Anyone still think we can afford to lose Clements?

[Chilly]

Are you joking?

 

Jordan Black is a backup

 

Yeah, he's been a backup behind Willie Roaf and Kyle Turley. Gawd, he must suck. (He's actually a pretty decent football player, and I'd like the pickup).

 

Dwayne Carswell? I dont even see him on the FA list

 

Carswell used to be a TE, perhaps thats why?

 

Derrick Dockery ... most likely signed before Free Agency

 

Hell, you could say this about anyone and then claim that there are no FA, much like you are doing. With this logic, we might not even have free agency, everyone will be signed by their team! Just like Hutchinson, Verba, and Bentley were last year!

 

Ryan Lilja ... RESTRICTED Free Agent. Bills probably wont touch him.

 

So what? You don't think the Bills would spend draft picks to sign an offensive lineman whose proven himself to be quality in the NFL? At this point I don't think people would be unhappy with that.

 

Eric Steinbach  ... most likely signed before Free Agency. If he is not we will have to outbid many other teams for his services

 

Again, you could say that about anyone. And so what if we have to outbid many other teams? Thats how FA works, and you are claiming no one is available.

 

Floyd Womack ... I honestly dont know much about him but he seems to be injured often as he has only started 15 games out of the past 4 seasons. Yeah thats someone I want. Someone who will give me 3-4 games a season.

 

He's somewhat injury prone, missing an average of 4 games a season (he missed 16 over the past 4 seasons). He's still a helluva lot better then our guards.

 

Todd Steussie ... I would love to have had Todd. 5 years ago that is. Lets face it. He is going to be in his 14th season next year, reaching near what? 36 or 37 years old? He has only started 10 games in the past 3 years.

 

37. He's started all but one game this year for STL, and even at that age, he's a helluva lot better then Gandy.

 

Not to be rude but your list is garbage. QUALITY lineman are re-signed and those who are not get swapped up QUICKLY.

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Really? Who from this list would not be an upgrade over the Bills' OLmen? You are saying there isn't anyone available, but every single player on this list would upgrade a position on this football team.

[Bills Fan888]

7 million in cap. We could sign Lance Briggs and Asante Samuel.

[BuffOrange]

Most CB's who make plays have a decent defense around them. Find me a playmaker CB who has a bad defense around him.

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Most CB's who make plays also make an occasional play against an actual starting QB.

Schopp on WGR brought this up today and after thinking about it, I think he has a point. Nate basically owes his salary to Ray Lucas, Jay Fiedler, and Tommy Maddox. Other than the Ronnie Brown forced fumble last year, when was the last time he made a play against a competent football player?

[Max997]

We certainly have a ton of other problems, but Im sorry guys,  these last two games should show us that we really cant afford to lose Clements. Flame away.

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anyone who thinks Clements is a shutdown corner isnt watching the same player I am...and what is he doing to help this team right now, I see a player that clearly doesnt want to be here and is playing soft because he probably doesnt want to get hurt and ruin his chance to cash in

 

I personally think franchising him was a mistake, this team wasnt going anywhere this year and spending 7.5 mil or whatever it was on a Corner was a waste of money

[UConn James]

Nate basically owes his salary to Ray Lucas, Jay Fiedler, and Tommy Maddox.

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I hear Ray Lucas is flush with cash since he signed a sponsorship deal with Kleenex.

[daquixers_is_back]

Yeah, he's been a backup behind Willie Roaf and Kyle Turley.  Gawd, he must suck.  (He's actually a pretty decent football player, and I'd like the pickup).

Carswell used to be a TE, perhaps thats why?

Hell, you could say this about anyone and then claim that there are no FA, much like you are doing.  With this logic, we might not even have free agency, everyone will be signed by their team!  Just like Hutchinson, Verba,  and Bentley were last year!

So what?  You don't think the Bills would spend draft picks to sign an offensive lineman whose proven himself to be quality in the NFL?  At this point I don't think people would be unhappy with that.

Again, you could say that about anyone.  And so what if we have to outbid many other teams? Thats how FA works, and you are claiming no one is available.

He's somewhat injury prone, missing an average of 4 games a season (he missed 16 over the past 4 seasons).  He's still a helluva lot better then our guards.

37.  He's started all but one game this year for STL, and even at that age, he's a helluva lot better then Gandy. 

Really?  Who from this list would not be an upgrade over the Bills' OLmen?  You are saying there isn't anyone available, but every single player on this list would upgrade a position on this football team.

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Hell, you could say this about anyone and then claim that there are no FA, much like you are doing.  With this logic, we might not even have free agency, everyone will be signed by their team!  Just like Hutchinson, Verba,  and Bentley were last year!

 

EXACTLY! Thats the point. They WILL be re-signed before free agency starts. Meaning we have 0 chance at even talking to them. Its not possible. Thus their are no quality FA's available.

[daquixers_is_back]

I appologize for the large lettering, I just want people to see this ... Before we go further lets review the facts:

 

1. The Bills will most likely have near 30 MILLION in FREE CAP SPACE this off-season

 

2. Contrary to what you may think, all of the quality offensive/defensive lineman will most likely be re-signed by their team BEFORE Free Agency even starts. If not, then thats great! Go for it. But thats just not going to happen.

 

3. The Bills have a history of letting good players because they dont want to pay them or they think they would be overpaid. This led to the cuts of Pat Williams and Antoine Winfield. BLAH! I wish we had them now.

 

4. If the Bills let Clements go into free agency and sign with another team (he will be easy signed according to ESPN), we could sign every draft pick to whatever ammount of money they want, pick up the best FA scrubs, AND bring in some guys from NFL Europe or CFL or whatever and STILL HAVE about 20 MILLION in free cap space.

 

So why not sign Clements his stupid contract, and build around the good player he is intead of taking a crap-shoot with another player. I would understand if we only had about 10 million to work with. But lets face it. We have more cap space that we can use.

 

Bill Polians Colts are 6-0 ... do you know how much cap space they have??? 0

[Dan]

I appologize for the large lettering, I just want people to see this ... Before we go further lets review the facts:

 

1. The Bills will most likely have near 30 MILLION in FREE CAP SPACE this off-season

 

2.  Contrary to what you may think, all of the quality offensive/defensive lineman will most likely be re-signed by their team BEFORE Free Agency even starts. If not, then thats great! Go for it. But thats just not going to happen.

 

3. The Bills have a history of letting good players because they dont want to pay them or they think they would be overpaid. This led to the cuts of Pat Williams and Antoine Winfield. BLAH! I wish we had them now.

 

4. If the Bills let Clements go into free agency and sign with another team (he will be easy signed according to ESPN), we could sign every draft pick to whatever ammount of money they want, pick up the best FA scrubs, AND bring in some guys from NFL Europe or CFL or whatever and STILL HAVE about 20 MILLION in free cap space.

 

So why not sign Clements his stupid contract, and build around the good player he is intead of taking a crap-shoot with another player. I would understand if we only had about 10 million to work with. But lets face it. We have more cap space that we can use.

 

Bill Polians Colts are 6-0 ... do you know how much cap space they have???  0

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I agree. Bye Bye Nate. You want to much and we can spend our $30mill on better players elsewhere and be a stronger team.

[respk]

Fortunately, some team will over pay for Clements and their fans can have the unfortunate view of him on their team. Clements is gone. Thank goodness.

[daquixers_is_back]

And where do we get these "better players" ?? Thin air?

[Dan]

I say we start breeding them. Because at the rate we're going that might be the quicker way to get a decent O line.

[UConn James]

I appologize for the large lettering, I just want people to see this ... Before we go further lets review the facts:

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I'm not going to apologize for the size I use.... b/c you're just not getting it.

 

It is not a matter of how much cap room we have. It is up to Nate where he goes. We could offer the entire $30M and he would probably STILL go to about 10 other teams for $7M/per before he would come back to Buffalo.

 

EVERY single move that has been made by both sides are the tell-tale signs that Nate has no intention of re-signing with us and our FO knows it.

 

This is like arguing with a brick wall.

[Chilly]

EXACTLY! Thats the point. They WILL be re-signed before free agency starts. Meaning we have 0 chance at even talking to them. Its not possible. Thus their are no quality FA's available.

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Except that is a wrong thing to say. The examples I gave were to show that there were multiple quality o-linemen who WEREN'T resigned by their team last year, despide people who thought that they would be.

[daquixers_is_back]

I'm not going to apologize for the size I use.... b/c you're just not getting it.

 

It is not a matter of how much cap room we have. It is up to Nate where he goes. We could offer the entire $30M and he would probably STILL go to about 10 other teams for $7M/per before he would come back to Buffalo.

 

EVERY single move that has been made by both sides are the tell-tale signs that Nate has no intention of re-signing with us and our FO knows it.

 

This is like arguing with a brick wall.

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Maybe I am too tired to be thinking straight because I didnt know that this was your point the whole time. Sorry.

 

That being said, we were in contract negotiations last year and he said he would like to come back to Buffalo ... but he just wanted to be paid properly.

 

"I leave the contract situation up to my agent and the Bills management. I would love to stay in Buffalo, but at the same time, I want to be rightly compensated for my market value and what I can do out on the field." - Nate Clements

 

Like it or not his market value WILL probably be around 6-7 mill

[Chilly]

Maybe I am too tired to be thinking straight because I didnt know that this was your point the whole time. Sorry.

 

That being said, we were in contract negotiations last year and he said he would like to come back to Buffalo ... but he just wanted to be paid properly.

 

"I leave the contract situation up to my agent and the Bills management. I would love to stay in Buffalo, but at the same time, I want to be rightly compensated for my market value and what I can do out on the field." - Nate Clements

 

Like it or not his market value WILL probably be around 6-7 mill

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If you are trying not to burn bridges, theres no reason to say "GOD THE BILLS SUCK, I'M NOT COMING BACK TO THEM."

 

People don't always tell the truth.

[daquixers_is_back]

Except that is a wrong thing to say.  The examples I gave were to show that there were multiple quality o-linemen who WEREN'T resigned by their team last year, despide people who thought that they would be.

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Many teams dont want to resign players before their contract is almost up because of a few reasons:

 

1. To get a great "contract" year out of them

2. To make sure they get the full value out of them before they award them even more money

3. They are too old (Steussie)

 

Would you like to make a bet that everyone on your list will be re-signed with the exception of the first lineman you made? He may not be.

[daquixers_is_back]

If you are trying not to burn bridges, theres no reason to say "GOD THE BILLS SUCK, I'M NOT COMING BACK TO THEM."

 

People don't always tell the truth.

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So we should assume everyone is lying. Give me a break Clements hater.

 

"We're definitely open for anything," Clements said. "All I can say is that I'm open and that I want to stay in Buffalo and I love Buffalo. If I was running the front office, I would take care of all of my guys."

 

Winfield, is making over 5 mill a year... Ken lucas is making about 6 mill a year ... Anthony Henry is making about 5 mill a year ... I think Clements is AS GOOD or better than these players and he deserves to be paid just as much or more.

[BillsFanForever19]

I don't think Clements has proven that he's worth the kind of money he's going to be looking for after this season.

 

I'd try and see if New England (who has quite the reputation for letting everyone go) will let Asante Samuel sign with someone else after this season. I'd throw more money at him then I would Clements.

 

Clements' only saving grace here might be the fact that McGee is playing TERRIBLE ball and Youboty's family problems set him WAY back.

 

 

P.S. Nate Clements is nowhere's near as good as Antoine Winfield. Never was.

[Chilly]

Many teams dont want to resign players before their contract is almost up because fo a few reasons:

 

1. To get a great "contract" year out of them

2. To make sure they get the full value out of them before they award them even more money

3. They are too old (Steussie)

 

Would you like to make a bet that everyone on your list will be re-signed with the exception of the first lineman you made? He may not be.

813676[/snapback]

 

And many teams also don't resign players because they don't have the money and/or cap space, or if they don't feel the player is worth it.

 

Explain to me why Hutchinson, Bentley, and Verba all hit free agency last year if teams always resign their good offensive linemen? Obviously they would have resigned them if they were that great, according to your logic.

 

So we should assume everyone is lying. Give me a break Clements hater.

 

lol, where did I say that? And where have I said anything about Clements in this entire thread besides his comments?

 

A general rule with sports players is to take everything in contract negotiations that are being said with a large grain of salt. I'm not saying he's lying, but just blindly believing what he's saying isn't exactly a good thing either.

 

Winfield, is making over 5 mill a year...  Ken lucas is making about 6 mill a year ... Anthony Henry is making about 5 mill a year ... I think Clements is AS GOOD or better than these players and he deserves to be paid just as much or more.

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Lucas is a better CB I'd say, better then Mr. Clements. I don't disagree on Henry and Winfield though.

 

I think that a 5 mil contract for Clements is fair, if he'd like to sign here.

[daquixers_is_back]

I don't think Clements has proven that he's worth the kind of money he's going to be looking for after this season.

 

I'd try and see if New England (who has quite the reputation for letting everyone go) will let Asante Samuel sign with someone else after this season. I'd throw more money at him then I would Clements.

 

Clements' only saving grace here might be the fact that McGee is playing TERRIBLE ball and Youboty's family problems set him WAY back.

P.S. Nate Clements is nowhere's near as good as Antoine Winfield. Never was.

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I think stats and most NFL Scouts would disagree with you ... but hey - to each their own opinion.

[daquixers_is_back]

And many teams also don't resign players because they don't have the money and/or cap space, or if they don't feel the player is worth it.

 

Explain to me why Hutchinson, Bentley, and Verba all hit free agency last year if teams always resign their good offensive linemen?  Obviously they would have resigned them if they were that great, according to your logic.

lol, where did I say that?  And where have I said anything about Clements in this entire thread besides his comments?

 

A general rule with sports players is to take everything in contract negotiations that are being said with a large grain of salt.  I'm not saying he's lying, but just blindly believing what he's saying isn't exactly a good thing either.

Lucas is a better CB I'd say, better then Mr. Clements.  I don't disagree on Henry and Winfield though.

 

I think that a 5 mil contract for Clements is fair, if he'd like to sign here.

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Ok well were close ... I think it would be a good deal if we offered him a 5 year deal for 30 million (about 6 million a year) and a 10 mill signing bonus. That is what top 10 CB's are going for these days and I think thats fair.

 

Think about this. The average pay of a top 10 NFL CB in 2002 (4 years ago, and market has risen) was 5.3 MILLION per year. So if we offer him less than 5.3 million we would be saying we consider him a top 20 CB ... come on people. Take off your rose-colored glasses. Nate Clements is a TOP 10 CB ... whether he be #10, or #1, he is still a top 10 CB.

[Dan]

Ok well were close ... I think it would be a good deal if we offered him a  5 year deal for 30 million (about 6 million a year) and a 10 mill signing bonus. That is what top 10 CB's are going for these days and I think thats fair.

 

Think about this. The average pay of a top 10 NFL CB in 2002 (4 years ago, and market has risen) was 5.3 MILLION per year. So if we offer him less than 5.3 million we would be saying we consider him a top 20 CB ... come on people. Take off your rose-colored glasses. Nate Clements is a TOP 10 CB ... whether he be #10, or #1, he is still a top 10 CB.

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If the average was $5.3mill, then by definition, some make less and some make more than that. Therefore, the #10 probably makes a fair amount less than 5.3mill. Hence, if NC is offered less than that, its not saying he's top 20; its saying he's in the bottom of the top 10.

 

I, personally, think the 6 mill with 30 guaranteed as you suggest would be horribly overpaying for an average corner. In a contract year, such as this, he's arguably playing as well as he ever will. And his play for the last 1.5 years has been a touch above average.

[daquixers_is_back]

If the average was $5.3mill, then by definition, some make less and some make more than that.  Therefore, the #10 probably makes a fair amount less than 5.3mill.  Hence, if NC is offered less than that, its not saying he's top 20; its saying he's in the bottom of the top 10.

 

I, personally, think the 6 mill with 30 guaranteed as you suggest would be horribly overpaying for an average corner.  In a contract year, such as this, he's arguably playing as well as he ever will.  And his play for the last 1.5 years has been a touch above average.

813714[/snapback]

 

When you have the money ...

[Dan]

When you have the money ...

813715[/snapback]

... you get a good offensive line.

[daquixers_is_back]

... you get a good offensive line.

813716[/snapback]

 

From where? Do you plan that they build them in the basements of the stadium?

[Dan]

From where? Do you plan that they build them in the basements of the stadium?

813719[/snapback]

Why is the rest of the league can somehow magically find offensive linemen, but it's impossible for us to find them?

[daquixers_is_back]

Why is the rest of the league can somehow magically find offensive linemen, but it's impossible for us to find them?

813720[/snapback]

 

Much of the league either:

 

1. Drafts them

2. Picks up the players Buffalo doesnt want to pay such as Pat Williams or Antoine Winfield and next to be Nate Clements

 

Most of the time their are a few good players in the free agency pool and teams bid HIGH to get them.

[Dan]

Hence, I say spend the money on a lineman ... not on a CB.

[daquixers_is_back]

Hence, I say spend the money on a lineman ... not on a CB.

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Do me a favor. Go find the list of FA lineman (i already did) and see how many have a chance of NOT being re-signed by their team. You will come out to a number of about 1 good OL and 1 good DL. We could pick up BOTH of those players, daft all the players, pay them, pay nate what he wants and still have 10 mill left over.

[Dan]

Do me a favor. Go find the list of FA lineman (i already did) and see how many have a chance of NOT being re-signed by their team. You will come out to a number of about 1 good OL and 1 good DL. We could pick up BOTH of those players, daft all the players, pay them, pay nate what he wants and still have 10 mill left over.

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I reject the notion that all good players will be re-signed and none available. However, if all good players are indeed signed and we cannot secure top draft picks; then by all means, I agree, lets give it all to Nate.

[daquixers_is_back]

I reject the notion that all good players will be re-signed and none available.  However, if all good players are indeed signed and we cannot secure top draft picks; then by all means, I agree, lets give it all to Nate.

813727[/snapback]

Well go and take a look for yourself man. MOST good lineman are re-signed. Some do escape because of teams salary cap ... etc. But when that happens their are 30 other teams trying to get that 1 player.

[Dan]

Well go and take a look for yourself man. MOST good lineman are re-signed. Some do escape because of teams salary cap ... etc. But when that happens their are 30 other teams trying to get that 1 player.

813728[/snapback]

No way I could have the patience to look all that up. All I'm saying is that if there's one, only one, top tier linemen available; we need to make sure we get him. Because not getting a good offensive line in this team has reached the point of absurdity.

 

By the way, I really do agree with you that we should keep Nate if possible. I just really don't think we should over pay for him. We have alot of holes on this team. And I know that Nate leaving potentially creates another one, but there are far greater ones, even if Nate is gone.

[daquixers_is_back]

No way I could have the patience to look all that up.  All I'm saying is that if there's one, only one, top tier linemen available; we need to make sure we get him.  Because not getting a good offensive line in this team has reached the point of absurdity. 

 

By the way, I really do agree with you that we should keep Nate if possible.  I just really don't think we should over pay for him.  We have alot of holes on this team.  And I know that Nate leaving potentially creates another one, but there are far greater ones, even if Nate is gone.

813729[/snapback]

 

I totally agree with that. Heck, if their were 3 good offensive lineman on the market in free agency I would say CYA NATE! and give those lineman whatever they wanted to get them here.

[Orton's Arm]

I agree that Clements should have been re-signed for all of the reasons listed above.  One additional reason:  the Bills have so many holes and it would suck if they have to draft a cb in the early rounds to replace Clements.  That would mean one less draft pick for the oline or the dline.

812877[/snapback]

I'm sure Bill from NYC would absolutely love it if the Bills used their first round pick to take a CB.

 

On a more serious note, I think that's the last thing this team should do. Whether the Bills re-sign Nate, or sign some other free agent, we shouldn't use a first or second round pick on a CB. Doing so would merely continue a long Bills' tradition of drafting a guy in the first round, having him stay here four years or so, letting him leave in free agency, and using a first round pick once again on his replacement. Antoine Winfield, Thomas Smith, the list goes on.

 

The problem the Bills face in signing any free agent--whether it be Clements or a FA from another team--is that players with options don't want to come here. The team is lousy, a lot of people don't like the weather, the city has a reputation for being less exciting than, say, Miami. Add to that the fact that many players scheduled to become free agents will get extensions from their current teams, and it's tough.

 

So the Bills should add quality free agents wherever possible, realizing that we shouldn't expect too much. But if a position requires continuity, such as at QB or the offensive line, the Bills should restrict themselves to young free agents. The last thing this team needs is another Chris Villarrial.

[Dan]

I knew we agreed with each other. Tomorrow, we find new coaches.

[daquixers_is_back]

The problem the Bills face in signing any free agent--whether it be Clements or a FA from another team--is that players with options don't want to come here. The team is lousy, a lot of people don't like the weather, the city has a reputation for being less exciting than, say, Miami. Add to that the fact that many players scheduled to become free agents will get extensions from their current teams, and it's tough.

 

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BINGO! Thus why not pay Clements? We have the cap space. Get it done and build around him. He will be happy to have the money and hopefully play even better.