So, tell me

[Dr. Trooth]

Big bad Kris Diehlman was supposed to be the #1 rated guard in FA. He ends up with a 6 yr. deal with SDfor 39M (cuz Seattle wouldn't pay that) ... Well... the #1 FA guard just got dumped to #3. Both Steinbach and Dockery got more... and, the difference between Steinbach's and Dockery's deal is less than $72k/yr.

 

My point is simply this.

 

A lot of folks seem to think because the media says or prints something that it is gospel. Especially when it comes to rating players for FA or the draft. Then... when it doesn't go their way, they trash the team and their mgt. for incompetency... and the fans buy it. If they were so smart... why couldn't they see Dockery and Walker coming.... Absolutely no one called that... just like no one called the Whitner selection... and just like no one is going to call #12 this year.

 

These media boys, aka Mort, Pencil neck Clayton, Palentonio, Prisco, etc. are nothing more than a bunch of girly men that immerse themselves in the gossip circuit. They don't put in 16-18 hour days studying the intricacies of each player, they don't sit in on all day meetings discussing and rating players, they aren't privy to a team's financial strategy in regards to the salary cap, and lastly... they don't have a clue as to the path, approach, or what specific schemes a team has designed, so how the frick can they know what the optimal skill set (or player) a team is looking for?

 

So... next time you read or listen to the experts. Remember... these guys are really just here to entertain you and yank your chain. Let Marv and Dick run the show and trust that their collective imtelligence far exceeds the collective intelligence of the entire media and so called experts. Most of all, now is not the time to B word about the player decisions and aquistions they make... for the very reason Im mention above. If there is one thing you hate as a person doing a job, it is formulating a plan that you will implement and execute and then having everyone and their brother critique and tear it down before even given a chance to put the plan into action, let alone seeing the results. Just sit back and let Marv and Dick do their jobs... when it doesn't work on the field... that's the time to throw stones... not before.

[DrDawkinstein]

Diehlman voluntarily took less to stay in San Diego...

[Ozymandius]

Ummm, did you happen to notice the reports that Dielman ordered his agent to work something out with SD... i.e. hometown discount?

[Christopher Capolupo]

Although I agree with you on some points.. Just because a guy signs for less doesn't make him a better or worse player.. Does Nate Clements become the best defensive back in the league because he got more more money than any of them? No, it just so happens that someone was willing to pay more for that guy. Dielman wanted to play for San Diego so he signed for a contract that fit their situation. Seattle was willing to pay him more btw.

[BillsVet]

I guess Mike Holmgren and the idea of blocking for Shaun Alexander wasn't enough to make the money worth it. Seattle has struck out twice now, first with Hutchinson and the poison pill deal Minnesota supplied and now with Dielman.

 

Everyone knows Steinbach, Dielman, and Dockery were top guards. I just find it interesting that they were, in order, a former 2nd round pick, a UDFA, and a 3rd rounder.

 

Dielman is excellent, and his taking less to stay with SD shouldn't be a factor in deciding his positional ranking for 2007 free agency.

[Dr. Trooth]

Diehlman voluntarily took less to stay in San Diego...

 

Prove it. Did Diehlman ever state what he turned down? Or, are you relying on media gossip that has no merit?

[LynchMob23]

And, in terms of guaranteed moolah, our deal for Dockery is like 5/23 or something like that at the end of the day. Those last two years, while nice, probably will be re-structured at the end of the day. So really, on the market he took a little less to stay with SD, but he also is being paid at an elite level.

[Astrobot]

Big bad Kris Diehlman was supposed to be the #1 rated guard in FA. He ends up with a 6 yr. deal with SDfor 39M (cuz Seattle wouldn't pay that) ... Well... the #1 FA guard just got dumped to #3. Both Steinbach and Dockery got more... and, the difference between Steinbach's and Dockery's deal is less than $72k/yr.

 

My point is simply this.

 

A lot of folks seem to think because the media says or prints something that it is gospel. Especially when it comes to rating players for FA or the draft. Then... when it doesn't go their way, they trash the team and their mgt. for incompetency... and the fans buy it. If they were so smart... why couldn't they see Dockery and Walker coming.... Absolutely no one called that... just like no one called the Whitner selection... and just like no one is going to call #12 this year.

 

These media boys, aka Mort, Pencil neck Clayton, Palentonio, Prisco, etc. are nothing more than a bunch of girly men that immerse themselves in the gossip circuit. They don't put in 16-18 hour days studying the intricacies of each player, they don't sit in on all day meetings discussing and rating players, they aren't privy to a team's financial strategy in regards to the salary cap, and lastly... they don't have a clue as to the path, approach, or what specific schemes a team has designed, so how the frick can they know what the optimal skill set (or player) a team is looking for?

 

So... next time you read or listen to the experts. Remember... these guys are really just here to entertain you and yank your chain. Let Marv and Dick run the show and trust that their collective imtelligence far exceeds the collective intelligence of the entire media and so called experts. Most of all, now is not the time to B word about the player decisions and aquistions they make... for the very reason Im mention above. If there is one thing you hate as a person doing a job, it is formulating a plan that you will implement and execute and then having everyone and their brother critique and tear it down before even given a chance to put the plan into action, let alone seeing the results. Just sit back and let Marv and Dick do their jobs... when it doesn't work on the field... that's the time to throw stones... not before.

 

You speak Trooth, except that as fans we have to do something between the Super Bowl and draft day. For me, the draft research and the FA intrigue is fabulous mental exercise, cheaper than eBay or Guinness, and a great hobby. I will not sit back.

[Dr. Trooth]

So really, on the market he took a little less to stay with SD, but he also is being paid at an elite level.

 

How do you know? Have you compared apples to apples? How do you know the last two years of Diehlman's deal are not backloaded... you presume the other two's are. Why just be cause of 1 yr. difference in term? The facts are...

 

Steinbach 7/49.5 (7.07)

Dockery 7/49 (7.0)

Diehlman 6/39 (6.5)

 

He was the elite of the elite by the so-called experts. He ain't being paid like that.

 

Anyone care to reveal a CREDIBLE & ACCURATE report stating Diehlman was ever offered, or turned down, $7.1M to sign with Seattle as the pre-eminant top gun at guard... according to our beloved experts?

 

This is beginging to sound a lot like the Ruben Brown fiasco of the late 90's when he thought he was woth $5M/yr. on the open market. When no one else thought he was woth that, he came home, and John Butler foolishly paid him $4M to stay.

[Ozymandius]

Prove it. Did Diehlman ever state what he turned down? Or, are you relying on media gossip that has no merit?

 

Prove that he didn't give a hometown discount...

[Dr. Trooth]

I will not sit back.

 

I ain't advocating that. I'm just saying if FA and the draft don't shake out like you want, it's unfair to criticise those that have worked the hardest, have the most at stake, and are the ones charged to put out the end product on the field. This team may be a significantly better team than last year's and not reflected in the W/L column. The fruits of their labor may not be fully realized for 2 -3 years. And, if it shakes ut the the Bills are the 2010 or 2011 SB winners, how many of us will look back at Marv & Dick's first two years (when the bricks were laid) and acknowledge what fine decisions they made?

[Dr. Trooth]

Prove that he didn't give a hometown discount...

 

I don't have to. The experts say he is the top gun at guard. The contract says otherwise. Why did he bother to go to Seattle? To find out that he wasn't going to be paid like the top gun and then came back to SD to save face and take a hometown discount? If he took a hometown discount, no one was going to offer him significanly more... that's because the real experts... the people that put the end product on the field... are leaps and bounds smarter than the oft worshipped media blowhards. IMO... I don't think he got a hometown discount... he got home cooking... a better deal than he'd have gotten anywhere else.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't have to. The experts say he is the top gun at guard. The contract says otherwise. Why did he bother to go to Seattle? To find out that he wasn't going to be paid like the top gun and then came back to SD to save face and take a hometown discount? If he took a hometown discount, no one was going to offer him significanly more... that's because the real experts... the people that put the end product on the field... are leaps and bounds smarter than the oft worshipped media blowhards. IMO... I don't think he got a hometown discount... he got home cooking... a better deal than he'd have gotten anywhere else.

All the self-proclaimed experts I've read have had them rated:

1) Steinbach

2) Diehlman

3) Dockery

[Bill from NYC]

I'm just saying if FA and the draft don't shake out like you want, it's unfair to criticise those that have worked the hardest, have the most at stake, and are the ones charged to put out the end product on the field.

 

What nonsense.

Pssst.......this is a Bills Message Board, where people post about things they like, and do not like about various personnel moves.

 

I am very happy with free agency so far, and I think that taking Whitner at #8 was a mistake. Does this make me half OK?

 

The best scouts, coaches and GMs in the history of the game have made mistakes. What should we do, go out of our way to praise them at every single turn, under any conditions?

 

Let us know; it will take us all some time to change our styles of posting to make sure that they meet your specifications.

[Dr. Trooth]

I think that taking Whitner at #8 was a mistake. Does this make me half OK?

 

No... just wrong. In hindsight it was a good pick. He's a starter and future star. The secondary... even with two rookies was not the problem for the Bills D woes... it was LB and DT. And, looking back, you can say that "this" player or "that" player would have been a better pick. Better pick? On what basis? Only on opinion... not fact. You and no one else can say, with any certainty, that Whitner was not the right pick. He proved that he was. You do not know what was going through the minds of the folks that count and make the picks. And, you don't have the benefit of what, specifically, they are doing on offense or defense, what specific type of skills, etc. they're looking for in a player, what positions they are looking at, what conversations they've had with prospective draftees, and what key indicators the Bills brass see as pass/fail in a player for this orginization at this time and juncture. EX... Adalius Thomas... everyone wanted the Bills to sign him. He is a great player, no doubt about it. But, how does he fit in with the schemes the Bills play on D? Would it be optimal useage of his skills? If it isn't, should the coaches change everything to accomodate this one player? This is the Difference between Donahoe and Levy. Donahoe took what he thought was the best available player... regardless of how it fit with the rest of the pieces and entier picture. Levy works close with Jauron and plugs the right players into the puzzle.

 

You or anyone else can opine and have that right... but be fair. Many of the posters just outright blast the $hitt out of Marv and Dick for the path they're taking. Until you're able to see the fruits of their labor on the field, it is truly unfair to do that. They took a 5-11 team in their first year at the helm, significantly overhauled it, had to learn who could fish and who was bait, and improved to 7-9 with the league's toughest schedule... and were in the playoff hunt right up to week 16. Even knowing they had a mulligan in year one, they were able to improve with the 2nd youngest team in the league. With Gandy, Villarial, Fletcher, Shelton, possibly Spikes gone, this team may very well be the youngest team now... depending on what other teams do. I think, under the circumstances Marv and Dick have done well. And, folks need to stop calling Marv out because of his age and saying he doesn't have a clue and people blasting Ralph because he won't spend, and he then goes out and proves them wrong. If you think that's fair and right for folks to continually do that, then know one's going to change your mind.

[Orton's Arm]

No... just wrong. In hindsight it was a good pick. He's a starter and future star. The secondary... even with two rookies was not the problem for the Bills D woes... it was LB and DT. And, looking back, you can say that "this" player or "that" player would have been a better pick. Better pick? On what basis? Only on opinion... not fact. You and no one else can say, with any certainty, that Whitner was not the right pick. He proved that he was. You do not know what was going through the minds of the folks that count and make the picks. And, you don't have the benefit of what, specifically, they are doing on offense or defense, what specific type of skills, etc. they're looking for in a player, what positions they are looking at, what conversations they've had with prospective draftees, and what key indicators the Bills brass see as pass/fail in a player for this orginization at this time and juncture. EX... Adalius Thomas... everyone wanted the Bills to sign him. He is a great player, no doubt about it. But, how does he fit in with the schemes the Bills play on D? Would it be optimal useage of his skills? If it isn't, should the coaches change everything to accomodate this one player? This is the Difference between Donahoe and Levy. Donahoe took what he thought was the best available player... regardless of how it fit with the rest of the pieces and entier picture. Levy works close with Jauron and plugs the right players into the puzzle.

 

You or anyone else can opine and have that right... but be fair. Many of the posters just outright blast the $hitt out of Marv and Dick for the path they're taking. Until you're able to see the fruits of their labor on the field, it is truly unfair to do that. They took a 5-11 team in their first year at the helm, significantly overhauled it, had to learn who could fish and who was bait, and improved to 7-9 with the league's toughest schedule... and were in the playoff hunt right up to week 16. Even knowing they had a mulligan in year one, they were able to improve with the 2nd youngest team in the league. With Gandy, Villarial, Fletcher, Shelton, possibly Spikes gone, this team may very well be the youngest team now... depending on what other teams do. I think, under the circumstances Marv and Dick have done well. And, folks need to stop calling Marv out because of his age and saying he doesn't have a clue and people blasting Ralph because he won't spend, and he then goes out and proves them wrong. If you think that's fair and right for folks to continually do that, then know one's going to change your mind.

To me, the Whitner pick was like going out on a date with a 7. She's nice, looks good, and has a brain in her head. But you had to say no to a 9 to go out on that date. In the end, was it really worth it?

 

The Bills could have traded down, and used their first pick on Mangold. Given that Mangold is already one of the best centers in the league, they could have had a (thus far) better player than Whitner, plus a second round pick. Then there's the chance Whitner would have been there later in the first round. I'd have taken Mangold anyway, but that's just me. Those who disagree with the Whitner pick feel Marv fell in love with one particular player, and therefore wasted the opportunity to maximize the benefit of that pick.

[RuntheDamnBall]

To me, the Whitner pick was like going out on a date with a 7. She's nice, looks good, and has a brain in her head. But you had to say no to a 9 to go out on that date. In the end, was it really worth it?

Sure... if the 9 will leave you for a wealthier, more attractive man in a couple years.

[VABills]

Actually according to Scouts, Dockery was #6. Maybe, just maybe the Bills just happened to overpay (or possibly he is moving to RT), and Diehlman got a hometown discount.

 

Eric Steinbach OG UFA 6-6 290 4 Bengals Browns 81 Expert's Take

Kris Dielman OG UFA 6-4 310 4 Chargers Chargers 75 Expert's Take

Ruben Brown OG UFA 6-3 300 12 Bears 69 Expert's Take

Sean Locklear OG RFA 6-3 301 3 Seahawks 68 Expert's Take

Cosey Coleman OG UFA 6-4 310 7 Browns 67 Expert's Take

Rick DeMulling OG UFA 6-4 304 6 Lions 65 Expert's Take

Derrick Dockery OG UFA 6-6 345 4 Redskins Bills 65 Expert's Take

[I 90]

To me, the Whitner pick was like going out on a date with a 7. She's nice, looks good, and has a brain in her head. But you had to say no to a 9 to go out on that date. In the end, was it really worth it?

 

If she ****s like a panther, it was.

 

And by ****s, I mean plays. It is worth bypassing the rewards of tradedown if you get the player you really, really want. Same goes for SIX or SEVEN MILLION DOLLAR GUARDS. Don't cry for poor Mr. Diehlman

[Orton's Arm]

Sure... if the 9 will leave you for a wealthier, more attractive man in a couple years.

Implying, I suppose, that there is such a thing as a more attractive man than me. I'm not sure how many women would agree with you there.

 

But given what just happened to Nate Clements, I think our chances of extending Mangold would have been at least as good as our chances of extending Whitner.