pBills Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 And you forgot...Forcing unions to take a paycut. Even the state union realized they were rats on a sinking ship!. Yup those unions are bringing everything down. Less you forget wasteful spending many states do. Example: In Maryland right now they are doing road work on I-270... repaving the left emergency lane. Did that have to be done right now when the state is in trouble? No. Could they have spent a smaller portion of those costs in some other area like schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Yup those unions are bringing everything down. Less you forget wasteful spending many states do. Example: In Maryland right now they are doing road work on I-270... repaving the left emergency lane. Did that have to be done right now when the state is in trouble? No. Could they have spent a smaller portion of those costs in some other area like schools? Schools are ridiculously over funded already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 I am curious what would have happened if we just let the banks and car makers go bankrupt. Would have been interesting to see. Guess we'll never know. They would have been liquidated for their true value, investors would have bought them and made them profitable again through real values. The country would have seen the whole thing over close to now and it would have been worse short-term, but much better now. Look, we just gave billions to the car companies who took the money and declared bankruptcy and you aren't enraged about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Schools are ridiculously over funded already. My point was that money could spent elsewhere. That it's not always the union fault even though the non-thinkers believe that to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I don't live in Calif so maybe someone there has better info, but isn't the problem due to the state being unable to raise taxes due to propositions? I think we're going to see a taste of what limited government looks like and it's not going to be pretty. Massive cuts in social services, teachers, state employees, prisons, etc. If it works it will be a model for the rest of the country. Not sure that the advocates of limited government want to rest their case on the results of this one. Personally, I think it's going to get ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 Schools are ridiculously over funded already. Are you crazy? If we had more money think about how much educated our children would be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 I don't live in Calif so maybe someone there has better info, but isn't the problem due to the state being unable to raise taxes due to propositions? I think we're going to see a taste of what limited government looks like and it's not going to be pretty. Massive cuts in social services, teachers, state employees, prisons, etc. If it works it will be a model for the rest of the country. Not sure that the advocates of limited government want to rest their case on the results of this one. Personally, I think it's going to get ugly. They are being forced to have limit their gov't, not have limited gov't. I hope you understand the difference. If you want to pick this as the model is ridiculous. Give us a state with income tax, property taxes, right to work state, truly minimal gov't, and reduce regulation by 90%... Oh wait, that was how the country was founded. Let me know how 1865-1913 turned out. (Hint: biggest rise in wealth in the history of the country). Also, this is what happens when the productive sector cannot pay for the unproductive sector. Eventually they both fail. If want to see what big gov't does look at the Soviets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Oh wait, that was how the country was founded. Let me know how 1865-1913 turned out. (Hint: biggest rise in wealth in the history of the country). The Guilded Age was just a terrific time to be alive if you were a robber baron. If you were a child, sharecropper, wage earner, or were owned by the factory store you were probably thinking communism was worth a looksy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 The Guilded Age was just a terrific time to be alive if you were a robber baron. If you were a child, sharecropper, wage earner, or were owned by the factory store you were probably thinking communism was worth a looksy. Yeah, all those people that owned their businesses because all they needed was the sweat of their brow, loved their freedom to live in a country that was guided by morals, and lived in peace were just clamoring for communism. History fully supports your view with all the immigrants from Europe asking for more gov't, I mean it wasn't like they were looking to work and make honest livings, but were asking the gov't to intervene and steal from others because others weren't paying their fair share. And then your alarm clock went off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Yeah, all those people that owned their businesses because all they needed was the sweat of their brow, loved their freedom to live in a country that was guided by morals, and lived in peace were just clamoring for communism. History fully supports your view with all the immigrants from Europe asking for more gov't, I mean it wasn't like they were looking to work and make honest livings, but were asking the gov't to intervene and steal from others because others weren't paying their fair share. And then your alarm clock went off... So, what happened then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The Guilded Age was just a terrific time to be alive if you were a robber baron. If you were a child, sharecropper, wage earner, or were owned by the factory store you were probably thinking communism was worth a looksy. OK, but I hope you're not trying to blame capitalism for the fact that life sucked in the 1800's. All communism or socialism could have done to solve this problem was ensure that life be crappy for everyone instead of life being crappy for almost everyone. Capitalism (with the proper human rights laws, consumer protection laws, unfair business practice laws, and minimal corporate favoritism from government) is still far and away the best system known to man for improving the human standard of living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 OK, but I hope you're not trying to blame capitalism for the fact that life sucked in the 1800's. All communism or socialism could have done to solve this problem was ensure that life be crappy for everyone instead of life being crappy for almost everyone. Capitalism (with the proper human rights laws, consumer protection laws, unfair business practice laws, and minimal corporate favoritism from government) is still far and away the best system known to man for improving the human standard of living. That doesn't seem to be the blowhard case that is being made.....thinking that getting rid of 90% of regulation is the moral way to proceed as our friend is advocating by returning to the Guilded Age......when we had child labor, no wage controls, a government run by graft and monopolies, and women were begging for temperance because if their husbands were alcoholics they didn't like the idea of lying on their backs to feed their children, not to mention Jim Crow, Lynch Mobs, and Pinkertons and bilking the natives out of their land...... This nation would have boomed if it was driven by regulated capital or not. There was no greater deposit of virgin natural resources and cheap land in the world at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The Guilded Age was just a terrific time to be alive if you were a robber baron. I assume you are speaking of the Gilded Age (1865-1900). The Guilded Age more aptly describes the golden age of unions, 1955-1980. The Gilded Age saw the creation of the industrial economy, the rise in per capita wealth (with the US surpassing all nations except the UK), and the rise of philanthropy. The Guilded Age ended in economic stagnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I assume you are speaking of the Gilded Age (1865-1900). The Guilded Age more aptly describes the golden age of unions, 1955-1980. The Gilded Age saw the creation of the industrial economy, the rise in per capita wealth (with the US surpassing all nations except the UK), and the rise of philanthropy. The Guilded Age ended in economic stagnation. Yes. Gilded. As in Mark Twain. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted May 26, 2009 Author Share Posted May 26, 2009 That doesn't seem to be the blowhard case that is being made.....thinking that getting rid of 90% of regulation is the moral way to proceed as our friend is advocating by returning to the Guilded Age......when we had child labor, no wage controls, a government run by graft and monopolies, and women were begging for temperance because if their husbands were alcoholics they didn't like the idea of lying on their backs to feed their children, not to mention Jim Crow, Lynch Mobs, and Pinkertons and bilking the natives out of their land...... This nation would have boomed if it was driven by regulated capital or not. There was no greater deposit of virgin natural resources and cheap land in the world at the time. Except for Argentina, Brazil, and other countries that have similar resources. Also, the problems of yesterday are nothing in comparison to today. The problems of local theifs is nothing compared to institutionalized theft through today's taxes and through taxes through inflation. Wage controls have not solved anything and have created more problems than they solve. And women crying for temperance laws has nothing to do with this discussion. There are more alcoholics now then back then, not to mention higher suicide and depression. All of the other problems such as child labor and the like was not what made this country great or rich. We had freedom and worked for it. Yes there were problems and it wasn't a capitalist utopia, but the unintended consequences of all the regulation will put us on the path of a 3rd world nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Except for Argentina, Brazil, and other countries that have similar resources. Brazil had cheap/free land? not sure about Argentina...but I don't think there was serious land reform in Brazil until the 1930's. Also, the problems of yesterday are nothing in comparison to today. The problems of local theifs is nothing compared to institutionalized theft through today's taxes and through taxes through inflation. Wage controls have not solved anything and have created more problems than they solve. And women crying for temperance laws has nothing to do with this discussion. There are more alcoholics now then back then, not to mention higher suicide and depression. Well, that stands to reason as the population has quadrupled. But the temperance movement has a lot to do with the workplace rights that women were afforded, which were none. All of the other problems such as child labor and the like was not what made this country great or rich. We had freedom and worked for it. Yes there were problems and it wasn't a capitalist utopia, but the unintended consequences of all the regulation will put us on the path of a 3rd world nation. Freedom would have meant jack if we didn't have about 4 million miles of natural resources to play on. You were the one saying it was a moral age. I was only pointing out that women, blacks, children, Indians, and wage workers might have a different opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Brazil had cheap/free land? not sure about Argentina...but I don't think there was serious land reform in Brazil until the 1930's. ... What, you don't remember the Sooners racing in their boats up the Amazon to claim their own little patch of heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Schools are ridiculously over funded already. Yup. Big liberal states going bankrupt like NY and CA spend more on schools than anywhere else in the world. It just seems otherwise when they continue to produce grads that sound like they belong in the sequel to Idiocracy (best current example: connor*). * "big government is a myth. It has electrolytes" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 What, you don't remember the Sooners racing in their boats up the Amazon to claim their own little patch of heaven? I just remember the Rogers and Hammerstein musical about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I assume you are speaking of the Gilded Age (1865-1900). The Guilded Age more aptly describes the golden age of unions, 1955-1980. The Gilded Age saw the creation of the industrial economy, the rise in per capita wealth (with the US surpassing all nations except the UK), and the rise of philanthropy. The Guilded Age ended in economic stagnation. I thought the Gilded Age was the early years of Saturday Nite Live with Gilda Radner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts