SlamnSam Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Among the reasons for the particular focus on NFL coaching candidates of A-A descent are: 1. A signficant majority of the players are of A-A descent. In order to keep producing a good product the NFL is interested in creating a career path for players which will allow them to move from being a player to obtain the highest on field position on a team (HC). Having a focus on meeting some statistical standard for the population would not meet this goal. Those who are "slaves" to the statistics which underlie quotas would endorse your interest in the NFL meeting some statistical measure related to the population. However, our society explicitly rejects quota systems and are more interested in a system like the NFL's which guarantee's opportunity by demanding interviews. The focus in not on some bizarre and arbitraty principle like societal quotas, the focus is on the reality of employee management and producing a good product. 2. There is a pretty clear history of racist practices by the NFL targeted on qualified people of A-A descent. Until the late 80s, the NFL refused to have qualified people of A-A descent as QBs (except the occaisional Marlin Briscoe) due in great part to the groundbreaking work of folks like James Harris and accomplishments of Doug Williams and the press beatings received by idiots such as Jimmy the greek and Al Campanis, this travesty against the qualified did not stand. With 10 years time A-As are reoutinely QBs. The next frontier is HC positions. The NFL minority interview policy is designed to address a past history which most folks clearly agree is one of past discriminatory practices where qualified people of A-A descent were denied even a shot at an HC position. Thus, though a fellow like Norm Chow is clearly a racial minority in our society, his hiring does not meet the NFL Rooney Rule because there is not the same history of discrimination against Chow's racial background by the NFL as there was against the numerous qualified people of A-A descent. 575525[/snapback] Oh because there are a lot of black players therefore all the coaches should be black? My race is considered white, but should I call myself a European American? Please stop with this minority thing, call it what it really is, hire a black coach because "whatever lame excuse you can come up with insert here". I hope we just plain hire someone who cares about winning, and not weather our QB is white or running back is black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I couldn't agree more. It is amazing to me that people actually think that fans, players, or owners would rather have an inferior coach and thus a worse team than hire a coach who happens to be black. (I assume that these are the same people that insist 9-11 was a big government conspiracy). I'm sure that somewhere in the south today, a black guy is not getting a job at some factory because the manager is a racist POS. But to assume that mentality extends to everyone involved in pro football coaching (and everywhere else) is just crazy IMO. If people are so convinced that racism is SO prevalent that a black person can rarely be considered for a job he/she is qualified for, doesn't that stand to reason that the vast majority of people are in fact racist? (Surely it can't be a handful of racists who just happen to be doing all the hiring, can it?) So does that mean that people who believe this consider the majority of their friends, family and acquaintances to be racists? If that's really the state of our country, it can't all be on the other guy, right? Sorry, but I'm not buying it. 575539[/snapback] It strikes me as a mistake to require that Marge Schott like Nazi paraphenalia be found in the home of an NFL owner BEFORE they NFL takes any actions to reverse a pretty clear history of race based discrimination. The clear history of race based discrimination in the NFL is seen in the virtually total lack of QBs of A-A descent until the late 80s (and really the 90s until there was more equal opportunity and it became routine to see an A-A QB). Do you or does anyone else think this real world occurence was not race-based? Another piece of evidence which is pretty clear to many folks is that though the majority of NFL players are of A-A descent and former players make up a significant part of the pool of qualified HC candidates, even with the Rooney Rule only 20% of NFL HCs are of A-A descent. I and others feel that race based discrimination in hiring and employment by the NFL explains this statistical outcome. If you have some other explanation I'm all eyes so please make a case to explain this real world effect. It being a random outcome seems far-fetched statistically given the racial history of this society and how quickly things turned around once the color line was broken over time with the early episodic achievements of Marlin Briscoe, James Harris and Doug Williams. The effect being based in folks looking mostly to win seems not likely in that there are clear examples of even the Rooney Rule being flaunted by Matt Millen and then him having to can the good old boy he hired because Detroit continued to rack up Ls under Mooch. It stikes me as legitimate that the American government would need proof (like Marge Schott and her prized collection of Nazi parapenalia before it would be justified in denying a citizen of rights. A govrnment denial of right is NOT even justified in this case because though Marge Schott is an idiot she broke no law. However, I think it is quite reasonable for a private business like the NFL to agree to a policy like the Rooney Rule to create opportunity where the NFL has historincally denied it due to an issue like race. Folks who think the Rooney Rule and approach is dumb certainly have a right to think that. However, if they also choose to intelligently justify this thought, I think they need to: 1. Describe how if race-based practices were not a signicant part of the reason behind people of A-A descent not being employed as QBs until quite recently and the statistical difference in total # of people of A-A descent as HCs v. the hiring pool of qualified individuals what is (are) the significant reasons. 2. Is it OK to merely accept the current numbers of A-A HC hires as is with no action or are their reasonable affirmative actions that the NFL should take? (In my view the Rooney Rule of mandating at least on A-A interview and the all important policy of A-A coching internships and other activities designed to feed the pipeline are very good affirmative actions which are far better than the stupid mechanistic embrace of quotas. The NFL clearly recently engaged in racist employment practices (A-A QBs) and still has a current race-based disparity in HC hiring versus the pool of qualified candidates. An affirmative action to stop these un-American activities is clearly mandated and I am proud of the NFL (which unfortunately has a history of messing up simple things like coin flips) for enbracing the American way using tools like the Rooney rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonz Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 It strikes me as a mistake to require that Marge Schott like Nazi paraphenalia be found in the home of an NFL owner BEFORE they NFL takes any actions to reverse a pretty clear history of race based discrimination. The clear history of race based discrimination in the NFL is seen in the virtually total lack of QBs of A-A descent until the late 80s (and really the 90s until there was more equal opportunity and it became routine to see an A-A QB). Do you or does anyone else think this real world occurence was not race-based? Another piece of evidence which is pretty clear to many folks is that though the majority of NFL players are of A-A descent and former players make up a significant part of the pool of qualified HC candidates, even with the Rooney Rule only 20% of NFL HCs are of A-A descent. I and others feel that race based discrimination in hiring and employment by the NFL explains this statistical outcome. If you have some other explanation I'm all eyes so please make a case to explain this real world effect. It being a random outcome seems far-fetched statistically given the racial history of this society and how quickly things turned around once the color line was broken over time with the early episodic achievements of Marlin Briscoe, James Harris and Doug Williams. The effect being based in folks looking mostly to win seems not likely in that there are clear examples of even the Rooney Rule being flaunted by Matt Millen and then him having to can the good old boy he hired because Detroit continued to rack up Ls under Mooch. It stikes me as legitimate that the American government would need proof (like Marge Schott and her prized collection of Nazi parapenalia before it would be justified in denying a citizen of rights. A govrnment denial of right is NOT even justified in this case because though Marge Schott is an idiot she broke no law. However, I think it is quite reasonable for a private business like the NFL to agree to a policy like the Rooney Rule to create opportunity where the NFL has historincally denied it due to an issue like race. Folks who think the Rooney Rule and approach is dumb certainly have a right to think that. However, if they also choose to intelligently justify this thought, I think they need to: 1. Describe how if race-based practices were not a signicant part of the reason behind people of A-A descent not being employed as QBs until quite recently and the statistical difference in total # of people of A-A descent as HCs v. the hiring pool of qualified individuals what is (are) the significant reasons. 2. Is it OK to merely accept the current numbers of A-A HC hires as is with no action or are their reasonable affirmative actions that the NFL should take? (In my view the Rooney Rule of mandating at least on A-A interview and the all important policy of A-A coching internships and other activities designed to feed the pipeline are very good affirmative actions which are far better than the stupid mechanistic embrace of quotas. The NFL clearly recently engaged in racist employment practices (A-A QBs) and still has a current race-based disparity in HC hiring versus the pool of qualified candidates. An affirmative action to stop these un-American activities is clearly mandated and I am proud of the NFL (which unfortunately has a history of messing up simple things like coin flips) for enbracing the American way using tools like the Rooney rule. 575613[/snapback] I'd give FFS three seconds before he reversed his love of affirmative action if HE was passed over for a promotion or job because of it. THREE SECONDS. And sorry, FFS...quotas, counting statistics and looking at color to determine job eligibility is NOT the American Way. Thats what we strive to do away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Oh because there are a lot of black players therefore all the coaches should be black? My race is considered white, but should I call myself a European American? Please stop with this minority thing, call it what it really is, hire a black coach because "whatever lame excuse you can come up with insert here". I hope we just plain hire someone who cares about winning, and not weather our QB is white or running back is black. 575585[/snapback] No. Flat-out. There need not and I think should noty be a requirement that the number of HCs of A-A descent match the number of players of A-A descent. However, I also stronly believe that there should be opportunity where each individual is measured by the stength of his skills and character (Do you disagree?). The NFL has a pretty clear history of recent actions and current results where instead of equal opportunity based on skils they engaged in hiring and employment practices based on racial descent. Do you disagree that until the late 80s at best and actually the early 90s that the NFL refused to employ people of A-A descent as QBs? Do you disagree that a significant part of the hiring pool for HCs is made up of former NFL players and since a stromg majority of NFL players are of A-A descent then the pool of potentially qualified candidates would logically include a significant number of people of A-A descent? The Rooney Rule to me is a great move that mandates and encourages equal opportunity without a stupid embrace of an enforced hiring quota which in itself would deny opportunity to qualified applicants. Though I flat out diagree with a quota which would mandate that the racial background of HCs match the racial background of players, do you see that this is different from seeing that as the number of A-A HCs goes up it actually reflects the equalizing of opportunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Outside of Norm Chow, I don't think there are even enough Asain-Americans to make the HCs look like America. 575578[/snapback] Perhaps there are no asian HC's because no one knows how to run a frea-fricker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlamnSam Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 No. Flat-out. There need not and I think should noty be a requirement that the number of HCs of A-A descent match the number of players of A-A descent. However, I also stronly believe that there should be opportunity where each individual is measured by the stength of his skills and character (Do you disagree?). The NFL has a pretty clear history of recent actions and current results where instead of equal opportunity based on skils they engaged in hiring and employment practices based on racial descent. Do you disagree that until the late 80s at best and actually the early 90s that the NFL refused to employ people of A-A descent as QBs? Do you disagree that a significant part of the hiring pool for HCs is made up of former NFL players and since a stromg majority of NFL players are of A-A descent then the pool of potentially qualified candidates would logically include a significant number of people of A-A descent? The Rooney Rule to me is a great move that mandates and encourages equal opportunity without a stupid embrace of an enforced hiring quota which in itself would deny opportunity to qualified applicants. Though I flat out diagree with a quota which would mandate that the racial background of HCs match the racial background of players, do you see that this is different from seeing that as the number of A-A HCs goes up it actually reflects the equalizing of opportunity? 575632[/snapback] Nope, your whole arguement supports the idea that race should be a factor in hiring. It should not be. Hire somene who knows and cares about what they are doing. The whole rooney thing is just plain wrong. I am not a minority yet, and have been passed over for many jobs in my comapnay becaue they did not have their quota for minorities. When I do become a minority, which should be in a few years, will I get to play the race card then? Will I ask why there are so few white minority coaches in the league? Chances are I wont have to, because race shouldnt matter and the person who is the best at that position will win out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Perhaps there are no asian HC's because no one knows how to run a frea-fricker? 575645[/snapback] Yeah, guys, this isn't 1972. Racism doesn't exist anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Do people seriously think that if the Bills hired a black coach that people would complain based on color??? HUH??????? People here in WNY want a winner, plain and simple. If they are pink, purple, black, brown, white, green..IT DOESN'T MATTER. This isn't 1972 ok? GET OVER IT. Oh, and as a white guy I would like to see a quota on RUNNING BACKS 575510[/snapback] I definitely agree with this statement, as long as he is winning. However the minute we start losing, the personal attacks will fly. This is evidence by our last couple of coaches. I worry that these attacks will cross over to criticism about his skin color. Buffalo is a great place but it has it's problems with race at times. All in all, hire the best coach (Sherman) and make sure the interviews and process is the same for ever candidate. That's all anyone can ask for. Oh definitely need more white rbs and cbs and black punters. RIP Reggie Roby. I know he played for Miami but he wore a watch when he played. How cool is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I definitely agree with this statement, as long as he is winning. However the minute we start losing, the personal attacks will fly. This is evidence by our last couple of coaches. I worry that these attacks will cross over to criticism about his skin color. Buffalo is a great place but it has it's problems with race at times. All in all, hire the best coach (Sherman) and make sure the interviews and process is the same for ever candidate. That's all anyone can ask for. Oh definitely need more white rbs and cbs and black punters. RIP Reggie Roby. I know he played for Miami but he wore a watch when he played. How cool is that. 575674[/snapback] Hate to say it, but weve gotten on players and coaches for their hair color, headwear, the way they walk, the way they speak, their choice of off season hobbies, where they live and everything in between. You think at some point skin color wouldnt come into play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 The clear history of race based discrimination in the NFL is seen in the virtually total lack of QBs of A-A descent until the late 80s (and really the 90s until there was more equal opportunity and it became routine to see an A-A QB). Do you or does anyone else think this real world occurence was not race-based? Clear history of race based discrimination?? Says who?? How many EEOC lawsuits has the NFL been found guilty in? Your inane need to repeat that assertion as many times as possible in each of your posts doesn't make it fact. The relatively small number of black QBs in past decades resulted from two major factors: 1) There was a much, much smaller pool of black QBs for the NFL to choose from in the past. Go back and compare the number of starting black QBs at the college level in the '60s v. today. Was that due to racist polices at the HS level or at the college admissions level? I don't know, but that isn't the fault of the NFL. 2) The style of football that was accepted in earlier decades placed minimal value on the "athletic" QB, which obviously played against the strength of many of the black QBs in the league today. Just like the nickel defense and the shotgun, strategies have evolved over time that took advantage of different skill sets of players. How else do you explain the fact that the league now has numerous black QBs? Did this happen because there was a "Rooney Rule" that forced each team to give a try out to at least one black QB? Of course not. And in the same way, no one is getting a job based on token interviews. Good, experienced coaches get jobs. But the bottom line, as always, is money. Look at the impact that winning has on a pro franchise. Compare the market value of the Bills to the Patriots in 2000 and again in 2005. Bob Kraft is laughing all the way to the bank as the Pats value has skyrocketed to over $1B (only the Cowboys, Redskins and ManU are worth more). And you're telling me that a pro football owner is going to risk the value of his asset worth hundreds of millions of dollars because he doesn't want his head coach to be black??? Sorry, but I'm not buying that for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Soooo....we're not hiring black coaches for their own good? Actually if race is going to come into it, it would have come into it for the black coaches presently coaching. If it does...its something to be dealt with, not something to preclude their entry into the coaching ranks. I'm in agreement that buffalo fans can and almost always are hard on a coach who loses. The comments about Wade, Williams and Mularkey have not been very nice when we lose...and if a black coache were here and losing I suspect he (or she!!) would not be immune from sharp criticism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Yeah, guys, this isn't 1972. Racism doesn't exist anymore! 575671[/snapback] yup, i make an amusing comment, here comes the politically correct brigade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 There was a much, much smaller pool of black QBs for the NFL to choose from in the past. Go back and compare the number of starting black QBs at the college level in the '60s v. today. Was that due to racist polices at the HS level or at the college admissions level? I don't know, but that isn't the fault of the NFL. 575691[/snapback] I imagine it will be like that for black and minority coaches as well. In ten to fifteen years there will be more black coaches and a bigger pool to select from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Actually, I think the NFL IS in fact making progress, but a lot of that progress is because of the pressure against the old boy network. The Rooney rule is one big part of that. Take James Lofton for instance. He is much more likely to get serious consideration for an OC position based on his success as a receivers coach and his visibility as an interviewee. I see it in business and education all the time. This guy takes care of a friend, recommends a friend's kid. The friend is in his club, and there aren't a lot of black guys in the club. This is life, but enough of it occurs to effectively shut out many deserving folks who aren't in the club. Affirmative action begins to address the inequity (institutional racism is a term that comes to mind, but I don't hink I'll use it as it gets a certain type of folk enraged.). I can't believe someone could seriously say that the idea of Art Shell with a winning record, playoff success and a hall of fame credential makes them laugh while we are interviewing Dom Capers. 575331[/snapback] First, it seems like you're equating "progress" with the idea of increasing the number of blacks by decreasing the number of whites. I take issue with that. The real definition of progress is a system in which people are hired strictly based on merit. Second, you point to affirmative action as a way of dealing with the injustices of the old boy network. I vehemently disagree. Let's say there's a company with ten openings. Nine of them are allocated to white people with good connections. The tenth hasn't yet been spoken for. So along comes an affirmative action program, which states that one new hire out of ten must be a minority. You know the nine connected people aren't being squeezed out, so that leaves the white guy trying to get in on merit to give up his place. This problem has made it all but impossible for a non-connected white or Asian male to get into an Ivy League school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Can we please stop putting Art Shell on these lists...the guy was a BAD NFL coach and he hasnt coached since JP Losman was in elementary school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 What the political left is attempting to use is the "Sliding Quota" standard, arguing that since almost 90% of NFL players are black, then 90% of all coaches, owners, and ball boys must be black or it is racism. That Sliding Quota standard is, by itself, viciously racist to the core.The "problem" area, if you can call it that, is the NCAA, where black Div 1a coaches are way underrepresented. That's the "farm team" for being an NFL head coach. Ironically enough, a lot of the noise about racism comes from precisely that source, the NCAA, home of leftist through Stalinst brands of ideology. One mentions the idea that this type of whining helps to "keep racism alive." That is exactly what the desired outcome is. If racism is not "kept alive," then tens of thousands of professional race baiters would lose their "jobs"... and hence the NCAA remains totally left wing, absolutely hypocritical to the core on the issue of black head coaches, and the professional race baiters, on cue, blame the "rich white" NFL owners... and thank their leftist pals in the NCAA for "keeping racism alive" and hence the honey keeps flowing... 575346[/snapback] You are spot-on with this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1gap2gap Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Okay I'm done with you as you obviously can't read. Refer to a post above where I say that I'm not one of the people who thinks that the majority of head coaches should be black. 575321[/snapback] I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that Black coaches are not as good as white coaches and that's why they aren't getting hired this year? Are you suggestiong that GM's and Owners are going out of thier way to make sure that they do not hire Black Head Coaches? Are you suggesting that Black coaches are going out of their way to turn down head coaching jobs? Are you suggesting that if a white Head Coach is hired then a Black head coach must be hired? Are you saying that no matter how many Head Coaches are in the NFL that nothing will be fair until there are more Black Head Coaches then White head coaches because it has been unfair for too many years. Personal I believe that bigotry knows no one color or nationality and if a person is so preoccupied in noticing what they consider to be bigotry that in most cases they become one themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Thus, though a fellow like Norm Chow is clearly a racial minority in our society, his hiring does not meet the NFL Rooney Rule because there is not the same history of discrimination against Chow's racial background by the NFL as there was against the numerous qualified people of A-A descent. 575525[/snapback] Which is pure ignorance of history. Asian-Americans have suffered far more discrimination in this country than Hispanic-Americans ever have. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Out of those coaches, only Henderson or Rivera are decent candidates, and I don't think that any team (besides maybe the Packers) didn't take who they thought was the best man for the job. The Packers were asleep when they decided on a coach I think. 575282[/snapback] McCarthy comes from the very-successful Mike Holmgren coaching tree. McCarthy also once coached Brett Favre, which is a huge consideration in Green Bay. McCarthy has a long track record of success, including HC interviews in prior seasons. This year, McCarthy was working with one of the most talent-deprived offenses in the League - so you have to consider what he was working with. And finally, the qualities that make one a successful coordinator are not the same qualities that make one a successful HC. Indeed, two of the League's most successful HC's were, Andy Reid and Herm Edwards, were *never* Coordinators. So, I think that the Packers were looking for the qualities they wanted in a HC and looking past a lost year coordinating a talent-deprived team. JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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