Hplarrm

We also could have Tom Brady for amere 5th round choice. Getting depressed about the woulda/coulda/shouldas f the draft is simply foolish to allow to happen.

I think Orton leaving is a pretty clear case of addition by subtraction. He simply hurt this team by selfishly starting the game when he almost certainly had decided to retire after this game. The only rational reason for the Bills to play him o Sunday rather than getting EJ some game reps to develop his play or at least for the braintrust to assess ow much we needed o acquire a definite rather than potential starter at QB was eliminated wen Orton led the O to 5 straight 3 and outs in the Oak game. Orton is simply not committed teammate and a elfish and low character guy as even Merrone said he might have made a different decision on who to stat or how quickly he might bench an ineffective Orton if Orton had bee honest with his teammates and aces about his plan to retire. This team is better off without the low characters of both Orton and Merrone unless they are replaced with equally selfish replacements

Talk about addition by subtraction! Certainly two of the major elements a winning team should have is high character guys leading the team at HC and leading the team at QB (As we see from the presense of Bill Bellicheat at NE a high character HC is preferable though not essential but methinks he is the exception and not the rule). At any rate is there anyone out there who wants to make the claim that Orton demonstrated great loyalty to his teammates or demonstrated the TEAM first attitude which winning teams get from key players. He did not and really disqualified himself for being the team leader you want by clearly demonstrating his priorities when it comes to being an athlete and QB for the future. Good riddance and don't let the door hit you on the way out to Merrone as well. He talked a lot about changing the attitude on this tea to get folks thinking about the team's interests before their own and then simply did the opposite. He simply flatout improved the TEAM by leaving. Even better our division rival Jets not only have a demonstrably poorer performing QB. Merrone and Orton have improved this team by leaving.

I have re4al confidence in Orton... as my back-up QB. Good head for the game, an ability to read Ds, he can produce Ws (but only sometimes- great Ws against GB and in Detroit, but really laid an egg against Oak and it really is the D which leads this team). In the end, limited mobility and escapability as a QB, he does no throw well on the run and is ad has been for 10 years a .500 QB. Manual is probably not the guy. Orton pretty clearly not the guy. I love him as a back-up but tots of teams (including this yea r gave him the shot and after a long career he simply has failed to ever deliver. By all means count on him to watch the game frm the bench, see things and tell the to a more talented QB. Count on him to start up to 3 game as a reserve (the opponent will then have enough new tape on him). But no one has made a clear good case beyond hopes, dreams and wishes for him delivering more. EJ well may not deliver, but Orton is 500 + 1 or 2 games at best.

god guys but buh-bye. Pomote Schwartz from DC to HC but make it clear he must hire a new OC with a proven track record of offensive production

Interesting in that my guess is that when Pags bought the team it was likely playoffs or get fired for both Whaley and Merrone. Whaley ay well be safe as on the fly personnel decisions like Thigpen and Rambo are paying off big time. However, the buck often starts/ends with the HC. This HC of the year possibly might get canned. Thoughts?

The PR TD by Thigpen is a feather in the cap of Whaley as GM for this fan! Whaley missed on some moves for me (Watkins the talent to be worth a trade but other WRs who also are productive in the new penalize coverage NFL could have been had for no trade) but his biggest miss will be Merrone unless we play well next week. Overall, I give Whley great cred for the Pettine and then Schwartz DC signing. If theBills make the playoffs or at least W next week I keep Merrone but if we lose next week I fire Merrone and make Schwartz HC.

The PR TD by Thigpen is a feather in the cap of Whaley as GM for this fan! Whaley missed on some moves for me (Watkins the talent to be worth a trade but other WRs who also are productive in the new penalize coverage NFL could have been had for no trade) but his biggest miss will be Merrone unless we play well next week. Overall, I give Whley great cred for the Pettine and then Schwartz DC signing. If theBills make the playoffs or at least W next week I keep Merrone but if we lose next week I fire Merrone and make Schwartz HC.

My sense is: 1. Definitely a rookie (remember back to his too early celebration of a TD hic fortunately did not cost us) ..2. However, definitely achieved some the highest level accomplishments like already breaking record for rookie receptions, rookie player of the month and other stats that make him easily worthy of a high #1 pick. 3. Sill, way too early to reach final conclusions. After year 3 is when rationale conclusions can be made. 4. There are issues which can be reasonably debated (were there as productive receivers as Watkins who might have been taken later in the draft and most important w/o giving up the cost to move up, would Watkins have been better with a even marginally better OC than Hackett or even marginally better QB than Orton/Manual )? However, though these issues can be reasonably debated, any conclusion is premature. Watkins has failings for sure but also has demonstrated some top notch accomplishments for sure as well. The botomline: 1. Keep training and demanding more of Watkins (and also praise him for breaking Cibbs mark being player of month, etc) to not recognize bot renders n opinion stupid. 2 Get a credible OC as Hackett has not cut it. 3. Get a better starting QB. I like Orton as a player but he is .500 QB who is not going to be better than adequate. Manual is not as good as Orton right now but clearly has more. upside

You do understand don't you that yes Hogan is great to have as a Bill, but a big part of his accomplishments is that not only is the opponents #1 CB (lets say a Revis level player) is pretty much assigned to cover Watkins all over the field. In addition, most teams do not have a Revis and Watkins forces them to virtually always double-team him. Add to this that our clear #2 Woods has demonstrated the talent to produce 100 yards with the advantage Watkins gives him of attracting o much attention. There is a reason why Hogan is able to get such separation from coverage. Both Watkins and Woods have gone to the other ide of the field and also Chandler has a safety deep. It also no coincidence that many of the great plays by Hogan are at the end of games. When the other team's # 1,2, or 3 CB ha pulled hammy or is sitting out of breath, Hogan gets to work on the opponents #4 CB or a safety. Hogan s a good player, but really big part of why he is good is Watkins and also Woods.

Ralph was not a fool as a businessman I agree with you there. The proof is in the pudding as he built a construction based business into a 100s of million $ entity and he turned a $20,odd thousand investment in the Bills into an asset his estate sold for $1.4 billion. If someone proves he was a fool as a businessman then his estate should make thousands more by holding classes on how to be a fool. Yet that being said, he was a fool or just simply bad as a sportsman or judge of football players. He miscalculated badly in making a handshake agreement to reward Kelly with a big contract next time he resigned. While no one really can predict injury I was pretty surprised the Bills did not move a yea before they overreached for TC t replace he clearly in decline Jimbo. Ralph had the final say as signed the checks and he not only showed bad football judgment in mismanaging finding new QB after Kelly but misfired on QB choices he was clearly driving on players like RJ and probably Hobert. Add to this a series of failed relationships managing key employees like Polian, Butler. Wade, TD, Malarkey etc and Ralph was great business man and a fool as a sportsman.

I do often wonder if RWs personal relationships with his NFL partners had anything to do with his entry into the HOF being delayed longer than this viewer thought he was gonna get in. The handshake deal he made with Jimbo to reward him financially in his"next" contract, when the salary cap both restricted the Bills from paying an above market rate contract to Kelly and banned such handshake deals was a pretty direct violation of the cap rules. Bad relationships not only with Polian but eventually with Butler (who was cheesed he not only left the Bills high and dry but took AJ Smith with him, with Wade Smith (whom he lost a grievance battle with), the hiring, firing, and sad career of Greg Williams (what did RW see in hiring this bountygate moral monster), the personal battles with Mularkey (he walked away from millions rather than stay with a dysfunctional Bills ship),the failed second chance given to f TD and then firing him. Certainly almost ay individual case alone can be at least blamed on both parties. However, taken as a whole, one thing all these blow-ups have in common s RWS Like all human beings his public record merits some kudos and some censure.

The thing many folks fail to realize is that individual market size is by far the lesser source of profits for all owners whether large population bases or not. The TV market provides over 2/3 of the dollars earned and is the market to be satisfied rather than an individual market. In terms of whether the NFL prefers big markets or small markets,the clear answer is BOTH. There was really no chance the Bills would move. The NFL was simply not going to walk away from 40000+ season ticket holder dollars, the millions of dollars from local advertisers, and the millions in corporate welfare paid by local government. If the Bills move all tis to be lost. Sure even more season ticket holders, more ocal ad, and larger corporate welfare an be had in a larger market like Toronto. However, the NFL plan is clearly to get more eye balls looking at TV (ex: every team is required to play in England). The smart move for the NFL (which had contractual agreement with Ralph that 75% league approval f new owners was required. The illusion that the NFL operates based on free market competition between individual owners id with the signing of the CBA after the mid-80s lockout. The primacy of the individual owner being driven by the individual market died with Art Modell.

if it was all fixed wouldn't it be more interesting than it is? Any fool could write a better script than this one.

In general folks simply overvalue the draft and thus the critical importance of a 1st round choice. Yes it is true that good players have to come from somewhere and very good players tend to get drafted in the first round. However, I once looked at this in detail a few years back and even though it was generally viewed as a strong class, one year after the draft only half of the first rounders were starters (#1 o the depth chart at their positions). Quite frankly one prefers to have a first round choice than not, but in reality it is quite possible for the actual case to be that missing your first rounder is simply not even fatal, but is simply meaningless in many many real world cases. Think of it this way, what Whaley did by trading his first is to forgo a player like 1st rounder Erik Flowers and also increase the pressure on him to make a pick like 5th rounder Kyle Williams. A tough task yes, but obviously quite possible to do His thinking was that it was pretty clear to him that EJ is a PROJECT who needed some gamebreaker help to win now. He judged Watkins to be a better prospect to be a gamebreaker tan the other WRs I think that is true. The rookie player of the month award for Oct said it was true Watkns was worth the trade.

Because he is a .500 QB in his career and we want and need better Because the OL I too weak for a less than mobile QB Because he sucks in the red zone. He is a good back-up but is not the starter answer

Orton is and always was a .500 QB. I like him as a back-up who is capable of playing the Reich role if needed but counting on him for more than 3 starts seems a fools play. EJ also sucks as a starter but still has more potentiial upside than the failed Orton

Drafting a QB to play would be a waste. Its almost certainly gonna take a drafted QB a couple of years to become adequate and seeing a 16th and then 117th year in a row without the playoffs while a 2nd rounder learns the pro trade is almost 2 horrible to think. Better options strike me as FA- The solid D, a solid WR stable and maybe even a potential great run game makes us an attractive option particularly if we sign a solid HC who has been there before. Trade if possible- we have a few vets we could trade to get value.

While there are few pieces of NFL conventional wisdom I agree with. one which seems to be true is that it takes 3 years of play before an observer can really declare a player as a star or a bust. I really like the stats compiled in the lead post in this thread. Also, we fans have perfect right to jump t premature conclusions and the discussion itself though premature is at least based on real stats and a lot of fun. However, all of our yammer needs t come with the recognition that we really need t see a couple of more seasons of performance before we can make a legit pronouncement on how these players compare. In my several decades of watching the NFL I have seen: A. Too many careers lost to injury B. Too many sophomore slumps C. Too many Eric Mould careers of players being statistically horrible their first year or two and then they become perennial Prp Bowlers D. WRs get the right QB or C for their games, E. Opponents get enough film to find a fatal flaw I an opponents game an the see the rest of the league adopt the successful tactic, etc that its till way too soon to ass judgment on this class. Sa what you want but also keep the cavian in mind.

EJ is the same as he was when he was drafted He is a PROJECT. It struck me as football-stupid to expect EJ to lead this team to the playoffs with the level of performance he showed in college or even with less than16 starts as pro. EJ is simply too inconsistent a player for anyone to have reasonably have planned on this. EJ was a great collegian who led FSU to very good record. He is a big and solid athlete who clearly is a good leader and character guy. However, the NFL game and the college game are different. Expecting this inconsistent great athlete to be a pro QB would be dumb, but also simply throwing him under the bus seems football stupid to me as well. The facts are these. In his four starts is year, EJ was a key part of this TEAM scoring 2 victories including a nice job on the road against CHI. Anyone who claims EJ will NEVER b an adequate pro QB are simply wrong. is performance in these two wins simply shows this. However, his performance in the two losses shows why he is NOT ready to be the GUY we need right now. EJ is a PROJECT. Ortman is clearly the better choice for the Bills right here right now. However, while I hope he lasts, it would be stupid to count on the not nimble Ortman to survive all season behind this talented but young OL. Ortman was impressive on a bunch of throws and audibles on Sunday but his inability t move the O at all on several three and outs made 6 TOS essential to his great production. The good news is Whaley clearly saw EJ though the best QB choice in the 1st round you prefer Geno?) need big time help(Watkins) to perform well and backed him up with Ortman. I like the track we are on an EJ is not a bust (yet) but needs to work and improve as best he can. He showed in his four starts he ai't there yet but in the two Ws there is hope.

Perhaps that bodes well for EJs future possibilities as he will be learning from the bench until Ortan suffers too many hits behind our young OL.

Amusingly, the QB production under Ortman has clearly improved under vet consistency over the inconsistency of the PROJECT EJ, the overall improvement in production under Otman has not been the lead for our success. The lead factor has clearly been better play which led to Schwarz getting carried off the field in Detroit The D holding the line on MN until the O finally got its act together on the very last series and yesterday the O being simply pathetic in registering several 3 and outs after the D got a turnover, but the great news is the D kept pounding despite our sputtering O.

From the pro sports teams I have seen (and to a much lesser extent the amateur teams I have been a part I would disagree or actually refine the idea the idea that Merrone has brought toughness to this team. I do not think that he (and in fact most HCs bought or enforced toughness on a team. Tis simply is not how it works in he modern NFL with these incredibly well paid and prideful athletes. The good or great C can foster toughness which is already there, but the starting point on a successful team really has to start with a diverse group of team leaders. The example we ave all seen of this and know well is the Bils team which went to an unprecedented (and I doubt will be repeated in this world of FA and salary caps. This TEAM had a sense of toughness, and style and grace and attitude which did not stem from the cerebral and at most emotionally folksy Marv Levy. Marv was great and its hard to imagine the TEAM doing what it did without him. However, I would say his great talent was as an administrator who generally divvied up responsibility well, who handed out praise and attaboys well, and who managed up well keeping Mr. Ralph from messing things up to badly (which as owner he had the right to do). It seemed to me that the toughness actually started from the vet player leaders like Thurman on the O, augmented and eventually surpassed by Jimbo with a healthy degree of moderation by Reed who got along well with both me. Quiet tough leadership by Hull, great play by Bruce, intelligent efficiency by Tasker, loud rants by Talley, and whatever whoever else over the years. Add to this mix the critical role in TEAM building and player acquisition by Polian and a far more reasonable description emerges. Like any HC Marv had a central role but like most successful HCs since Lombardi he rode the wild tiger well but did not create the toughness and other critical elements he fostered. I like the role Merrone has played so kudos to him, but though there is the occasional Parcells who improve virtually any team to playoff level performance and even afew mre Rich Koites who can lose anywhere they go, Merrone strikes me as part of the 80% of HCs who an be great in a good situation or bad with a bad team. As far as these Bills I would look to Jax, Kyle Williams, Mario, and others and even Whaley for setting a tone which Merrone has fostered.

One thing NFL history has demonstrated is that though who is HC makes a huge difference in the performance of a specific team, overall there is little evidence of a specific HC having a method and style which works everywhere he goes. I think Parcells is the notable exception on the plus side (there are a few Rich Kotitites who not only suck everywhere but keep getting chances to suck. However, Shanahan being great in Denver and sucking in DC, even Lombardi being an icon in GB and mediocre in DC, Belicheat making (and losing 1 payoff game in 5 yearsin Cleveland an then being great with Pats, and even Marv with the KC/Bills contrast I see little evidence of an HC being a definite right move

Interesting post. For me the key question is how will Pegula be different than Ralph in terms of onfield performance. I think WNY should be grateful to Ralph for his off-field committment to WNY. He could have moved the team to a larger market and did not and I am grateful. However as a sportsman and businessman Ralph was a great businessman. As best s I can tell stumbled into the great performance of thee early 90s and then proceeded through: 1 A fanlike overaddiction to overeastimating what Jimbo had left and then a psychotic over-addiction to making ad football moves as he tried to get a new Jimbo are keys to the bad performance. He continually mismanaged personal relationships with Polian Butler, Donahoe, Wade, Mularkey etc which hurt team's onfield performance as well. I a thankful for Ralph's commitment to the area, but am pretty confident Pegula will do better. Afterall making the playoffs a mere once in the next decade and a half is all that it will take.