I would rather have JP than Pennington

[Kelly the Dog]

And to think that you accuse me of not reading your posts.

 

Your problem is that you talk out of both sides of your mouth.  Somehow you manage to rip into me anytime that I criticize Losman, and yet you always have some half-hearted criticism of Losman of your own to trot out anytime someone tries to pin down your opinion.  Your infatuation with Losman and his arm-strenght is long-standing position of yours on this board.  You have consistently posted that you love Losman's arm strength, and that therfore the Bills just need to force-feed Losman experience to see if he gets better.  This is in contrast to my position that we should play a QB who exhibits better decision-making, rather than a QB who simply exhibits the cannon arm.  (For the record, the QB the Bills should be playing, IMHO, is Losman.)  Because you downplay decision-making relative to arm strength, you also play down the evidence from Losman's growing body of work (12 games now and in his third season) and try to pretend that he is a complete unknown.  Of course, Chad Pennington looked pretty good after 12 games - and it didn't take the supposedly noodle-armed Pennington 12 games to throw for 300+ yards.)

 

In any event, what, we are going to define Chad Pennington's career as a QB solely on the basis of whether or not he plays in a Super Bowl?    Would you accept that benchmark for JP Losman, let alone accept that bet????  I think that Chad Pennington has been and will continue to be a very successful NFL QB, and I'm not about to define any QB"s career by getting to a Super Bowl.

 

JDG

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First of all, I have never mentioned Losman's arm strength in any post today. It has only a small part to play in my position. And since I never mentioned it, I am not sure why you have. Adequate arm strength is something 90-95% of the quarterbacks in the league have. A strong arm is not important to being a good or great quarterback. Adequate arm strength is plenty.

 

I don't read your posts? I was basically blasting Losman in my post. I said he lost the game. I said Pennington won the game. I said Pennington was a far better quarterback. I later said Bledsoe was a better quarterback. I never said anything about how great Losman was because I don't think he is great. The fact that I said I would rather have a potential winner than a guy I think will never win is the only remotely positive thing i said about Losman. And I actually said he may never do it but didn't say or imply that he will. Talk about not reading one's posts.

 

The object of the game in the NFL is to win the Super Bowl. That is the goal. The goal is not mediocrity. The goal is not to come in second place. The goal is not to have a great QB rating. The Bills got rid of Bledsoe for the same reason that the Patriots got rid of Bledsoe, because they felt that he could only take you so far. I believe in that theory. And I think that Pennington can only take you so far. We don't know at ALL if Losman can take a team as far as Pennington can. But IMO Pennington has a built-in ceiling. That is why I think Losman is a better chance. That is not saying he is better. That is not saying he will win you more games. That is ONLY saying he has a chance to win it all, which is the object of the game. I don't think Pennington has a chance. Hence, he is a tease. And he will always disappoint in the end.

[JDG]

First of all, I have never mentioned Losman's arm strength in any post today. It has only a small part to play in my position. And since I never mentioned it, I am not sure why you have.

 

You've been discussing Losman for far longer than today.

 

I don't read your posts? I was basically blasting Losman in my post.

 

This is what I mean by talking out of both sides of your mouth. You are the only person who could describe a post stating your preference for Losman (who has never done anything) over Pennington (who has done some things) as "basically blasting Losman."

 

The fact that I said I would rather have a potential winner than a guy I think will never win is the only remotely positive thing i said about Losman. And I actually said he may never do it but didn't say or imply that he will.

 

And here's where you complete the Texas two-step. You prefer Losman because he "may" win a Conference Championship, but you lay down a $1000 bet on whether Pennington *will* win a Conference Championship - the rest of his team disregarded apparently.

 

So, is Joey Harrington a potential winner too in your book?

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

I cannot help you or it if you cannot think two thoughts at once.

 

I cannot help you if you cannot understand the concept that I think Pennington played a very good game, a better game, is great at one thing, and is a better player now than Losman, and yet I still would rather have Losman because he may not have a built in ceiling and Pennington does.

 

I cannot help you or it if you cannot understand the simple concept that Pennington's lack of arm strength and mobility hinders him and has zero to do with Losman's arm strength, which I didn't refer to at all. For example, I think a QB can win in this league with Craig Nall's arm strength, although it is not great. I don't think a QB can win in this league with Chad Pennington's arm strenth. With the POSSIBLE exception of also having a great defense, a great running attack and great coaching.

 

I cannot help you or it if you cannot understand the ridiculously simple concept that thinking one player has no chance of getting you your desired result automatically makes a player who does have a chance of getting you your desired result a more desirable player.

[JDG]

I cannot help you or it if you cannot understand the ridiculously simple concept that thinking one player has no chance of getting you your desired result automatically makes a player who does have a chance of getting you your desired result a more desirable player.

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And Chad Pennington has no chance to win a Super Bowl because in just *two-and-a-half* healthy seasons as a starter all he has done is win a division title and a wild card berth while playing the same division as a dynasty, beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs 41-0, win a road playoff game in San Diego, and take the Steelers to overtime in the playoffs in Pittsburgh.

 

Oh yeah, but he has *NO* chance to get to a Super Bowl because even though he plays twice as smart as JP Losman, he doesn't have JP Losman's cannon arm and mobility. To me, this is a classic case of infatuation with physical tools, while downplaying a QB's single-most important tool - his brain, and completely missing the most important thing - the results on the field.

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

And Chad Pennington has no chance to win a Super Bowl because in just *two-and-a-half* healthy seasons as a starter all he has done is win a division title and a wild card berth while playing the same division as a dynasty, beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs 41-0, win a road playoff game in San Diego, and take the Steelers to overtime in the playoffs in Pittsburgh.

 

Oh yeah, but he has *NO* chance to get to a Super Bowl because even though he plays twice as smart as JP Losman, he doesn't have JP Losman's cannon arm and mobility.  To me, this is a classic case of infatuation with physical tools, while downplaying a QB's single-most important tool - his brain, and completely missing the most important thing - the results on the field.

 

JDG

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One of the reasons he will never win IMO is because of his lack of mobility and he gets hurt because of it. His arm is not strong and when he gets hit a lot it is less strong. This is his seventh year not his third and a half. In fact, his fragility is one of the major reasons why i would rather have JP than CP. Some players, like, say, Jim McMahon, are tough and get hurt a lot. Some players, like, say, Mike Williams and Jonas jennings, are frail and get hurt a lot. I think Pennington gets hurt a lot and is fragile.

 

It's okay for you to feel different. It's okay that you think Pennington gives you a better chance to win the SB than Losman. It's what called "an opinion".

 

I will bet you right now, however. $1000. You in?

[syhuang]

I don't know any NFL coach that would continue to start a QB who had just passed for 113, 75, and 75 yards on three consecutive weeks while completing less than 47% of his passes in each.

 

JDG

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For the record, JP's performance you mentioned was early last season (week 2 to week 4), it can not be used to rationalize why meathead benched Losman late last season, when Losman had recovered from injury and Bills were clearly out of playoff race.

[BillsWingsNBeer]

Guys,

 

JP just sucked today (2 turnovers on his shoulders; that third was McGahee's fault- nice block Willis you kitty).

Let's not get paralasys fron analysis here. The reason we lost today was not the Jets, it was JP's poor play and bad play calling.

 

Oh...and the pass rush stayed in bed today, too. That hurt us.

[JDG]

I will bet you right now, however. $1000. You in?

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And if I say that JP Losman will never develop the mental decision-making necessary to win a Super Bowl, and offer you $1000 that the Bills never win a Super Bowl with JP Losman, are you in?

 

JDG

[Kelly the Dog]

And if I say that JP Losman will never develop the mental decision-making necessary to win a Super Bowl, and offer you $1000 that the Bills never win a Super Bowl with JP Losman, are you in?

 

JDG

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There is too big of a difference between going to the Bowl and winning it. The Bills have never won it in 46 years. That is hardly a fair bet. I said that JP has a chance to go and IMO Pennington does not. So the bet is as long as Pennington is in the league, I bet Losman gets there first. Of course, it is not just the QB that gets a team into the SB but surely a QB can prevent a team from going.

[BuffOrange]

Guys,

 

JP just sucked today (2 turnovers on his shoulders;  that third was McGahee's fault- nice block Willis you kitty). 

Let's not get paralasys fron analysis here.  The reason we lost today was not the Jets, it was JP's poor play and bad play calling. 

 

Oh...and the pass rush stayed in bed today, too.  That hurt us.

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Short and accurate. You should average more than one post per 6 months.

[Kelly the Dog]

Short and accurate.  You should average more than one post per 6 months.

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So he get no credit for two touchdowns, 20 points on the board (with no turnovers that gave him good field position), 320+ yards passing in a hellish wind, and a high percentage and a high QB rating, but he gets full blame for three TOs, which led to a total of seven points. I get it.

[dave mcbride]

First, let me preface this by saying that Chad Pennington was the reason I thought the jets won, and JP was likely the reason the Bills lost. I also think that Pennington has outplayed Losman in each of the three games so far this year. But it doesn't matter. I used to think Drew was the biggest tease in the NFL but Pennington is even worse.

 

CP is absoluteky great at what he did today. Perhaps the best in the league. Right up there with Brady. But I will bet anyone here right now that pennington will never even make it to a Super Bowl let alone win one in his entire career. He is great at one thing. IF he has great coaching and great defense and great special teams and great luck, sure it's possible that he could win. But if you take away the one thing he does great, he will never win. And that's why if I were a GM I would take Losman over Pennington. At least with Losman you have a chance. IMO, with Pennington you have a good chance to win games like this. You have little to no chance at winning it all.

 

He simply cannot beat you except in games like this. That's why I think the Bills were thoroughly outcoached in this game. You have to find a way to not let him beat you the only way he can beat you. Sure, it's difficult, and you cannot do it every time. But we let him do the only thing he can can do and we lost because of it.

 

Losman may prove to be a far worse QB than Pennington. That is completely up in the air right now. But I know or I am convinced that you cannot win with Pennington. He's the biggest tease in the league. I would much prefer, say, Brad Johnson than Chad Pennington. And right now I would taker Losman over him, too. The Jets are goig nowhere with him, regardless of how absolutely fantastic he is at the short game.

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dog, once the bills have a winning season - much less a playoff victory - come and talk to me. it was a big step up for losman today in many respects, but that was damn near perfect qbing from pennington today, who has been great in all three games so far. losman made some killer mistakes, and I'm not including the INT when i say this. basically, pennington has proven to be really, really good this year. re "not winning with pennington", well, you may want to hold off for a couple of years with that prognostication. when he's started, they've won. when he hasn't, they've lost. one last thing -- knock pennington about the past all you want, but players have been known to improve. also, remember that brad johnson, an inferior player to pennington, played on a team that won a super bowl (note that i refuse to credit a qb with "winning" a SB) after about 8 years in the league.

[Kelly the Dog]

dog, once the bills have a winning season - much less a playoff victory - come and talk to me. it was a big step up for losman today in many respects, but that was damn near perfect qbing from pennington today, who has been great in all three games so far.  losman made some killer mistakes, and I'm not including the INT when i say this. basically, pennington has proven to be really, really good this year. re "not winning with pennington", well, you may want to hold off for a couple of years with that prognostication. when he's started, they've won. when he hasn't, they've lost. one last thing -- knock pennington about the past all you want, but players have been known to improve. also, remember that brad johnson, an inferior player to pennington, played on a team that won a super bowl (note that i refuse to credit a qb with "winning" a SB).

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I think Brad Johnson is a lot better than Pennington. And I am not discounting pennington, I think he can lead a team to an 11-5 record. I don't think he can lead a team to a SB. I think the same thing about Bledsoe.

[Trip]

The offense is starting to grow up. Losman showed today that he has the ability and decision making to develop into an elite QB.

 

The turnovers happened, and they were the reason we lost, but turnovers can and will be eliminated. One flutter ball, and two blind side sacks... He'll learn to get rid of the ball, an NFL blitz gets there a little quicker than playing at Tulane, but you can't teach a QB to fire the ball through wind like that.

 

I'll take 475 yards of offense every game.

 

To say Losman SUCKED today is pretty ridiculous.

[dave mcbride]

I think Brad Johnson is a lot better than Pennington. And I am not discounting pennington, I think he can lead a team to an 11-5 record. I don't think he can lead a team to a SB. I think the same thing about Bledsoe.

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i edited my post - see above.

[Chilly]

Short and accurate.  You should average more than one post per 6 months.

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rofl. JP sucked today? Uh, no.

 

JP had a decent day today. He made some bad decisions and some good decisions.

 

If you want a game where JP actually sucked, there are a good number of them, but this was not one of them.

[BillsWingsNBeer]

dog, once the bills have a winning season - much less a playoff victory - come and talk to me. it was a big step up for losman today in many respects, but that was damn near perfect qbing from pennington today, who has been great in all three games so far.  losman made some killer mistakes, and I'm not including the INT when i say this. basically, pennington has proven to be really, really good this year. re "not winning with pennington", well, you may want to hold off for a couple of years with that prognostication. when he's started, they've won. when he hasn't, they've lost. one last thing -- knock pennington about the past all you want, but players have been known to improve. also, remember that brad johnson, an inferior player to pennington, played on a team that won a super bowl (note that i refuse to credit a qb with "winning" a SB) after about 8 years in the league.

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[dave mcbride]

i edited my post - see above.

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p.s. johnson sure gets a helluva lot of credit for playing qb on a team that had one of the best defenses of the past 15 years ...

[Kelly the Dog]

p.s. johnson sure gets a helluva lot of credit for playing qb on a team that had one of the best defenses of the past 15 years ...

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I think Brad Johnson has always been good, almost every year, any team, regardless of stats. Just watching him play. I think Johnson is a very good quarterback and has been for 10 years.

[BuffOrange]

So he get no credit for two touchdowns, 20 points on the board (with no turnovers that gave him good field position), 320+ yards passing in a hellish wind, and a high percentage and a high QB rating, but he gets full blame for three TOs, which led to a total of seven points. I get it.

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Well, that's a 13 point net at home against a lousy defense aided by a strong running game. I give him some credit for the 1st TD, though its one every starting QB should make. The 2nd TD was borderline garbage against a prevent D and it was followed up by the worst clutch series ever which was clearly 100% his fault. I thought some of his most impressive plays resulted in incompletions: such as the deep ball to Price that preceeded the fake FG, and a step-up in the pocket + throw to Evans in the endzone, which was overthrown a bit.