Wonder how Spain feels now???

[Rich in Ohio]

Article

 

 

Well I wonder how the people of spain feel now? After all, their capitulation to the terrorists when they were attacked right before the election, was supposed to keep them safe. Huh, what, now they find out that the radical islam fundamentalists still mean them harm. How could this be? The did what the radicals wanted......they appeased and they voted in the man who pulled the tropps out on demand. Isn't that what was supposed to keep us safe???

 

 

Well welcome to the real world spain. radical islam hates evryone, and everything that is not like them. They are animals, and they have no respect for human life in any way shape or form. The are sub-human (and that may be generous) and they will never stop killing you no matter how many times you surrendor to them.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Thurman's Helmet]

Article

Well I wonder how the people of spain feel now? After all, their capitulation to the terrorists when they were attacked right before the election, was supposed to keep them safe. Huh, what, now they find out that the radical islam fundamentalists still mean them harm. How could this be? The did what the radicals wanted......they appeased and they voted in the man who pulled the tropps out on demand. Isn't that what was supposed to keep us safe???

Well welcome to the real world spain. radical islam hates evryone, and everything that is not like them. They are animals, and they have no respect for human life in any way shape or form. The are sub-human (and that may be generous) and they will never stop killing you no matter how many times you surrendor to them.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee.

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I guess its time for them to appease further.

[PastaJoe]

Staying in Iraq wouldn't have reduced the terrorist threat to Spain either. If anything it allows them to focus their limited resources on the terrorist threat, as opposed to bogging them down in the quagmire in Iraq which wasn't a terrorist haven before the invasion. They realized their mistake and made the right decision for their country. I applaud the Spanish people for holding their previous administration responsible for their mistake. Americans should learn from them.

[Evil Bastard]

I applaud the Spanish people for holding their previous administration responsible for their mistake.  Americans should learn from them.

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But yet, when conservatives try to hold the previous administration responsible for their blunders, why to we constantly hear "stop bringing up Clinton!!"?

 

This is not necessarily directed at you, but just a general observation.

[Alaska Darin]

Staying in Iraq wouldn't have reduced the terrorist threat to Spain either.  If anything it allows them to focus their limited resources on the terrorist threat, as opposed to bogging them down in the quagmire in Iraq which wasn't a terrorist haven before the invasion.  They realized their mistake and made the right decision for their country.  I applaud the Spanish people for holding their previous administration responsible for their mistake.  Americans should learn from them.

76135[/snapback]

Really?

Where was Abu Nidal when he committed suicide (if shooting yourself in the head 4 times can be considered suicide)? AP reporter S. Yacoub reported that Nidal arrived in the country with the full knowledge of the Iraqi government.

 

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was known to be in Iraq before the war and was treated in Baghdad for injuries suffered in Afghanistan.

 

Ramzi Yousef traveled to America on an Iraqi passport.

 

Abu Abbas was captured in Baghdad

 

It is a well documented fact that the Iraqi government paid $25K to the families of suicide bombers. 11 Americans are known dead because of these bombings.

 

Khala al Salahat who furnished the semtex that killed 189 Americans on Pan Am 103 surrendered to the 1st Marine Division in IRAQ.

 

Coalition Troops shut down at least 3 terrorist camps including Salman Pak, a base 15 miles from Baghdad. There was a full mock up passenger plane there used for training terrorists. The camp specialized in training terrorists from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States according to PBS' Frontline and testimony from Iraqi's in front of Congress in the spring of 2002.

 

The Phillipino government expelled a high ranking Iraqi diplomat after seizing cell phone records showing conversations between the official and leaders of Abu Sayyaf.

 

Farouk Hijazi was captured by US forces near the Syrian border this year. He admitted to meeting with Al Qaeda on Saddam's behalf various times since 1994.

 

There are actually more examples of this than I want to waste time on. Keep telling yourself that CNN and the rest of the media is telling you the truth.

[PastaJoe]

But yet, when conservatives try to hold the previous administration responsible for their blunders, why to we constantly hear "stop bringing up Clinton!!"?

 

Having 8 years of peace and prosperity but getting caught with your pants down is not as much a blunder as starting an unnecessary war at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

[PastaJoe]

It is a well documented fact that the Iraqi government paid $25K to the families of suicide bombers. 11 Americans are known dead because of these bombings.

 

Oh, you mean those Palestinians families who were paid after a family member died attacking Israel? How many of them were paid to attack the U.S.?

 

I can list many more connections to the Saudis than you have regarding Iraq, does that mean we and Spain should invade and occupy Saudi Arabia?

 

Sometimes you can be such a dull tool.

[DC Tom]

I can list many more connections to the Saudis than you have regarding Iraq

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Official ones (as opposed to private individuals)? Go right ahead. I want to hear this...

[Evil Bastard]

Having 8 years of peace and prosperity but getting caught with your pants down is not as much a blunder as starting an unnecessary war at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

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You still don't get it, do you? Stevestojan that is happening now is rooted in policies and decisions made before this administration even took office. MY GOD, how friggin slow are you people? This is not about a BJ.

 

Put down the TV Guide, and pick up a friggin book.

[Rich in Ohio]

Having 8 years of peace and prosperity but getting caught with your pants down is not as much a blunder as starting an unnecessary war at the cost of thousands of lives and billions of dollars.

76195[/snapback]

 

 

I don't think that getting caught with the presidents pans down is what AD was talking about. Clearly it was about a connection between people of like minds.

[Alaska Darin]

Oh, you mean those Palestinians families who were paid after a family member died attacking Israel? How many of them were paid to attack the U.S.?

 

I can list many more connections to the Saudis than you have regarding Iraq, does that mean we and Spain should invade and occupy Saudi Arabia?

 

Sometimes you can be such a dull tool.

76207[/snapback]

THE WAR ON TERROR IS GLOBAL. It is in the interest of the world to stop it everywhere, not just when it directly affects one country.

 

11 Americans died at the hands of suicide bombers paid by Saddam's government. Your cavalier dismissal of this in favor of partisan rhetoric shows where your allegiance lies.

 

Feel free to list the connections to the House of Saud. Make sure they are direct connections to the government.

[SilverNRed]

Really? 

Where was Abu Nidal when he committed suicide (if shooting yourself in the head 4 times can be considered suicide)? AP reporter S. Yacoub reported that Nidal arrived in the country with the full knowledge of the Iraqi government.

 

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was known to be in Iraq before the war and was treated in Baghdad for injuries suffered in Afghanistan. 

 

Ramzi Yousef traveled to America on an Iraqi passport.

 

Abu Abbas was captured in Baghdad

 

It is a well documented fact that the Iraqi government paid $25K to the families of suicide bombers.  11 Americans are known dead because of these bombings.

 

Khala al Salahat who furnished the semtex that killed 189 Americans on Pan Am 103 surrendered to the 1st Marine Division in IRAQ.

 

Coalition Troops shut down at least 3 terrorist camps including Salman Pak, a base 15 miles from Baghdad.  There was a full mock up passenger plane there used for training terrorists.  The camp specialized in training terrorists from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States according to PBS' Frontline and testimony from Iraqi's in front of Congress in the spring of 2002.

 

The Phillipino government expelled a high ranking Iraqi diplomat after seizing cell phone records showing conversations between the official and leaders of Abu Sayyaf.

 

Farouk Hijazi was captured by US forces near the Syrian border this year.  He admitted to meeting with Al Qaeda on Saddam's behalf various times since 1994.

 

There are actually more examples of this than I want to waste time on.  Keep telling yourself that CNN and the rest of the media is telling you the truth.

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Thank you.

[Alaska Darin]

Thank you.

76278[/snapback]

You're welcome. I sincerely wish people would use the internet for the terrific tool that it is. Every piece in that can be found in various places around the web.

[Evil Bastard]

You're welcome.  I sincerely wish people would use the internet for the terrific tool that it is.  Every piece in that can be found in various places around the web.

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Research? What is that?

 

 

Can I use this internet thing to see when the next episode of Survivor is on?

[Alaska Darin]

Research? What is that? 

Can I use this internet thing to see when the next episode of Survivor is on?

76286[/snapback]

What's "Survivor"?

[erynthered]

QUOTE(PastaJoe @ Oct 19 2004, 01:41 PM)

I applaud the Spanish people for holding their previous administration responsible for their mistake.  Americans should learn from them.

 

 

 

 

 

Evil Bastage

But yet, when conservatives try to hold the previous administration responsible for their blunders, why to we constantly hear "stop bringing up Clinton!!"?

 

 

 

 

Nicely done Bastage, Nicely done. The hypocracy is mind boggling.

[Mickey]

But yet, when conservatives try to hold the previous administration responsible for their blunders, why to we constantly hear "stop bringing up Clinton!!"?

 

This is not necessarily directed at you, but just a general observation.

76187[/snapback]

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time excusing the present administration as well as all past republican administrations we would take it more seriously. Besides, I don't think we can go back in time and un-elect Clinton. On top of that, Bush's own counter terrorism expert wrote a book that documented pretty well that Clinton had a better record than Bush on terrorism although both failed any objective measure of anti-terrorism efforts.

[Evil Bastard]

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time excusing the present administration as well as all past republican administrations we would take it more seriously.  Besides, I don't think we can go back in time and un-elect Clinton.  On top of that, Bush's own counter terrorism expert wrote a book that documented pretty well that Clinton had a better record than Bush on terrorism although both failed any objective measure of anti-terrorism efforts.

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You want to point out where I am excusing the present administration or all past republican administrations.

[Mickey]

THE WAR ON TERROR IS GLOBAL.  It is in the interest of the world to stop it everywhere, not just when it directly affects one country.

 

11 Americans died at the hands of suicide bombers paid by Saddam's government.  Your cavalier dismissal of this in favor of partisan rhetoric shows where your allegiance lies.

 

Feel free to list the connections to the House of Saud.  Make sure they are direct connections to the government.

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Since 9/11, how many Americans were killed by Saddam and his regime up until when we invaded? I don't know when those 11 were killed in relation to 9/11 nor what others may have been killed enforcing the no-fly zone or in connection with some other activity.

[Thurman's Helmet]

Since 9/11, how many Americans were killed by Saddam and his regime up until when we invaded?  I don't know when those 11 were killed in relation to 9/11 nor what others may have been killed enforcing the no-fly zone or in connection with some other activity.

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So you're saying that we should have maintained a REACTIONARY position regarding National Defense even after 9/11?

[Rich in Ohio]

Since 9/11, how many Americans were killed by Saddam and his regime up until when we invaded?  I don't know when those 11 were killed in relation to 9/11 nor what others may have been killed enforcing the no-fly zone or in connection with some other activity.

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Um mickey do you think that saddam was having his troops shoot at our palnes in the no fly zone with no intention of hitting them?

 

The fact that he violated the resolutions, and fired upon our troops earned him the ass whipping that he and his boys got.

[DC Tom]

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time excusing the present administration as well as all past republican administrations we would take it more seriously.  Besides, I don't think we can go back in time and un-elect Clinton.  On top of that, Bush's own counter terrorism expert wrote a book that documented pretty well that Clinton had a better record than Bush on terrorism although both failed any objective measure of anti-terrorism efforts.

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Actually, he was Clinton's expert, grandfathered into a Bush administration that had little intent to keep him on staff, so it's hardly surprising he'd defend the Clinton administration at the expense of Bush.

 

And from what I've heard, the Clinton administration didn't think too highly of his expertise anyway. Had the Cole bombing occurred mid- rather than late-term, Clarke's ass probably would have been booted.

[Mickey]

You want to point out where I am excusing the present administration or all past republican administrations.

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Omission by silence

[Evil Bastard]

Omission by silence

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You have got to be kidding. I expect weak responses like this from blzrul, but I thought you were better than this. I was wrong. You have become nothing more than a political hack, just like Rich in Ohio.

 

So, when I say that "Stevestojan that is happening now is rooted in policies and decisions made before this administration even took office," that is excusing all previous republican administrations?

 

You guys are unbelievable. How about I put things in words you will understand, "Bush Bad." Feel better now?

 

Your credibility has taken a shot, with stupidity like this.

[DC Tom]

Omission by silence

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Just so my silence isn't misinterpreted as excusing this stupid statement...that was a stupid statement.

[Mickey]

Actually, he was Clinton's expert, grandfathered into a Bush administration that had little intent to keep him on staff, so it's hardly surprising he'd defend the Clinton administration at the expense of Bush.

 

And from what I've heard, the Clinton administration didn't think too highly of his expertise anyway.  Had the Cole bombing occurred mid- rather than late-term, Clarke's ass probably would have been booted.

76367[/snapback]

Rather than dismiss his point of view based on who hired him, wouldn't it be more effective to demonstrate which of his statements are demonstrably false with evidence? I have not seen anyone disprove his material allegations. In fact, a number were not even denied.

 

Why is he "Clinton's expert" when before Clinton he was the second ranking intelligence officer at the State Department under Reagan and remained with the State Department under Bush the First, not leaving until 1992?

[Mickey]

You have got to be kidding. I expect weak responses like this from blzrul, but I thought you were better than this. I was wrong. You have become nothing more than a political hack, just like Rich in Ohio.

 

So, when I say that "Stevestojan that is happening now is rooted in policies and decisions made before this administration even took office," that is excusing all previous republican administrations?

 

You guys are unbelievable. How about I put things in words you will understand, "Bush Bad." Feel better now?

 

Your credibility has taken a shot, with stupidity like this.

76387[/snapback]

It certainly is excusing this one isn't it? Maybe you could point out to me all your posts being critical of Reagan's, HW's and Dubya's pre 9/11 antiterrorism efforts or lack thereof. I'd love to read them.

[Rich in Ohio]

You have got to be kidding. I expect weak responses like this from blzrul, but I thought you were better than this. I was wrong. You have become nothing more than a political hack, just like Rich in Ohio.

 

So, when I say that "Stevestojan that is happening now is rooted in policies and decisions made before this administration even took office," that is excusing all previous republican administrations?

 

You guys are unbelievable. How about I put things in words you will understand, "Bush Bad." Feel better now?

 

Your credibility has taken a shot, with stupidity like this.

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Hey I take offense to you useing me as a comparison to mickey.

 

A political hack...maybe

 

mickey.......definately not!!!

[Mickey]

Just so my silence isn't misinterpreted as excusing this stupid statement...that was a stupid statement. 

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Please explain. Maybe I missed all his posts being critical of other administrations and misread his reference to "the previous administration" as opposed to administrations?

[DC Tom]

Rather than dismiss his point of view based on who hired him, wouldn't it be more effective to demonstrate which of his statements are demonstrably false with evidence? I have not seen anyone disprove his material allegations.  In fact, a number were not even denied.

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Actually, I think I have demonstrated before the falsity of several of his statements...lost in the board upgrade, of course. If I can find the time, I'll recreate some of them.

 

But my point wasn't to refute Clarke's statements as much as to refute these visions of his "expertise". For better or worse, his position under the Bush administration was less one of an "expert", and more one of "undesirable interloper" who's tenure was strictly intended as temporary from the start. And under Clinton, his status would have been "had his ass fired" if the precipitate event (the Cole bombing) hadn't happened in the final few months of the administration, making firing him a largely moot point.

 

Why is he "Clinton's expert" when before Clinton he was the second ranking intelligence officer at the State Department under Reagan and remained with the State Department under Bush the First, not leaving until 1992?

 

Give me a break. He's not "Clinton's expert" because he started under Reagan...but he is "Bush's expert"? What the hell kind of logic is that? He's Clinton's expert because he was appointed to "terrorism czar" by Clinton.

[Mickey]

Um mickey do you think that saddam was having his troops shoot at our palnes in the no fly zone with no intention of hitting them?

 

The fact that he violated the resolutions, and fired upon our troops earned him the ass whipping that he and his boys got.

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It is a simple question Richio, how many Americans were killed by Saddam after 9/11 and before we invaded?

[DC Tom]

Please explain.  Maybe I missed all his posts being critical of other administrations and misread his reference to "the previous administration" as opposed to administrations?

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Explain? I'm just going by your "omission by silence" standard. You established the precedent, not me...you explain it.

[_BiB_]

It certainly is excusing this one isn't it?  Maybe you could point out to me all your posts being critical of Reagan's, HW's and Dubya's pre 9/11 antiterrorism efforts or lack thereof.  I'd love to read them.

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Hey guys. The real crux of the issue here is that it really doesn't matter at this point how we got here. The issue is what do we do with what we've got. A big problem here, a very obvious one-is that very few people are comfortable talking about the solutions-the real ones, not the hypothetical. People are going to get sent places they don't want to be. Some of them will die. So will bad guys, and folks walking to the corner grocery store. Tradeoffs will be made and soldiers will be often hamstrung by politics and diplomacy. Allies will turn on you when it's in their self interest to do so. The public will abhor whatever decisions are made. Period. Someone will not like something every time. Successes will rarely be discussed. Failures, and there will be many will be played continuously. This is a dirty business. It's not a Tom Clancy novel, nor is it the West Wing.

[DC Tom]

Hey guys. The real crux of the issue here is that it really doesn't matter at this point how we got here.

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Hmmm...I would tend to disagree with that statement for a variety of reasons:

- it matters to the election, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

- it matters to understanding the immediate issues, which has a direct bearing on the solution,

- it matters to understanding the mistakes we've made that got us here, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

 

"How we got here" shouldn't necessarily be the focus of the issue, but "really doesnt matter" is certainly an exaggeration.

 

(Plus...it's easier to discuss. History is concrete. The abstract issue of planning counter-terrorism is much more difficult to talk about than actual identifiable historical events.)

[Mickey]

Actually, I think I have demonstrated before the falsity of several of his statements...lost in the board upgrade, of course.  If I can find the time, I'll recreate some of them.

 

But my point wasn't to refute Clarke's statements as much as to refute these visions of his "expertise".  For better or worse, his position under the Bush administration was less one of an "expert", and more one of "undesirable interloper" who's tenure was strictly intended as temporary from the start.  And under Clinton, his status would have been "had his ass fired" if the precipitate event (the Cole bombing) hadn't happened in the final few months of the administration, making firing him a largely moot point. 

Give me a break.  He's not "Clinton's expert" because he started under Reagan...but he is "Bush's expert"?  What the hell kind of logic is that?    He's Clinton's expert because he was appointed to "terrorism czar" by Clinton. 

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So I can't hold him to be Bush's expert nor can I blame Bush for keeping an incompetent (your view apparently) on staff. Nice, that way, no matter what, Bush is excused. It really is all Clinton's fault. I guess I shouldn't even bother pointing out that Clarke was not being tossed by the administration but was moving to another anti-terrorist post within the administration, cyber terrorism if I recall correctly. What exactly was going on that left Bush no choice but to keep on this incompetent, undesirable interloper? If he was so incompetent and undesirable, why was he being appointed to another counter terrorism post? Isn't there a chance that they kept him on because they wanted him and had some respect for his abilities and talents? The alternative is that while AQ was becoming a more and more dangerous threat, while the awful 9/11 plan was springing into action, the Bush folks were content to have as their expert an incompetent, undesirable interloper.

 

I guess the historians will have to sort all this out and I am sure that when it is all said and done, there will be enough failures of action, intelligence, imagination and dilligence to go around. 9/11 was a national failure. When I wathed those Towers fall, I didn't think, "How did Bush let this happen?" I thought, "How did we let this happen?"

[Mickey]

Hmmm...I would tend to disagree with that statement for a variety of reasons:

- it matters to the election, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

- it matters to understanding the immediate issues, which has a direct bearing on the solution,

- it matters to understanding the mistakes we've made that got us here, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

 

"How we got here" shouldn't necessarily be the focus of the issue, but "really doesnt matter" is certainly an exaggeration.

 

(Plus...it's easier to discuss.  History is concrete.  The abstract issue of planning counter-terrorism is much more difficult to talk about than actual identifiable historical events.)

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Man, you are disagreeing with everyone today.

Me? I can take it but when you start going after Bib, you are going too far.

 

On a side note, I had wicked abdominal pain yesterday so bad I ended up in the hospital and now I have to have my gall bladder removed. The condition is called "bilious colic". I thought about petitioning for this board to be renamed the "Bilious colic" board, I think it just fits. Once this bile producing gland is removed, I will likely have to resign from the board. Without bile, I have nothing to add.

[Evil Bastard]

It certainly is excusing this one isn't it? 

76402[/snapback]

 

You are obviously not a prosecutor. I can just see you walking into a rape trial and saying to the judge, "Well, your honor. The only evidence I have that the defendant is guilty, is that he has not said that he is not a rapist. I rest my case."

 

Keep trying.

[_BiB_]

Hmmm...I would tend to disagree with that statement for a variety of reasons:

- it matters to the election, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

- it matters to understanding the immediate issues, which has a direct bearing on the solution,

- it matters to understanding the mistakes we've made that got us here, which has a direct bearing on the solution.

 

"How we got here" shouldn't necessarily be the focus of the issue, but "really doesnt matter" is certainly an exaggeration.

 

(Plus...it's easier to discuss.  History is concrete.  The abstract issue of planning counter-terrorism is much more difficult to talk about than actual identifiable historical events.)

76430[/snapback]

 

There's about a thousand years of history that result in this. Even looking at the modern perspective, you have to go back to 1914.

 

Why does it matter to the election? 90% of voters are going to vote based on what their candidate said last. Neither is telling the truth, so what's to gain?

 

I understand the immediate issues, as I chose to. It's not my problem if someone else doesn't. How many times have I tried to explain some of them?

 

What good does understanding the mistakes of 1947 do? The dynamics have radically changed, and what happened over the last 5 or 10 years are only a part.

 

In a broader sense, yeah-a lot of people have spent and are spending a lot of time figuring these things out. But as far as fighting a war goes, it's immaterial to it. We are now at the point of "put steel on target", whether it be miliatry, economic, political or diplomatic. In order to come anywhere near defeating our adversary we will very well probably make some of the same mistakes again-even intentionally, because they fit the overall solutions.

 

And, BTW-I pretty well know what the definition of winning the war on terrorism is. I also pretty well know that if we do, it won't be for many, many years. Probably generations. Winning hearts and minds is on the list-but it isn't in the short term that important. Defeating the present capabilities of the adversary is what's important. Once you've gotten a handle on that-you can start the nicey-nice.

[Evil Bastard]

Hey I take offense to you useing me as a comparison to mickey.

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So?

[erynthered]

Man, you are disagreeing with everyone today. 

Me? I can take it but when you start going after Bib, you are going too far.

 

On a side note, I had wicked abdominal pain yesterday so bad I ended up in the hospital and now I have to have my gall bladder removed.  The condition is called "bilious colic".  I thought about petitioning for this board to be renamed the "Bilious colic" board, I think it just fits.  Once this bile producing gland is removed, I will likely have to resign from the board.  Without bile, I have nothing to add. 

76441[/snapback]

 

 

First off, you're being to kind to Tom.

 

 

Secondly, I'm sorry to here the news Mick, I hope things work out for you.

Its been a hell of a year for you and your family. Good luck.