PDaDdy

LOL.....nice....We have some potentially talented "youth" on this o-line but I get what you mean

I'm going to get ruined for this but Langston Walker could be had for some spare change and some pocket lint. He was better than Butler at RT. He was good enough at protection and a road grater in run blocking. Lynch, for one, was much more successful when we had good to great tackles 2 years ago. Lynch is a RB that needs big blockers out in front of him and actual holes to run through. Freddy is better at making cut backs when there are no holes there. If you give Lynch a hole he'll get the yardage the offensive line affords him, +5 more just by refusing to go down.

Thanks for the names. I'll see if I can find any info or video on those guys. It's not like Butler was a super star but he looked ok through preseason and week 1. *sigh* Yet another hole to fill

Bulaga is a LT. He might not even fall to us at #9. No way a top 9 pick is a RT. Our only options at RT are a 3rd round rookie, some chump already on our roster or a veteran FA.

No doubt. The front office totally diminished the importance of continuity and TALENT on the o-line. We can now see where it got us. Some had the foresight to see that this is the only way things could have turned out. We need 2 GOOD starters at LT and RT as well as a good deal of depth. I'm all for the youth movement but a couple solid veterans who are actually competent would do wonders for the young guys and provide competent depth in the event of inevitable injuries. Does anyone have a site that just lists RT prospects? I know Tackles can project anywhere and isn't necessarily linked to where they played in college. It's just tough trying to figure out who might be around in the 3rd round for us? I think our first pick will be or has to be a LT and our second pick will be a 3-4 NT. Barring somehow moving up in the draft this means at best we would have to wait until the 3rd round to get a RT prospect. I have no idea how NFL ready a 3rd round RT is going to be

In a way this is just another blow to an already abysmal offensive line but it's not like Butler could stay healthy anyway. Has the guy played more than 8 or 10 games a year in the last 3? What do people think our options are at that spot. Given the youth movement I think they are looking for a young guy not a grizzled veteran. Is there anyone already on the roster, perhaps one of our many failed LT attempts, that might actually be competent at RT? Is there any prospect in the draft that could be had 3rd or 4th round? Is there a free agent under the age of 27 that fits the mold and would work with the youth movement?

Daunte Culpepper should have been a Bill 2 years ago. Our brilliant front office and coaching staff however didn't want to actually bring in anyone that would completely show up Trent Edwards and expose his girly man weak ass rubber arm. I hated that so much about us. Bring in talent and let the cream rise to the top. Instead we don't bring in anyone of worth that could actually challenge old "checkdown".

Ya who needs tackles!?!!? We just need a magical rookie QB who can make the o-line better! Neither of the super bowl teams had good tackles or an offensive line for that matter. It was just the QB snapping the ball to himself making it all happen. O-line is highly over rated

Injuries aside our defense was good enough. I know, stop the run blah blah. Our crappy offense really put the screws to our defense and the injuries ....well...the injuries...most in the league for 3 years running or something like that. The move to the 3-4 should actually make not only the defense better but the offense as well as we will actually get some practice against and hopefully learn how to beat a 3-4 defense. Offense we are a good line and QB away from success. Getting a blue chip LT, a great RT prospect for when Brad Butler gets hurt week 2 and getting some gel time for the rest of the guys can make us a competent young unit with nothing but upside. Throw in a veteran free agent QB, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WITH A STRONG ARM, and all of a sudden we look like a real team. There are MANY MANY MANY things to nitpick but there are just a couple really big things wrong with this team. They are also things that have created compounding problems in other areas. Fix a couple things and there will be this synergistic effect where other things miraculously don't appear as bad as we thought.

Well said. I agree with everything except time to play offs. There is a scenario where we could be a play off team in 2010. Yes I know it will take a bit of luck and a lot of hard work but it is not impossible. I really believe that.

100% on point. We do suck at both positions. Despite all the crazy arguments and points MOST of us know this is the case. For the rational people it's just a matter of which one we get first.

No it is not what I am saying. We need to get a LT AND fix the line. Those are two separate statements. One is towards the goal of the other but is not all that is necessary to achieve that goal. It's not my fault that you make assumptions about what I said instead of just reading and understanding what I said. Really? How about the only stat that matters like win loss record? What about first down conversion? What about passer rating?...right thought so. ANNNNNN. Wrong I said a GOOD strong arm QB CAN have an effect and dictate some coverages. The opposite of this example is noodle arm checkdown edwards. Defenses didn't have to worry about the deep pass or him threading the needle and played accordingly. How do I evaluate a good line? I told you ...www.nfl.freakin.com. Look at oline stats and you will see. I've already been through the yards/carry thing with Indy. They run just enough to keep the defense honest. In the super bowl as some like to keep referencing they averaged 5. something yds per carry. Is that more like it for you? When did I say sack numbers didn't determine a good or bad line. Of course it is a significant indicator! DUH. Not every sack is the lines fault and not every avoided sack is to their credit either but it's usually a decent indicator. Soo....you don't think he would have done even better with competent line play that day? He had a great game individual numbers wise with 5 sacks. Imagine his numbers with 2 sacks or even zero? How did his win loss numbers look that day? What really lost the game for GB is that they scored fewer points than AZ. That is the reason for every loss ever in the NFL. Don't forget that. Did you stop to consider that perhaps if Mr Rogers felt more comfortable in his neighborhood and wasn't sacked 5 times previously he would have delivered that ball in a more calm and importanly accurate fashion to Mr Jennings. No direct correlation but certainly plausible and something to think about. I never asserted that you said any QB we draft will start right away. THAT is my point. YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT...you can't even guarantee that he will eventually play like Manning or Brees, or Rogers or Roethlisberger. If you can't make that guarantee don't use them as examples for why we don't need a LT first. I, on the other hand, have given real world examples that are not based on the cream of the crop or probowl LTs. Merely competent ones that along with a good line, one helps the other, can allow a QB and RBs perform up to their potential. Once that is in place you need your good QB that you, we all, are so desperate for. Let's just look to the last years for a line making a QB better. Matt Ryan - Atlanta Great protection and #2 running game in the league 2008. Rookie QB makes the play offs. 2009 injuries and poor running game...no play offs Joe Flacco - Baltimore Great running game and protection. 2008 Rookie QB makes the play offs. 2009 To much is given to flacco to fast and they try to become more of a passing team. Fluke prevents them from making the play offs a second year Mark Sanchez - NY RIFE with rookie mistakes, turn overs and dumbed down game plan NY makes the AFC championship on the strength of it's o-line providing protection and #1 running game in the league if I am not mistaken and great defense. How about those 3 examples off the top of my head? A first round QB is TOO big on an investment to risk putting him behind a suspect offensive line. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE can give me an example of a rookie QB that succeeded with a terrible offensive line like ours. The last thing I want to see is a promissing rookie QB prospect like a Bradford or Claussen get killed and ruined here in Buffalo like David Carr, Joe Harrington and other s got ruined playing behind bad lines. It's not worth the risk. I'm not buying the Porsche until I have a garage to protect it.

I'm sort of with you. I think there are some decent options at QB in this draft that if we had a decent line I would have no problem with drafting. The problem is we don't have a decent line. Many of us have lost focus and the real answer is wwe need both. The argument is about in which order. My point is if you don't have a good "foundation", the offensive line, the team your "building" will suffer. Why put a nice penthouse, the QB, on a building that is going to collapse because the foundation isn't sound.

Well I didn't know that the previously unheard of site profootballfocus was gospel on LT ranking. Another little misdirection that you threw in there is you included ALL tackles not LTs AND it doesn't limit to starters. Even according to this site, not pro scouting grades, that McKinney is the 2009 8th best and 2008 7th best starting LT. Nice try at deception though How about you do us a favor and find the ONLY rankings that matter from nfl scouts which I think is scouts.com or something. Then maybe I'll at least CONSIDER your argument. That being said ...uh PROBOWL....let me say it again PROBOWL. You Peters haters are all alike anyway. Whaannnnn whaaannn whaaaan. I hate Peters. He made the probowl yet A-FREAKIN-GAIN so the probowl must mean nothing because it refutes my cockamamie beliefs.

Clear headed statement. Some, possibly including myself, at times forget the big picture. But this also echos a statement of mine. People keep pointing out a rare few exception VETERAN QBs that can make their lines better than they are. As I have said many times.....find me a rookie in the draft that can do the same thing and I will be all for drafting THAT SPECIFIC rookie in the draft. I have even gone so far as to say if you see a rookie QB in the draft that will eventually turn into that DRAFT HIM...Of course no one is able to make that claim and stand by it.

I say that I hate to nit pick but I really don't agree with a bunch of your assessments. Bryan McKinney? You mean the guy that was in the probowl this year and skipped practices? That Bryan McKinney is average? This speaks to the heart of my issue with your assessment. He is not only above average he is elite. For me elite means pro bowl starter. Sorry if you use a different measuring stick. You also point out guys like Kwame Harris that lost their job after two years but was a 16 game starter in his 3rd AND 4th year. Show some integrity and don't try to fool people and hope they don't actually check your statements. I also mentioned BUSTS ...nothing to do with average, slight above average, lukewarm whatever. It makes your point look a little less like a stretch when you try to critique the players skill level. BUST QBs vs BUST LTs. That's all I said. That's my point 100%. Addressing anything else is not refuting my point. And sorry I don't trust your assessment about talent grades but I would consider looking at lifetime grades from nfl scouting reports. I think when focusing on what I said BUSTS specifically that my point is proven. Many more bust QBs than LTs in the first round of the draft.

I'm glad it is obvious to you. It wasn't obvious to those that have myopically made this about LTs and QBs on super bowl teams. I am glad you get it though. Never said one guy is going to make the line so much better. I said it will make it better and anyone who we put in at QB better. Seems you made what is called a mis-step here! Not sure where you are getting this from of trying to make it the focus of my points. We don't currently have a sufficiently good line. We definitely need a good one if not a great one! Are you talking about Green Bay early in the season when they were giving up 4 sacks a game or the Green Bay later in the season that was giving up 1 sack a game? (Not sure about the exact numbers but you get the point....well....I hope you get the point. The team and QB got better when the line got better. And yes...to begin the season they were bad and Aaron Rogers was not all he could be. First of all the illusion that Peyton Manning had average personnel is complete crap. Speaking of mis-steps please explain to me how the regular season #1 ranked offensive line in the NFL by nfl.freakin.com is average. PLEASE explain that to me. As I have said in the past there are a RARE and small group of QBs that can succeed with poor line play. To be honest Brees and Manning haven't even proven to fit into that category because they have good, and in the case of Indy, the #1 o-line in the game. This has been pointed out to YOU in the past. Rogers and Big Ben are the only ones mentioned that you could say suffered from poor line play. I don't know why you would need an "awesome" line in front of them. Your word "awesome" not mine. They do need a line good enough to allow them to be the best that they can be though. This should be obvious. Due to the careful wording of my statement also 100% true Thank you for proving my point. Your great example of look how badly Rogers and his team sucked when the line sucked. Case closed. Poor line play lost the game for the packers. I guess you don't watch sports center because the "talk" and focus on preventing sacks was well publicized and apparently effective regardless of not knowing the intimate details of what was discussed in the players only meeting. That is a retarded request for a guarantee. What I will do is give you the same guarantee that you are unwilling to make about a QB. I will guarantee that whoever we draft at #9 at LT will be start day 1 and be a solid LT that will make our line better and help to protect the blind side of our QB. Since I never made silly comparisons about probowl once in a lifetime LTs making bad QBs better I can reasonably make my guarantee. Others on the other hand have used the examples of 2 of the best ever in Peyton and Drew. In addition I have attempted to lift the veil of ignorance and inform people that o-line play does not come down to LT. Others continually use the how many pro bowl LTs were in the super bowl so their entire o-line was mediocre due to this fact and it was the QB making the line look better. I have not made such a stupid claim in reverse regarding LTs. Good LT's make the line better. Good lines make the QB and the RBs better. Pretty simple stuff there. You can't exactly say the same regarding QBs. GREAT or AWESOME QBs make their line better and can make the RBs slightly better. But we are talking GREAT or oddly unique like GREAT mobility or size and refusal to get tackled by anything under 275lbs.

Yet another good point. No only do a good portion of our starters sucks our depth is EVEN WORSE!

Look at the previous drafts of high pick QBs vs LTs and you will have your answer The Mike Williams bust is a RARITY!!! The NFL landscape is littered with first round QBs that have busted and doomed their teams for the obligatory 3 or 4 years while they figure out he is NOT the guy. I would have thought this was obvious but apparently I have assumed to much lately.

You have the intelligence of a flea if you think you can easily make probowl LTs out of undrated TEs. How did that work out for us this year turning crap into a probowl LT?...Ya thought so. You were probably one of those idiots claiming that practice squad/development guy XYZ could come in and do as good a job. MORONS!!!! They have been proven wrong. And for all of your sour grapes, whiny baby bashing, Peters MADE YET ANOTHER PROBOWL...so...SUCK IT! You are wrong that he sucked but you won't have the integrity to admit it. You all know better than all the coaches, GMs and fellow players that Peters didn't deserve it! You guys are jokes and your opinions mean less than nothing because they are not objective and factual. Again you people are clueless. Let me straighten some things out for you guys. 1) The offensive line is comprised of LT LT C RG RT. The LT is not the sole player on the line and is not solely responsible for it's performance. (Should have been obvious but I guess I assumed to high a level of basic knowledge) 2) Although not probowlers their lines did a sufficient job protecting their QBs to allow them to do their job. (Again I assumed the obvious that it was common knowledge that not everyone that is good makes it to the probowl. AGAIN LT does not equal the entire o-line) 3) I agree it's not all about Brees and Manning but some jackass keeps referencing the two teams in the super bowl only. 4) Aaron Rogers discussed to death by me in other threads he and Big Ben actually have mediocre lines. This one is a bit more complicated so I will try to keep it simple for you. 4a) Aaron Rogers and Big Ben have HUGE arms. The deep threat or ball in tight window threat helps to dictate defensive coverage and how many rush the passer 4b) How much better did the packers get as a team after the talk with the offensive line regarding protection and sacks. See how the line makes the QB and the team better? (You probably still don't but I tried) 4c) Big Ben is a freak of nature huge QB that refuses to go down. Again not your normal run of the mill QB. His unique toughness and ability to elude the rush make him and his line better. 5) And Flacco....he has a pretty good line!!!!...DUH AGAIN....I will put this out there and expand it for you. ...FIND ME A ROOKIE QB IN THIS DRAFT THAT IS GUARANTEED TO PLAY LIKE AARON ROGERS, BIG BEN, PEYTON MANNING OR DREW BREES AND I AM ALL FOR DRAFTING THEM!!!!....Oh wait...can't find anyone that you will guarantee that will play at that level to minimize any short comings of their line....I can honestly say I am NOT surprised. Let's take it down a notch....find me a guy in the draft that you guarantee will wplay like any one of those guys at some point in their career and I am all for drafting them....OH wait....still no one you will put that guarantee on? Big surprise. Get a solid LT that involves little risk ....make the line better and allow them to gel as a whole and then get a free agent QB in here and BANG....SURPRISE all of a sudden we are contenders again in ONE FREAKIN' YEAR!!! Hell...even get the QB of the future to groom to be ready to play in 2 or 3 years. Problem solved.

HEY HEY....someone who gets it! Kudos to you!

Can a moderator please merge this thread with the other already started by DarthICE regarding NFLN says Bradford's arm is getting better? What a waste of new threads. Same ****.

You are correct....so what is your point? We need another QB...everyone agrees on that. The smart people understand that whoever we get at QB will amount to jack **** without a line to keep them on their feet....PLEASE....PLEASE tell me about the 2 teams in the superbowl this year and how they had non 1st rd LTs. Then also tell me which of these QBs in the draft will play like Peyton or Drew to make your "the QB makes the line better" scenario a reality!!!! I'm waiting.

QUOTE (Webster Guy @ Feb 18 2010, 12:19 PM) * The super bowl champions LT was a backup 4th round pick named Bushrod from Towson University. (Yeah i havent heard of it either) He was average to say the least. Did OK against Peppers and Abraham but struggled against Demarcus Ware and Jared Allen in the playoffs. Below average against Freeney in the big game even with help on that left side. The quarterback won them the game primarily because of his accuracy and pocket sense. They are both critical positions and its hard to say which is a better pick until you see what's available on draft day, but all things equal I would rather have an above average QB and a serviceable LT than the other way around. You can help LT's with TE's and blocking backs, but the QB is on his own. Who is so stupid as to believe that the performance of a teams offensive line comes down to the LT and LT only?!??!?!? Who is so stupid as to believe that a good LT guarantees a QBs success? Who is so stupid as to think that ANYONE we get in this draft will play like Drew Brees and Peyton Manning their rookie year or ANY year for that matter?

QUOTE (manbeast @ Feb 18 2010, 10:30 AM) * When we had Peters the rest of the line sucked. UHHHH...and why can't both be true?!?!?!?! Because it is!!!!