What's Your Opinion On The Texas FLDS?

[Steely Dan]

Linkage

 

Officials of the state Department of Family and Protective Services on Thursday defended their actions as having been taken in the children’s interest and said they were considering their next steps.

 

The unanimous ruling by three judges of the Third Court of Appeals in Austin revoked the state’s custody over a large group of the children and by extension almost certainly the rest, for what it called a lack of evidence that they were in immediate danger of sexual or physical abuse.

The appeals court said the record “does not reflect any reasonable effort on the part of the department to ascertain if some measure short of removal and/or separation would have eliminated the risk.” It also said the evidence of danger to the children “was legally and factually insufficient” to justify their removal and it said the lower court “abused its discretion” in failing to return seized children to their families.

 

Obviously they are going by the law because I don't think they would return the children unless there was a glaring error on part of the state.

 

I do have some questions about what I've underlined.

 

This is from an April 19, 2008.

 

After hearing two days of testimony, the judge, Barbara Walther, issued a terse statement from the bench at Tom Green County Court saying that she had also ordered maternal and paternal testing on all the children, who range in age from infants to 17-year-olds, and expedited DNA and fingerprint testing of their parents as well.

 

Judge Walther emphasized that her decision was preliminary and that “a safe environment” for the children was paramount, now and in the future.

 

This is also from that article;

 

Lawyers for the families said the state’s justification for the raid was flimsy and tainted by bias against the F.L.D.S. community. Evidence that older men had married or had sex with girls as young as 15 — in violation of Texas law, and a core plank of the state’s decision to remove the children — was inconclusive, they said. That a teenage girl becomes pregnant is by itself not evidence of child abuse, they said, let alone an indictment of the entire community where she lives.

 

I don't recall hearing anything about the tests coming back and when they do I'm sure they will confirm some inbreeding and I think that's evidence of sexual abuse. I believe that waiting for those tests to come back isn't a bad decision. Also, a 15 year old girl having a baby doesn't mean there was abuse?

 

In Texas, like New York, the age of consent is 17. In some states if boy over 17 has sex with a girl within a couple of years it's not considered statutory rape. That might be the legal issue that they are using in their argument.

 

Here's another article.

 

The ranch is owned by the FLDS, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy. State child protection workers say they have found evidence that girls as young as 13 were forced to marry older men and bear their children.

 

If that's true then how could the court say they are not in immediate danger?

 

I really wish all of the evidence would be published. I'd really like to know more.

 

Another article;

 

Sect leader Warren Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, was sentenced to prison in Utah for being an accomplice to rape in arranging a marriage of a 14-year-old follower to her 19-year-old cousin. He awaits trial in Arizona, where he is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct.

 

This whole thing is a fustercluck.

[blzrul]

It's Texas. There's a reason they moved there.

[Chilly]

It's Texas. There's a reason they moved there.

 

The idiocy abounds.

[Steely Dan]

It's Texas. There's a reason they moved there.

 

[/dev/null]

I have a strange and kooky idea:

Ask the kids if they want to go back

 

If some want to go back, let them. If some don't want to go back, don't force them

 

If there's evidence of a crime then prosecute the offenders. But don't punish the entire community, no matter how strange that community seems to the rest of the world

[jimshiz]

There was no legal cause for the authorities going in in the first place. That, unfortunately, makes everything the authorities found out after they illegally went in not admissible. It is classic "Star Chamber" stuff.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

You don't shoot all the dogs because you think some of them might have fleas.

[BillsWatch]

They had justification for search - legal cause is another issue.

 

They ought to prosecute every one who gave false names, parents, etc. A great deal of the confusion was part of the decision to not cooperate.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You don't shoot all the dogs because you think some of them might have fleas.

 

You do if those fleas are bubonic plague. Nice flea tie in aye?

 

 

IMO, they shouldn't have went with the "blanket approach"... Why didn't they get all their ducks in a row and know who and what were the real perps?

[fisheralum]

This was, and still is, Big Brother at its worst. Violation of first, third, and fourth amendment rights, all justified because of a fake phone call from a 32-year-old woman in Colorado, pretending to be a 16-year-old girl trapped in a forced marraige, to a man, as it turns out, who had not set foot in Texas in over 20 years. I sure hope heads roll on this. Amazingly, a child protective services official, Marleigh Meisner, who oversaw these kidnappings, was also involved in the disastrous rush to judgment at David Koresh's Waco compound in 1993. And the statements by the officials in charge of this. When CPS starts issuing press releases, instead of talking to the lawyers, that should raise a red flag to even a blind man. Turns out, there was no ritual sex bed, there were not 31 underage pregnant girls. All lies, to us through the media, and disgarceful idiots like Nancy Grace. Now, I'm not banging the media on this, because we would not know what we do now, if there were not some reporters diligent enough to bring these facts out. I'm ashamed of the State of Texas. But at the same time I'm proud of these three Texas judges. This story is far from over. Bureacrats don't like to go away all that easily.

 

You know, this country rounded up American citizens of Japanese desent, after Pearl Harbor, because of fear. And we know now, that was wrong. I think this too, was also particially about fear. Fear of people who are different, people who are secretive, people who, you know, aren't from around these parts.

 

 

A famous quote:

 

 

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

[KD in CA]

There was no legal cause for the authorities going in in the first place.

 

 

Well, other than a bunch of guys setting up a compound apparently for the express purpose of banging 13 year old girls.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

Well, other than a bunch of guys setting up a compound apparently for the express purpose of banging 13 year old girls.

 

What do the Catholics have to do with any of this?

[KD in CA]

What do the Catholics have to do with any of this?

 

Nothing. They bang 13 year old boys.

 

Learn your religions already.

[Steely Dan]

I have a strange and kooky idea:

Ask the kids if they want to go back

 

If some want to go back, let them. If some don't want to go back, don't force them

 

If there's evidence of a crime then prosecute the offenders. But don't punish the entire community, no matter how strange that community seems to the rest of the world

 

The problem is that the whole community is brainwashed to distrust outsiders and that sex at pubecent ages to men in their 50's and 60's is ok. In fact it will anger God if they don't submit to the leaders directives.

 

 

There was no legal cause for the authorities going in in the first place. That, unfortunately, makes everything the authorities found out after they illegally went in not admissible. It is classic "Star Chamber" stuff.

 

A fake phone call is legal reason to go in if they truly believe it came from someone inside the compound. I saw a lawyer discussing this case and he said it was not a problem for them to go in and look for the girl Sarah. It's also common sense. If the police receive a call saying that a woman is being held in the basement of a specific house and the police go and find a man being held in that house can the guy who was holding the man get out of it by saying the original phone call was wrong? If the police had no solid evidence to enter the compound then they'd be in trouble but having a realistic sounding phone call is good enough reason to enter. If they had taken this call and done nothing about it what would have happened if the media found out? Would the police be liable for ignoring the situation? Especially, if it was a real phone call.

 

This was, and still is, Big Brother at its worst. Violation of first, third, and fourth amendment rights, all justified because of a fake phone call from a 32-year-old woman in Colorado, pretending to be a 16-year-old girl trapped in a forced marraige, to a man, as it turns out, who had not set foot in Texas in over 20 years. I sure hope heads roll on this. Amazingly, a child protective services official, Marleigh Meisner, who oversaw these kidnappings, was also involved in the disastrous rush to judgment at David Koresh's Waco compound in 1993. And the statements by the officials in charge of this. When CPS starts issuing press releases, instead of talking to the lawyers, that should raise a red flag to even a blind man. Turns out, there was no ritual sex bed, there were not 31 underage pregnant girls. All lies, to us through the media, and disgarceful idiots like Nancy Grace. Now, I'm not banging the media on this, because we would not know what we do now, if there were not some reporters diligent enough to bring these facts out. I'm ashamed of the State of Texas. But at the same time I'm proud of these three Texas judges. This story is far from over. Bureacrats don't like to go away all that easily.

 

You know, this country rounded up American citizens of Japanese desent, after Pearl Harbor, because of fear. And we know now, that was wrong. I think this too, was also particially about fear. Fear of people who are different, people who are secretive, people who, you know, aren't from around these parts.

 

 

A famous quote:

 

 

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

 

I'm not saying that what the government ended up doing in WACO was right but what should they have done? A UPS driver drops a box headed to the Koresh compound and out spill a bunch of unfilled hand grenade casings? The compound had enough food to last at least six months maybe more. What do you think they should have done?

 

There weren't 31 underage pregnant girls but there were underage pregnant girls. The ritual bed they found wasn't used for marriage consumations, supposedly, but we do know from several defectors from the ranch that child abuse and sexual abuse is common there. They had every right to enter there and every right to take those children under suspicion of abuse, IMO.

 

Did you read the article about Warren Jeffs?

 

When the DNA tests come back and they find evidence of inbreeding what do you think they should do then?

 

 

What do the Catholics have to do with any of this?

 

[fisheralum]

The problem is that the whole community is brainwashed to distrust outsiders and that sex at pubecent ages to men in their 50's and 60's is ok. In fact it will anger God if they don't submit to the leaders directives.

 

 

 

 

A fake phone call is legal reason to go in if they truly believe it came from someone inside the compound. I saw a lawyer discussing this case and he said it was not a problem for them to go in and look for the girl Sarah. It's also common sense. If the police receive a call saying that a woman is being held in the basement of a specific house and the police go and find a man being held in that house can the guy who was holding the man get out of it by saying the original phone call was wrong? If the police had no solid evidence to enter the compound then they'd be in trouble but having a realistic sounding phone call is good enough reason to enter. If they had taken this call and done nothing about it what would have happened if the media found out? Would the police be liable for ignoring the situation? Especially, if it was a real phone call.

 

 

 

I'm not saying that what the government ended up doing in WACO was right but what should they have done? A UPS driver drops a box headed to the Koresh compound and out spill a bunch of unfilled hand grenade casings? The compound had enough food to last at least six months maybe more. What do you think they should have done?

 

There weren't 31 underage pregnant girls but there were underage pregnant girls. The ritual bed they found wasn't used for marriage consumations, supposedly, but we do know from several defectors from the ranch that child abuse and sexual abuse is common there. They had every right to enter there and every right to take those children under suspicion of abuse, IMO.

 

Did you read the article about Warren Jeffs?

 

When the DNA tests come back and they find evidence of inbreeding what do you think they should do then?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Underage pregnant girls? There were two, of the 52, and one of those turned out to be 18. I wonder how that compares with any federally subsidized housing project, trailer park, or average high school, anywhere in America. It's already obvious CPS has not been honest with the public about any of this. Now, what were they supposed to do? Not support a religious vendetta. Not kidnap 468 children, and farm them out all over the state, not even keeping the children from the same families together. This was a well planned attack. It was not about a phone call, or an imaginary 16-year-old. Stand up for the constitution, and don't make excuses about the thugary CPS thought they could get away with.

 

Waco? I'm certain I know way more than you'll ever know.

[Alaska Darin]

Underage pregnant girls? There were two, of the 52, and one of those turned out to be 18. I wonder how that compares with any federally subsidized housing project, trailer park, or average high school, anywhere in America. It's already obvious CPS has not been honest with the public about any of this. Now, what were they supposed to do? Not support a religious vendetta. Not kidnap 468 children, and farm them out all over the state, not even keeping the children from the same families together. This was a well planned attack. It was not about a phone call, or an imaginary 16-year-old. Stand up for the constitution, and don't make excuses about the thugary CPS thought they could get away with.

 

Waco? I'm certain I know way more than you'll ever know.

You left out expensive. I can only imagine what this is going to cost the taxpayers when it's all finally settled...

[Steely Dan]

Underage pregnant girls? There were two, of the 52, and one of those turned out to be 18. I wonder how that compares with any federally subsidized housing project, trailer park, or average high school, anywhere in America. It's already obvious CPS has not been honest with the public about any of this. Now, what were they supposed to do? Not support a religious vendetta. Not kidnap 468 children, and farm them out all over the state, not even keeping the children from the same families together. This was a well planned attack. It was not about a phone call, or an imaginary 16-year-old. Stand up for the constitution, and don't make excuses about the thugary CPS thought they could get away with.

 

Waco? I'm certain I know way more than you'll ever know.

 

I didn't ask you what you knew about Waco. I asked you what they should have done.

 

Also, those were the only "pregnant" girls when they showed up. I also asked you what they should do when it's proven there is a lot of inbreeding going on when the DNA tests come back but you've ignored these questions and just continued to rant. If the DNA tests prove that 15 year old girls are mothers of small children and older women have daughters 13 or 14 years younger than them what should be done? I already pointed out, and you've ignored, that there is a lot of evidence from former members of the FLDS church and testimony from the trial of Warren Jeffs to have reasonable cause to move cautiously in this case. I don't think they've done much wrong here but obviously the Texas courts do in the cases of these kids. I see another Waco happening if these kids are returned and then the evidence shows up that they are inbred and children of children themselves and need to be removed again.

[fisheralum]

I didn't ask you what you knew about Waco. I asked you what they should have done.

 

Also, those were the only "pregnant" girls when they showed up. I also asked you what they should do when it's proven there is a lot of inbreeding going on when the DNA tests come back but you've ignored these questions and just continued to rant. If the DNA tests prove that 15 year old girls are mothers of small children and older women have daughters 13 or 14 years younger than them what should be done? I already pointed out, and you've ignored, that there is a lot of evidence from former members of the FLDS church and testimony from the trial of Warren Jeffs to have reasonable cause to move cautiously in this case. I don't think they've done much wrong here but obviously the Texas courts do in the cases of these kids. I see another Waco happening if these kids are returned and then the evidence shows up that they are inbred and children of children themselves and need to be removed again.

 

I didn't want to discuss Waco. Is that what this thread was about? They could have done a hundred things differently at Waco. But nothing can be done about any of that now. And your DNA question was loaded, full of assumptions. Where are you getting all of your supposed evidence, from Nancy Grace? I think some of the FLDS may have some things to answer for.

 

Meanwhile, I think the abused 16-year-old girl is busily building weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as we speak.

[Steely Dan]

I didn't want to discuss Waco. Is that what this thread was about? They could have done a hundred things differently at Waco. But nothing can be done about any of that now. And your DNA question was loaded, full of assumptions. Where are you getting all of your supposed evidence, from Nancy Grace? I think some of the FLDS may have some things to answer for.

 

Meanwhile, I think the abused 16-year-old girl is busily building weapons of mass destruction in Iraq as we speak.

 

Go out and get the book "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and then tell me what you think of the FLDS.

 

I never brought up Waco til you did. You said it was a disastrous rush to judgment in the Waco case and I'm asking you what they should have done after a load of empty grenade casings tumble out of a package being sent there. You seem loathe to answer the question because there isn't anything much better you could suggest, IMO.

 

Nice try at trying to change the subject by making an absurd remark. Why don't you just give your best shot at answering my questions or do you have no reasonable answers?

[fisheralum]

Go out and get the book "Under The Banner Of Heaven" and then tell me what you think of the FLDS.

 

I never brought up Waco til you did. You said it was a disastrous rush to judgment in the Waco case and I'm asking you what they should have done after a load of empty grenade casings tumble out of a package being sent there. You seem loathe to answer the question because there isn't anything much better you could suggest, IMO.

 

Nice try at trying to change the subject by making an absurd remark. Why don't you just give your best shot at answering my questions or do you have no reasonable answers?

 

 

Because your questions are stupid. The UPS driver dropped a box he was delivering to the site. A fake grenade rolled out of the torn box. The driver thought it was real and reported it. The Davidians made most of their money legally selling firearms at gunshows. Thay had a licence to do that. Fake paperweights grenades were one of the items. So what could they have done? Nothing. That's what. Not jump to conclusions? Or arrest David Koresh quietly during one of his many outings. Or not show up in full battle gear at Denny's on the way to the compound. What idiots. They could have done a hundred things different. There's the answer to one your loaded questions. Now that said, there apparently were some real live grenades in the compound. At least that is what the government later told us. I still don't want to talk about Waco. I brought up Waco, not just because of some similarities, but because some of the same people are involved.

 

It's obvious you have some pre-existing opinions about the FLDS. Now, I'm no fan of the FLDS. But I believe some of their rights were violated. I believe Texas acted hastilly, and without proper cause. Three Texas judges agree with me.