Mickey Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I have made the argument here, taken from "Imperial Hubris" that the democratic government we installed in Afghanistan is not likely to last munch longer than our willingness to keep that government in power by force. President Hamid Karzai has been mocked by the Taliban and AQ in Afghanistan (yes they are still there despite claims that they were "decimated") as nothing more than the mayor of Kabul. Another assassination attempt was made on his life yesterday. The situation now: "After the Kandahar attack, his security was dramatically tightened and he has since rarely been seen in Afghanistan outside his heavily fortified presidential palace, where he is protected by U.S. bodyguards." Karzai I don't get it, I thought we won this war? Why can't the President of Afghanistan leave his bedroom? You have to admire his bravery but the reality is that we may very well be deluding ourselves if we think that we can impose secular democracy by force on the Afghan people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I have made the argument here, taken from "Imperial Hubris" that the democratic government we installed in Afghanistan is not likely to last munch longer than our willingness to keep that government in power by force. President Hamid Karzai has been mocked by the Taliban and AQ in Afghanistan (yes they are still there despite claims that they were "decimated") as nothing more than the mayor of Kabul. Another assassination attempt was made on his life yesterday. The situation now: "After the Kandahar attack, his security was dramatically tightened and he has since rarely been seen in Afghanistan outside his heavily fortified presidential palace, where he is protected by U.S. bodyguards." Karzai I don't get it, I thought we won this war? Why can't the President of Afghanistan leave his bedroom? You have to admire his bravery but the reality is that we may very well be deluding ourselves if we think that we can impose secular democracy by force on the Afghan people. 35182[/snapback] The leader of Afghanistan has never been more than the mayor of Kabul. The society's an old (ancient, even) pastoral semi-nomadic tribal one in some of the most rugged terrain on the planet. I think you have to go back to the Khwarezm Empire before you find anyone who exercised any sort of control over the upper Hindu Kush region. As for the "I thought we won" part of your post...stick to what you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Democracy has been great for the poppy plant growers, they're growing and exporting more of the paste used to make heroin than when the Taliban was in charge. Capitalism is a great thing when left unchecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted September 17, 2004 Author Share Posted September 17, 2004 The leader of Afghanistan has never been more than the mayor of Kabul. The society's an old (ancient, even) pastoral semi-nomadic tribal one in some of the most rugged terrain on the planet. I think you have to go back to the Khwarezm Empire before you find anyone who exercised any sort of control over the upper Hindu Kush region. As for the "I thought we won" part of your post...stick to what you know. 35242[/snapback] Would you agree then that the government we install will not last longer than the presence of our bayonets? That is anonymous' point in "Imperial Hubris". As for the "we won", that is not my claim. Rumsfeld and Karzai had this to say last February: "I'm not seeing any indication the Taliban pose any military threat to Afghanistan," Rumsfeld said. Karzai: "The Taliban as a movement does not exist any more". Anonymous strongly disagrees. Who is right? I don't know but the President having to hide in a palace surrounded by foreign body guards is not an encouraging sign. For a group that doesn't exist anymore, they seem to get around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Would you agree then that the government we install will not last longer than the presence of our bayonets? That is anonymous' point in "Imperial Hubris". As for the "we won", that is not my claim. Rumsfeld and Karzai had this to say last February: "I'm not seeing any indication the Taliban pose any military threat to Afghanistan," Rumsfeld said. Karzai: "The Taliban as a movement does not exist any more". Anonymous strongly disagrees. Who is right? I don't know but the President having to hide in a palace surrounded by foreign body guards is not an encouraging sign. For a group that doesn't exist anymore, they seem to get around. 35406[/snapback] Ohh, I am biding my time, waiting for when these two democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan fold like a cheap suit. Some won't believe it until it HAPPENS! It's not our fault they are going to fold, but we should recognize that it takes a hell of a lot more than just blowing up things and bringing in our military to keep a country safe and secure. Flashbacks of 1975.... scary stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Ohh, I am biding my time, waiting for when these two democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan fold like a cheap suit. Some won't believe it until it HAPPENS! It's not our fault they are going to fold, but we should recognize that it takes a hell of a lot more than just blowing up things and bringing in our military to keep a country safe and secure. Flashbacks of 1975.... scary stuff. 35535[/snapback] Were you even alive in 1975? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Were you even alive in 1975? 35540[/snapback] Yes I was! When you see people hanging off of landing gear of 747's, trying to find ANY way to escape Vietnam, risking being crushed or dropped from hundreds of feet into the air, it has a lasting effect. That's how serious things will get once we eventually leave, and the extremists take over again. I hope people can get out to other places before that kind of madness happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Yes I was! When you see people hanging off of landing gear of 747's, trying to find ANY way to escape Vietnam, risking being crushed or dropped from hundreds of feet into the air, it has a lasting effect. That's how serious things will get once we eventually leave, and the extremists take over again. I hope people can get out to other places before that kind of madness happens. 35548[/snapback] Yeah, maybe they'll run to the better M.E. countries where they'll be welcomed with open arms. You know, like the Palestinians have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 19, 2004 Share Posted September 19, 2004 Would you agree then that the government we install will not last longer than the presence of our bayonets? That is anonymous' point in "Imperial Hubris". As for the "we won", that is not my claim. Rumsfeld and Karzai had this to say last February: "I'm not seeing any indication the Taliban pose any military threat to Afghanistan," Rumsfeld said. Karzai: "The Taliban as a movement does not exist any more". Anonymous strongly disagrees. Who is right? I don't know but the President having to hide in a palace surrounded by foreign body guards is not an encouraging sign. For a group that doesn't exist anymore, they seem to get around. 35406[/snapback] I'm still working on my response to this...turns out it's a long and convoluted one. But I haven't forgotten. And by the way, Rumsfeld's a moron. Worse, if he believes what he's shoveling, he's a dangerous moron who doesn't understand his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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