The Falcons are the #8 pick and are looking to draft a S.

[Dawgg]

Marv is to blame for passing on a deal that would have improved the franchise significantly more and cost a lot less than standing pat and reaching on Whitner.

 

One more thing, you have just confused me (that's not hard, I fairly easily confused). Let me see if I have this right: Marv is to blame for the reach on Whitner, but he doesn't get credit for a good draft. Do I have that right?

[BillsVet]

I agree it's too early to give the draft a FINAL grade. But, just like in school, grades are given throughout the "semester". I'd consider a preliminary grade after one year to be something along the lines of a quarter-term grade. So, far, last years draft is contributing to the team at a very high level.

 

I didn't realize we had decided Allen was a bust and McCargo was a difference maker (I never get the memos anymore). but, for what it's worth, McCargo seemed to be improving and contributing before he got injured. OTOH, Allen was healthy all year and never managed to break through (a VERY weak secondary) to become a starter. Still, he may end up being fine.

 

Giving preliminary draft grades is fine, as long as you qualify the grade, IMO. Giving draft grades right after the draft, before any have played a game in the NFL, is just a meaningless exercise.

 

One more thing, you have just confused me (that's not hard, I fairly easily confused). Let me see if I have this right: Marv is to blame for the reach on Whitner, but he doesn't get credit for a good draft. Do I have that right?

 

I believe Marv works more in concert with the other leaders they have in the front office...Overdorf, Modrak, Guy, and DJ than most GM's do with their front office types. To blame one individual is ridiculous for any decision because we simply don't know how they arrived at the Whitner and McCargo decisions. I'm willing to bet the decision was made by committee, much like C. Bennett was in 87. And I'm willing to bet DJ being the defense first type had a big hand in it.

 

I'll go along with mid-term grades, they've had some 06 picks play considerable time, but I still believe they played because their options were so limited and not because those picks were better. The second season will tell so much in an NFL career. It's make or break in many instances. Not all careers, but most.

 

McCargo is a huge question mark. He was beaten out by a 5th rounder for PT, so his play this season might indicate where he goes from here. If he's lackluster, well, the draft doesn't look as hot as what some make it out to be. If his injuries preclude him from playing, I'd say that they gambled with a 1st rounder and lost. At that point we can't call him a bust, but his play could change the fortunes of a defense that could not stop the run all season. We'll have to wait and see.

[The Dean]

Do you believe that Whitner was the ONLY option in the first round for the Bills?

 

Apparently so...

 

We'll continue this debate at Northstar

 

 

I don't believe he was the only option. He was the player Marv wanted. Marv wasn't sure he could trade down and still get him, so he took him at #8 (and made a trade to get a second #1). The guy was a solid starter in his first season and was one the few sure tacklers on this defense. You can always woulda-shoulda after any draft (about any player). Bottom line is, so far it looks like he was right about Whitner. He was one of the top 10 rookie performers in the NFL last year.

 

As for the Star. I hope to see you there at some point, but I am being held prisoner in St Augustine Beach. Florida, these days. I will return to SF (for a visit soon and eventually, for good, I hope). Keep the flame burning at the Star and tell Ed to make sure there is George Dickel on hand for when I get there.

[Tipster19]

Do you believe that Whitner was the ONLY option in the first round for the Bills?

 

 

I believe that he was the only option for S. If this is the position that you can build your defense on and make it work, then why would people be disappointed in this selection. I must admit, I was initially but in hindsight I'm thrilled. Taking Bunkley or Ngata would have never given us the option of selecting a valid S. A choice had to be made and I think Marv did an excellent job in prioritizing his positions of need. McCargo was deemed the third best DT. We were able to get our starting S, who according to Marv he liked Whitner the most anyways, and still address our need at DT with a well thought of player.

[The Dean]

I believe Marv works more in concert with the other leaders they have in the front office...Overdorf, Modrak, Guy, and DJ than most GM's do with their front office types. To blame one individual is ridiculous for any decision because we simply don't know how they arrived at the Whitner and McCargo decisions. I'm willing to bet the decision was made by committee, much like C. Bennett was in 87. And I'm willing to bet DJ being the defense first type had a big hand in it.

 

I'll go along with mid-term grades, they've had some 06 picks play considerable time, but I still believe they played because their options were so limited and not because those picks were better. The second season will tell so much in an NFL career. It's make or break in many instances. Not all careers, but most.

 

McCargo is a huge question mark. He was beaten out by a 5th rounder for PT, so his play this season might indicate where he goes from here. If he's lackluster, well, the draft doesn't look as hot as what some make it out to be. If his injuries preclude him from playing, I'd say that they gambled with a 1st rounder and lost. At that point we can't call him a bust, but his play could change the fortunes of a defense that could not stop the run all season. We'll have to wait and see.

 

I agree with all of that, for the most part. Although, if you're 5th rounder beats out your 1st rounder, that MIGHT say something about your 5th rounder and your scouting depts ability to find hidden gems. The total draft grade wouldn't change much, IMO if the 5th rounder ended up being the solid starter and the #1 a good rotational guy, instead of the other way around. The money for the two is the same and the output for the two is the same. Big picture...big picture.

 

Marv works in concert with others as GM, just as he did as HC. He knows the game, is a great manager and motivator. I can't find many reasons to doubt his ability to turn this thing totally around. This is tough for me to say about anyone but I gotta say: Trust in Marv. He's earned it, IMO. As an old and very experienced manager, I've learned that, when you have someone talented, with a good track record, who you trust...you let them do the job their way and judge them on the total result of their efforts (not on each individual decision, out of context). So far, it looks as though Marv is doing a fine job of changing this team for the better. Hell, I didn't like the Whitner choice when it happened. WTF?, I thought. But, it worked.

 

All I ask is that some of you give Marv the time it takes to do the job right. How many here went crazy when Saban went to Miami and thought, "The Bills are Doomed"? Look what happened there.

 

When you look at the whole, I think Miami is going through a lot of what the Bills experienced a few years ago:

 

Veteran QB (slow and past his prime) is brought in to be the guy...fails and sets the team back.

 

New Head Coach replaces the old/crappy head coach and is the guy...fails and sets the team back

 

...etc...

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but i think Marv was brought in to turn this team around in three (or so) years...then pass it one, in good shape...to a younger long-term GM. The Bills could have ended up with the culture of Miami/Cincy/Jacksonvillle...Marv won't let that happen. The Bills could go for the quick fix like the Redskins...Marv and Ralph won't let that happen. The Bills could keep trying a failed pattern like the Lions...again, Marv would never do that.

 

Marv is re-building this team to be young, smart and hungry. He's managed to do it while WINNING more games in his first year of the turnover than the previous year. I expect more improvement (despite the losses) this year. By 2008 (the third year of the Marv program) this should be a SB contender...certainly a solid playoff team. I see nothing in the moves-to-date to change my mind on that.

[BillsVet]

I agree with all of that, for the most part. Although, if you're 5th rounder beats out your 1st rounder, that MIGHT say something about your 5th rounder and your scouting depts ability to find hidden gems. The total draft grade wouldn't change much, IMO if the 5th rounder ended up being the solid starter and the #1 a good rotational guy, instead of the other way around. The money for the two is the same and the output for the two is the same. Big picture...big picture.

 

Marv works in concert with others as GM, just as he did as HC. He knows the game, is a great manager and motivator. I can't find many reasons to doubt his ability to turn this thing totally around. This is tough for me to say about anyone but I gotta say: Trust in Marv. He's earned it, IMO. As an old and very experienced manager, I've learned that, when you have someone talented, with a good track record, who you trust...you let them do the job their way and judge them on the total result of their efforts (not on each individual decision, out of context). So far, it looks as though Marv is doing a fine job of changing this team for the better. Hell, I didn't like the Whitner choice when it happened. WTF?, I thought. But, it worked.

 

All I ask is that some of you give Marv the time it takes to do the job right. How many here went crazy when Saban went to Miami and thought, "The Bills are Doomed"? Look what happened there.

 

When you look at the whole, I think Miami is going through a lot of what the Bills experienced a few years ago:

 

Veteran QB (slow and past his prime) is brought in to be the guy...fails and sets the team back.

 

New Head Coach replaces the old/crappy head coach and is the guy...fails and sets the team back

 

...etc...

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but i think Marv was brought in to turn this team around in three (or so) years...then pass it one, in good shape...to a younger long-term GM. The Bills could have ended up with the culture of Miami/Cincy/Jacksonvillle...Marv won't let that happen. The Bills could go for the quick fix like the Redskins...Marv and Ralph won't let that happen. The Bills could keep trying a failed pattern like the Lions...again, Marv would never do that.

 

Marv is re-building this team to be young, smart and hungry. He's managed to do it while WINNING more games in his first year of the turnover than the previous year. I expect more improvement (despite the losses) this year. By 2008 (the third year of the Marv program) this should be a SB contender...certainly a solid playoff team. I see nothing in the moves-to-date to change my mind on that.

 

 

Dean you and I always seem to start out rough and then slowly come to agreement. Funny stuff.

 

I think K. Williams was an excellent college player. He always plays with heart and a "high motor." But in the NFL that's not always enough. We'll see how both he and McCargo contribute next season. I'm just not convinced he can provide part of the solution at DT yet. Our run defense criticism seems to wane during the off-season, but during the regular season we weren't stopping anyone. How much upside Williams has is the question. Can he improve or is he the type that has maxed out his abilities?

 

Marv is indeed rebuilding this team. He was left with a bill of goods that went 5-11 in 05 but ultimately had some talent. TD did leave him Losman, Evans, Peters, Schobel, Kelsay, Crowell, and others. He didn't start from scratch but did have some big decisions to make with NC, and this season whether or not to let WM, LFB, and TKO depart.

 

The 2006 draft has to be one of the more polarizing events in team history. What's done is done...you and I can talk all we want but it's not going to make a difference. Whitner is on the team and most likely the starter for the forseeable future.

 

Marv's signature will continue to be more predominant on this team. Whether or not he can build a winner with reduced financial means remains to be seen. Either way, he's working with a lot less than most GM's in that regard. He's probably got one of the hardest jobs in football-having to work for a penny-pinching owner and still deliver. I hope he can do it.

[BuffaloBilliever]

Good point. I'm sure there will be some excuses made for why it is now OK for Atlanta to take a safety at #8 and it wasn't for us. Oh, I see one already: "Landry is projected to go in the top 10". But, I'm sure it was ok to take Huff at #7, but not ok for us to draft Whitner at #8. Lame at best.

 

Of course, it was OK for Oakland to draft a player they wanted to start at SS, we were "crazy" or must be "senile" to do the same. Right. Maybe we should ask: How many awards did Huff get last year? = 0. As I recall Donte Whitner got Rookie of the Month.

 

Oh and I already know the other excuse for Huff: "He was on a bad team". Not true at all in terms of defense - Oakland ended up ranked 3rd.

 

And, as far as Whitner vs. Huff in terms of stats?

 

Year Team G Total Tkl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def

Huff 2006 Oakland Raiders 16 78 64.0 14 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 1

Whitner 2006 Buffalo Bills 15 104 67.0 37 0 1 10 10.0 10 0 4

 

But I'm sure LaRon Landry will put up 120 tackles this year and at least 5 picks , which is why it will be ok to take him at #8. The Bills are still nuts for taking Whitner at 8.

 

Edit: And, if you have a guy rated high, which Marv obviously did - and based on results was 100% correct, you don't !@#$ about and trade down hoping he will be there later. You take him now. Why? Because there is a reason the press "experts" aren't GMs, and the real experts - the guys who have the job, are. Chances are that Marv wasn't the only guy who had Whitner rated high - therefore no reason to !@#$ around. I hope we do the same thing this year with our top rated guy.

 

...A-freakin-men.

 

Nicely stated. It was said THAT DAY that the Lions and another team I'm not certain of atm were thinking of taking Donte right after the Bills.

[Tipster19]

...A-freakin-men.

 

Nicely stated. It was said THAT DAY that the Lions and another team I'm not certain of atm were thinking of taking Donte right after the Bills.

 

 

I believe that it was St. Louis at #15.

[Dawgg]

.. and God forbid if Whitner was taken and the Bills missed out on him... that would be the end of the NFL in Buffalo.

 

Move the team.

 

It's over...

 

 

...A-freakin-men.

 

Nicely stated. It was said THAT DAY that the Lions and another team I'm not certain of atm were thinking of taking Donte right after the Bills.

[The Dean]

Dean you and I always seem to start out rough and then slowly come to agreement. Funny stuff.

 

 

That's because, while we both have strong opinions, we aren't !@#$s. We listen, bicker, concede, etc. Good stuff, BV.

 

BTW, pretty much agreed on all the other stuff. We will see...one way or the other. Also, I'm not sure Marv's REALLY operating with a terribly restricted budget. I know Ralph's not just going to throw $$ around like Snyder, but, i think if Marv and the team REALLY want something, and can justify it, they will get it.

 

IMO, it is as it should be.

[Bill from NYC]

I agree with all of that, for the most part. Although, if you're 5th rounder beats out your 1st rounder, that MIGHT say something about your 5th rounder and your scouting depts ability to find hidden gems. The total draft grade wouldn't change much, IMO if the 5th rounder ended up being the solid starter and the #1 a good rotational guy, instead of the other way around. The money for the two is the same and the output for the two is the same. Big picture...big picture.

 

All true, but the problem is that when you miss on an early pick, it is a done deal and it costs money, as well as a roster spot.

 

Marv seems to have done a good job on day 2 of 06. This is virtually beyond dispute imo.

That said, he entered day 1 with 4 early picks. He came away with a small safety who was arrested, a DT with a history of injuries who was injured yet again, and a CB who barely saw the field despite the loss of Nate on the horizon and a shaky at times McGee. Woops....I forgot, his grandmother died.

 

People on this board portray the above is good, but it simply wasn't. Marv himself stated that he was offered more than a 2nd to trade down. Instead, he chose to trade AWAY a pick to be able to complete this mess, and take yet another DB in the 4th to boot.

 

It is great to like Marv. He seems like a great guy. I do however suggest that you take a close look at the needs of the 07 Bills, and watch what he does on April 28th. You want a RB? A LB?

Say hello to him.

 

Watch and see.

[BillsVet]

That's because, while we both have strong opinions, we aren't !@#$s. We listen, bicker, concede, etc. Good stuff, BV.

 

BTW, pretty much agreed on all the other stuff. We will see...one way or the other. Also, I'm not sure Marv's REALLY operating with a terribly restricted budget. I know Ralph's not just going to throw $$ around like Snyder, but, i think if Marv and the team REALLY want something, and can justify it, they will get it.

 

IMO, it is as it should be.

 

I've read in multiple areas that perhaps Buffalo is positioning itself for the 2008 free agent class. We know Briggs isn't happy in Chicago and is probably playing out the season. Not sure as to else will be available, but you never know.

 

Perhaps C to the C is just a one year phenomenon.

[The Dean]

All true, but the problem is that when you miss on an early pick, it is a done deal and it costs money, as well as a roster spot.

 

Marv seems to have done a good job on day 2 of 06. This is virtually beyond dispute imo.

That said, he entered day 1 with 4 early picks. He came away with a small safety who was arrested, a DT with a history of injuries who was injured yet again, and a CB who barely saw the field despite the loss of Nate on the horizon and a shaky at times McGee. Woops....I forgot, his grandmother died.

 

People on this board portray the above is good, but it simply wasn't. Marv himself stated that he was offered more than a 2nd to trade down. Instead, he chose to trade AWAY a pick to be able to complete this mess, and take yet another DB in the 4th to boot.

 

It is great to like Marv. He seems like a great guy. I do however suggest that you take a close look at the needs of the 07 Bills, and watch what he does on April 28th. You want a RB? A LB?

Say hello to him.

 

Watch and see.

 

I think you are taking a micro-management view to Marv's rebuilding. Again, hind sight is 20-20 and you can always, in retrospect, say "You could have done BETTER if you took A instead of B". That's a bulls#it approach to me.

 

First of all, the height of a safety is of relative unimportance as far as I'm concerned. HIT, motherfuc#er! That's the main thing. Tackle correctly and be able to cover. Whitner fits the Bills to a T and did so from the get-go. It's hard to ask for more from a rookie safety. We'll see if he develops into a legit #* pick, but, so far so good.

 

The jury is certainly out on McCargo. i like what he showed the week before he went down...but, that's certainly not much to go on. i suspect he'll be a decent rotational guy.

 

As far as the Sheik goes, it's all speculation. You can't blame Marv for what happened last year. (Even with this total wash, it was a good draft, or so it seems.) But, the consensus was (even among those that hated the Bills draft) that Youboty was a steal. I expect him to surprise this year (we've had pretty good luck with OSU DBs), but I'd feel better adding a vet for depth.

 

The problem with looking at, and judging, individual moves is, it doesn't take into consideration what Marv knows (and/or believes). You might criticize last year's draft because it didn't address the OL. Well, lookie-see what happened this offseason. I trust Marv (and company) are looking at WAY more data than we can imagine and have moves planned for the next two-to-three years. Hell, if I were doing the job, I would have that planned.

[Dibs]

A large risk of what? Of a team with suckass lines on both sides of the ball not being able to select a small safety in a stocked draft?

 

PG, you know how much I respect both you and your posts, or so I hope after all these years, but you DO need to take your head out of Levy's a$$ for just 5 minutes, and at least explore the possibility that Whitner was not the only way to go in the 06 draft.

There are certainly some who believe that Marv & Co. achieved the best they could in the draft & that Whitner was the only way to go. Sure....with them....call them out & make fun of them. They are deluded. There is always a potential better way to go.....particularly with hindsight.

What you(and others) argue however is not that the Whitner decision was one of many reasonable options.....but was in & of itself a bad decision. This has not shown itself to be the case. It may do, but a majority would agree it's leaning towards a successful pick.

 

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Just because(in hindsight) a decision is not the best decision.....does not mean that it is a bad one.

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People have said bad lines. We drafted a DT in the 1st round. Surely that counteracts the arguments that the DL was ignored.....even if McCargo does not pan out we certainly spent resources addressing the unit.

We now have the potential for a good OL. Rome......not being built in a day....built it's OL in the second year when they had a better understanding of how good Peters could be at LT. I would have done it in year 1 myself.....& who knows, might have ended up waisting resources on a stud LT that I didn't need.

(Speaking of OL, I'll be PMing you soon to get your input on great OTs....I'm finally doing my study )

 

I don't understand peoples problems with this. There are many ways to skin a cat......so Marv didn't follow your way....that does not mean his way won't work.....or that your way wasn't better.....or his way isn't better. Time will tell.