeah a hidden anti-gem Aaron Maybin- He's still cashing paychecks from this team. Oh yeah, maybe he will blossom when they dhift him to safety. Reggie Torbor- actually already over his head a bit as a starter. Arthur Moats- he actually might be a hidden gem as a special teamer, And the rest- though personally I prefer the Professor and Mary Anne --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting article which confirms a couple of things for me: 1. The Bills are least a player and a half away from being the OL we want them to be. This assumes: LeVitre continues to develop and is a quality fixture at LG- a good bet. Bell continues to develop and is at least an adequate player at LT- a 50/50 bet- he is a talented athlete who will get even better with time but early injury issues make this a 50/50 shot at best Right tackle is a void that must be filled- right now its Cordero- its a marginal shot I would put at about 10% Hamgartner is smart player from playing at several positions but this simply points to him being a good C with a lot of help and I like him better at G A vet yes but not nearing retirement- 50/50 to be the C we need but 75% to be the G we need Wood- Solid player with great natural healing ability and determination to boot- 75% chance of being the G or C we need. Add a new RT and a swing guy and we are good to go after a year of developing chemistry next year. 2. As long as Fitz stays healthy this puts a fork in the killer move of drafting a QB in the 1st. Gailey has a clear MO of taking previously failed QBs and somehow building an O they can fit into to get significant production out of them, As enthralled as some Bills fan are in the notion of drafting a "franchise" QB in the 1st, if we took this route AND the player turned out to Peyton Manning rather than Ryan Leaf, (Joey Harrington, Akili Smith whathisname Oakland wasted a pick on or the cast of many others, drafting a QB in the first would likely be fatal to this team. The sad thing is that this is true even if he worked out to be a great one. Imagine Peyton Manning's first year on his way to a brilliant career but then do this without the significant investment Indy had made in their OL even before Manning got there. Even with his quick release he led Indy to the same record with him as without him (which allowed them to get Edgerrin, Dungy, the best kicker in the NFL and the other pieces the best GM in the NFL put together so they could win it once. In the face of reality folks seem to want to claim it is only about the QB. Actually it is only about the TEAM. Gailey's history is one of getting production out of journeymen QBs who have seen a lot of games. I think it is even doubtful a rookie QB survives behind this line no matter how talented he is.

Add a quick release to the list of essentials. This is especially true for the QB who is gonna be playing behind an OL which appears to me to be at least a player and a half away from acceptability (the half comes from a credible back-up who can play multiple positions when the seemingly inevitable happens in the NFL and you lose a starter for a game or more(. One of the great things about Manning is that his lightening release covers up for any problems the OL experiences, this speed is gonna be essential for any Bills QB. It's interesting as such a release is a combination of many of the factors you mention (many you tab as crucial but some you describe as useful. The quick release of the ball to the receiver strikes me as a combo of not only having a solid arm, but also the ability to read defenses, trust your judgment and make quick decisions to throw the ball. You need to be fearless in trusting your receivers as you throw into tight spots but also they are going to make the same reads you do to throw to the hot receiver. Players are slow on the release for several reasons: JP was used to running for his life and often waited too long for a play to develop/ Bledsoe knew he was a big boy who could take a hit and often went into his pat pat pat as his fear of the sack was not great enough. Edwards was good at first but after the concussion seemed to lose his edge. Getting rid of the ball on time is a crucial element. It is one of the reasons I surprised some folks dubbed Claussen so NFL ready. Yes he had a leaders attitude and a refuse to lose approach which made him a natural, but his wind-up struck me as way too long for an NFL ready QB (particularly with our OL in progress).

I agree! Even the best QBs have an off day and were we to draft Luck when he has his off day Sully will crank up the presses, WGR will fill the airways, and a small but vocal group of (alleged) fans will wail that they told you so as they call for the adoration of a new savior to replace Luck. The key for the Bills is not to acquire any one player at any one position (be it QB or otherwise) but to build a team which is in fact a TEAM which with a bit of luck can withstand the ups and downs which come with any NFL season. The thing I like most about Fitz is that he has shown a clear set of skills which to this point had not been recognized (an ability to make decisions fast which as he gains experience appear to be increasingly good decisions, a nice set of wheels and the durability to take the hits which come with any run and the toughness to make them) which go along with a skillset we knew he had (an incredibly bright guy with a fairly good arm). However, the best thing about him is that Gailey appears to have found a skillset he can employ well in an offense but in the end he is eminently replaceable because his skillset is not so singular that as happens in today's big fast LB NFL one needs to always be prepared with plan B at QB.

My sense is that one of the most important stats put up by Manning that year was that he started all 16 games (I believe he was the only player in the entire NFL who can make the claim to have started all 16 of his team's games that year though as I think about it perhaps Favre might also make that claim). At any rate, for those who choose to look beyond one players stats to assess reality I think this stat points to 3 important things for the Bills looking to catch QB lightening in a bottle: 1. This shows the importance of the previous Indy investments in building their OL. I doubt Manning would even have survived 16 games as a rookie without having a young studly OL to protect him. The Bills this year are likely at least a player and a half away from having an adequate One need only look at how many times a game due to his vet ability to read play quickly and decide to run not only for his life, but because he is the NFLs answer to Bobby Douglas he has the skills to run for positive yardagw. I am sorry, but it seems pretty doubtful to me that a rookie QB would survive behind the new OL next year that will merely be struggling to get chemistry at best. 2. Mannings rookie year performance pointed to the most important skill he had which was a lightening fast release. Pretty much the best QB in football (or at least in the top 2 or 3 every year) had from the start a quick release but he still got sacked a lot for him and he threw INTs like any rookie learning to be a vet. If the Bills go with a rookie QB he cannot be a player like a Claussen who is a gamer but needs a couple of years before he is even at acceptable speeds for his release. If the Bills go for a franchise QB at #1 his first attribute particularly if we cannot strengthen the OL with our #1 as it went for a QB had better be his quick release or he will not survive, 3. Even as great a QB as Manning he did nothing for the Indy draft position. This town and its media are not known for being patient. If this new franchise QB follows a statistical course like Manning he likely will actually end up being like Favre or Steve Young, HOF players who got run out of town in the first gigs.

The only thing that I have a problem with in singing the praises of what Tom Brokaw has called the Greatest Generation compared to today's spoiled kids and their parents is that there is only one party to blame for the failings of baby boomers. The greatest generation really sucked as parents. One only has to see how self-centered the baby boomers and their offspring are to see that the Greatest Generation simply sucked at producing quality kids. For any indictment of modern society really the buck must stop with the greatest generation.

Exactly. Corporal punishment (aka a spanking in its most appropriate form) seems pretty clearly to be the right thing to do under certain circumstances and a broad claim that one should never ever strike a child in all cases seems incorrect to me. An irony here is that these ideological claims that there is only one way to do this correctly is generally the field of the PC, liberal, or touchy-feely parts of our species. However, it is the same problem of insisting on ideology over reality which is a central problem in the views of the ideologues over reality crew which makes up the right wing in this world. If one wanted a straight answer to what is wrong with America, then my answer would be EXTREMISM. We see this extremism both embodies in the lunacy of lefto crowd which claims no parent should ever spank their kid or promotes a thought police view of the world where no one can risk saying something that MIGHT offend someone else. However, the folks who advocate a doctrinaire right win view and demand ideology over reality are equally as guilty as the leftos among us. Quite frankly take your pick from the Sharon Angles, Christine O'Donnells, and Joe Millers of the world, the Tea Party is a neat idea of people taking an active role in politics but it has been overrun and empowers the nuts in the world. Perhaps there is someway to empower and organize a radical middle in the US which yes always questions authority, BUT just as fervently listens to the answers given to their questions and then works hard to find a mid-point solution which pisses off the folks who seem to hold doctrinaire views like the original poster of this thread, but also pisses of the far left as well.

I generally agree. In my experience with raising/training kids(which is simply my experience and should inform decisions which individuals make a long with gathering a bunch of other experiences and then applying them to the specific case you are in charge of rather than taking them as an ideological rule which simply does not apply in all cases) some form of corporal punishment MAY be appropriate in a particular situation (for example it may be a useful tool at times when one wants to send an extra serious message that the child should not do something that will hurt them a lot or have them hurt others). However, spanking when used as a management tool to force a specific short-term action from a kid is usually a pretty poor management tool and in the long run self-defeating. When the kid learns he can survive the spanking, your only choice to force an action from a kid is to escalate the level of violence of the spanking to eventually become a beating. Alternately the kid simply loses his fear and the parent is either judged to be impotent (if they will only go so far with the beatings) or judged to not care for the kid (if they are willing to escalate the spankings to beatings) The right to spank a kid should never be turned over to another person (otherwise the kid correctly will not trust the parent to protect them) and can be a useful tool in the case where the kid is doing something that might get him/her killed or they might kill/hurt someone else without a justification of an immediate threat of death/hurt. In general if one has to spank a kid it is a sign that the adult has lost control of the kid using voice commands or fear of disapproval. Spanking is on rare situations may be the right thing to do, (really once or twice in a lifetime from my experiences with parenting and leading 8 or so kids on 12 day Outward Bound Wilderness trips 12 times). If one has to resort to physically chastising a kid rather than mentally controlling this juvenile it is usually a sign of an incompetent (or childlike) adult.

However, real world experience simply shows that your "franchise" (a term of art rather than an absolute which you will need to define if you want to claim that certain QBs who in fact QB'ed their teams to SB wins are not "franchise" QBs as you define it)can be acquired through tons of other means than spending a 1st round pick on them. For example- Drew Brees- fact is he was pivotal in QBing the Saints to the last SB win and is by most folks definitions a franchise QB which do come available in FA with more frequency than the conventional wisdom would imply (Favre or McNabb are two examples of some commerce in past proven SB winners). For example- teams seem to with more often occurrence than the conventional wisdom would indicate run even HOF quality QBs out of town. TB with their stupid impatience with Steve Young and Brett Favre are the prime examples. However, the list of "busts" who then QB'ed a team to an SB victory includes folks like Dilfer and two time bust Brad Johnson. For example- a UDFA like Kurt Warner not only got pulled from his job as a box-boy at Wal-mart to lead a team to the SB, but he even reappeared as a franchise QB with AZ. For example- the issue here is not simply one of drafting but the costs of win you draft. The examples of stupid expenditures for Russell, Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf simply outweigh the relatively rare event of a Peyton Manning (who even in this best case has led to one SB win with a ton of help that demonstrates it is much more than a great QB that makes a team a great TEAM. Do you really believe it was just Manning? If so why did it take useful roles by a plethora of resources from Sanders and Freeney, to the best kicker in the NFL, to Polian magic with the entire roster, to adding in one of the best D HCs in the NFL to get them to the goal. Even if you want to argue that all these average talents were in fact made great or better due to a great QB, then how do you explain the great QB proving incapable of winning (or even getting to the big game both before and after the one time it worked with him. For example- the franchise QB in the form of folks like Elway or Eli Manning were acquired by trade rather than simply drafting them as you suggest. The simple facts are that when compared to the field of other ways of acquiring SB winning QBs, simply drafting a QB who then delivers an SB win to the team which drafts him is actually an unusual occurrence. It happened once with the late 80s choice by Dallas of Aikman and then a long drought occurred here in the real world until finally Peyton won one. Lest one be fooled by RoboQB quickly showing the ability of a rookie 1st round pick to deliver, one has to note that the Pitts team was a great team before RoboQB helped put them over the top and that no one mistakes the Bills from being one player away. The only thing outrageous here is some insistence by some that drafting your franchise QB is the ONLY way to do this. The facts simply say otherwise.

The issue here is not simply getting the best player but it is how do you build a winning team. The rap on Luck is not that he is a bad player or even that a top flight QB is not a great thing to have. The problem is what are the Bills strengths and weaknesses as a team and how does a rookie QB fit into them. The prob is that our OL does have some prospects (Bell seems to have talent but is too inconsistent right now and is at least a year away if he develops, Wood shows potential to move to Center which allows Hamgartner to play the easier guard position and allow us to get by with one solid back-up), However even if this all works we are still an RT and a back-up away from adequacy and a year of chemistry building while your QB is at some risk. This Buff team is not Pitts where RoboQB can enter as the difference maker. We are not even St. Louis which has been so bad so long they have gotten talented OL players and had time to build chemistry. This team needs a vet QB who can anticipate where the pass rush is likely to come from and makes the reads and is brave enough to cut and run only when necessary. Our rookie QB will profit most from concentrating on developing and not simply running for his life or getting blinsided because the OL is still learning and needs vet help to develop adequacy. Add into this that the local media led by Sully and WGR will delight in building expectations of this rookie as a savior and then sell commercials and generate column inches tearing him down and drafting a rookie QB to be the "franchise" has disaster written all over it. Do you disagree?

No QB is going to be a helpful choice for team building with our #1 pick as: 1. Our OL and nascent Gailey offense needs a QB with some NFL experience to read the pro defenses and games we are likely to face next year. Any rookie is going to need to spend their time learning to become a vet without this development being complicated by us needing a vet QB merely to operate adequately. Having a rookie as our QB almost without regard to their talent level will be a step back for this O to an Edwards level of production by this O. 2. Not only will a rookie be a step back for this O but also it will be a horrible situation for developing this rookie. In order to not get killed next year the QB will not only need to be able to do vet level reads but also have a vet level quick release. Even the quickest releases in the pros were simply not as this level of speed as a rookie. 3. The local media (which will be happy to make their nickels savaging a new QB brought in with high expectations) and a small but vocal part of the fan base desperately looking for immediate production from their new savior will not give a new QB the time to develop and learn from making mistakes to become a quality vet. It might make sense to try to get a late round QB who will not have expectations of immediate production and also will not devastate our salary cap when he proves to be mortal. However, as small as the chances of finding a Tom Brady are they actually are better than the chances of getting immediate production out of a 1st round QB choice.