AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The article mentions "deep balls," which are obviously balls that travel far through the air. 416155[/snapback] Wrong again! Pass stats in the NFL are based upon where the tackle is made, not where the ball is thrown. You've tied yourself to a losing argument and you're now trying to bail out. Sorry but 'm disinclined to allow that. You represented- in fact based your whole "Long Ball Brady" premise on some stats you promised to come later- when they came they directly contradicited your premise. It's hardly surprising the Pat's fans have run you off and you're now trapped in the Troll existence- the inability to tell the truth often leads to vagrancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Wrong again! Pass stats in the NFL are based upon where the tackle is made, not where the ball is thrown. Who said the article is based on pass stats? It's fairly obvious to anyone with an ounce of logical reasoning and reading comprehension ability that the relevant portion of the article in question is based on the distance a pass travels through the air, not the distance between the LOS and the eventual end of the play. You can't be serious about all of this. Look at this passage: "The disparity of short and vertical passes clearly illustrates the Patriots passing game philosophy. When the Pats pass short, they are going to be certain they don't make mistakes on it. They are more willing to make mistakes on vertical passes." Notice the author's word use - "short and vertical passes," not "short passes that are stopped immediately and short passes that go for big gains." It's obvious that by "deep balls" or "vertical passes," the author is referring to passes that are thrown from one point and are caught much further down the field. Am I speaking simply enough? I'm not sure how much more plainly I can put it so that you can be made to understand this fairly simple concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJ's Glove Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Wrong again! Pass stats in the NFL are based upon where the tackle is made, not where the ball is thrown. You've tied yourself to a losing argument and you're now trying to bail out. Sorry but 'm disinclined to allow that. You represented- in fact based your whole "Long Ball Brady" premise on some stats you promised to come later- when they came they directly contradicited your premise. It's hardly surprising the Pat's fans have run you off and you're now trapped in the Troll existence- the inability to tell the truth often leads to vagrancy. 416249[/snapback] Anyone with two eyes can see that Brady throws deep much more often than when he first became a starter. It's blatantly obvious, and HD's stats are correct. Watch the most recent AFCCG against Pittsburgh, and watch how often they went deep. That was a consisent part of their gameplan in 2004, not a departure from what they usually do. Obvious if you actually watch the games, I mean. It's pretty laughable for someone to criticize others about a "troll-existence", when they are seemingly trapped in a "Brady-hating existence" of their own. So much so that they would rather look foolish and dig the hole deeper than admit a mistake. Why should anyone expect you to understand statistics? Especially someone who has a completely misleading, biased and completely meaningless "statistic" in their own signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I can't decide if AKC is someone who: a) holds beliefs and opinions that are indefensible, thus forcing him to resort to unfathomable semantic-specific tactics to somehow convince himself that he's correct. or: b) has great difficulty understanding simple concepts, and truly can't see why his logic and arguments are so flawed and inaccurate. I'm leaning towards "a" at the moment, for his snideness does not fit the profile of "b." A fascinating psychological subject, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJ's Glove Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 OR: c.) Knows he's wrong in this case, but can't admit or cede a point of any importance to Patriots fans because it would kill him. Better to simply yell louder, pretend he's right outwardly, and hope the argument goes away. I'd ask him to pay attention to dave mcbride, but that would require actually taking someone else's advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 OR: c.) Knows he's wrong in this case, but can't admit or cede a point of any importance to Patriots fans because it would kill him. Better to simply yell louder, pretend he's right outwardly, and hope the argument goes away. Keep in mind, this isn't a one-time thing. He once argued fervently that Drew Bledsoe is among the most productive QBs in NFL history, based solely on his career passing yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJ's Glove Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Keep in mind, this isn't a one-time thing. He once argued fervently that Drew Bledsoe is among the most productive QBs in NFL history, based solely on his career passing yards. 416264[/snapback] Sheesh. I guess it's true if "throwing for a lot of yards" is your one and only definition of "productive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Am I speaking simply enough? 416251[/snapback] The clock is ticking- Produce even a single piece of evidence that the story you referenced is based upon anything other than the official NFL pass stats (which have ALWAYS included RAC)- if you are unable to you are either incoherent or simply a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I can't decide if AKC is someone who: How about d.) A guy who enjoys entertaining the rest of us by torturing opposing teams' fans in the process of weeding out the idiots, an endeavour in which he's been succesful thus far. You're doing pretty fair work there Hollywood, keep it up. You just better hope he doesn't notice this quote(which takes a familiar soudning position that somebody has taken somewhere in this thread) from teh article you posted to support your point: "The synergy of Brady's skills and the Patriots skill maximization philosophy has simply made each of them better than they should be." Did I type that out loud? Ooooopsies....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The clock is ticking- Produce even a single piece of evidence that the story you referenced is based upon anything other than the official NFL pass stats. The use of the phrase "deep balls" - which you yourself have used multiple times in this thread to describe a pass that travels many yards through the air - is not enough for you? I am not responsible for your lack of reading comprehension ability. I posted the facts, and I cannot help you if you are unable to understand them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taterhill Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The use of the phrase "deep balls" 416806[/snapback] whoaaaa...this is a family board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 whoaaaa...this is a family board I do feel kind of creepy having to type that so many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I do feel kind of creepy having to type that so many times. 416922[/snapback] Why?...got something against the Kennedys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I posted the facts, and I cannot help you if you are unable to understand them. 416806[/snapback] You boasted that you would offer evidence supported by stats compiled that included "ball in the air", further qualified by you as pass stats that WOULD NOT INCLUDE RAC yardage. The evidence you offered includes RAC yardage, hence your boast was absolute BS. You could simply admit that you made an error, maybe say you meant some OTHER story that you now can't locate, or I will continue to point out that you're full of sh-- for lying about something you can't produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 i think brady is hands down the best qb in the league, my guess is that the success will continue. i hope not, of course. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=2330 ne's offense has gone from 19 (01) to 22 (02) to 18 (03) to 7 (04). some of it's corey dillon, but more of it is tom brady. 416215[/snapback] I always begin with the presumption that QB is easily the most overrated, surely the most overwatched, position on a football team. It's amazing to me that fans of the game would assume that an efficient QB like Drew Bress, who threw half as many INTs as Brady last year in similar attempts, wouldn't walk right into NE and be as effective as Brady. I also find it puzzling that some would assume that a complete NFL QB like Peyton Manning wouldn't suceed there. The toughest thing to listen to though is the comparison to the historic greats. What an insult to complete QBs in our own time like John Elway or great system QBs who didn't crumble like Brady when facing pressure like Joe Montana. What I see when I see Brady is another Rich Gannon or Kurt Warner clone, a guy who got into a system that fits him well but who couldn't start at a lot of NFL addresses. If you do buy the Brady hype you'd have to believe he would start in Minnesota or Arizona, and for that matter be succesful if he did, and I don't buy it. He does some things very well on a team that has done an awesome job protecting him enought to allow his own good instincts to limit the little pressure he has seen. But when team's have beaten the Pat's front line Brady has looked more like Bob Avellini than Joe Montana. Will I get a chance to see Brady play on a declining Pat's team to measure my assumptions? I'm betting I will, and sooner rather than later. At the same time it's possible Belichick has become a much better coach over the course of the NE years and if he doesn't get dinged up too much from the OC and DC losses I may have to eat crow and watch Brady break records. I just have a gut feeling that his career might end up looking a lot more Kurt Warner than John Elway or Joe Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokinandjokin Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The fact is there is a tremendous chasm between being "barely good enough by your kicker's foot" and the huge leap from there to being an actual "Dynasty". AKC, I appreciate what you're doing here, and I think it's great when someone ruffles the Pats fans a bit, but I would edit the above line from your signature. It's a very easy target for "Barely not good enough by your kicker's foot." I can think of one occasion where I wish Norwide was barely good enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 "The synergy of Brady's skills and the Patriots skill maximization philosophy has simply made each of them better than they should be." 416650[/snapback] I could hardly get through the whole article- thanks for taking the time. Now find your own troll to piss on, this one's mine ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 AKC, I appreciate what you're doing here, and I think it's great when someone ruffles the Pats fans a bit, but I would edit the above line from your signature. It's a very easy target for "Barely not good enough by your kicker's foot." I can think of one occasion where I wish Norwide was barely good enough.... 416947[/snapback] I think that exemplifies exactly how tenuous their success to date has been. We were as close as they were to the big win but, unlike the Pats, the best player in a Bill's uniform in the big game wasn't our kicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 You boasted that you would offer evidence supported by stats compiled that included "ball in the air", further qualified by you as pass stats that WOULD NOT INCLUDE RAC yardage. "DEEP BALLS" ARE BALL THAT TRAVEL A LONG DISTANCE "IN THE AIR." YOU YOURSELF USED THE TERM IN THIS MANNER. How you cannot understand this is beyond me. The evidence you offered includes RAC yardage. It simply does not. The article references "deep balls" and "vertical passes," which very obviously refer to passes that travel a great distance "in the air," and not short passes with RAC added on. You were made to look foolish by your false claim that Brady rarely throws vertical passes, an you're trying to save face. It's understandable, but a twisted semantical game akin to debating the definition of "is" is not the way to go about it. Admit you were wrong, and gain back a little respect from the rest of the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The article references "deep balls" and "vertical passes," which very obviously refer to passes that travel a great distance "in the air," and not short passes with RAC added on. 416979[/snapback] I simply won't allow you to make these complete fabrications of the facts- you said the stats YOU would provide would be for "balls in the air", yet you can't show a single reference in the article that mentions this as their tool of analysis. Where does it talk about the methodology of your fantasy set of stats- stats they would have had to research exclusively for this article? If your premise was in any way believable, and if, after developing a set of statistics other than the league stats, in fact a set of stats that supported their asseritons in the article, you would have us believe that they would make NO REFERENCE AT ALL TO THOSE STATS OR THE NUMBERS THEY CAME UP WITH! If you believe what you are saying you are a fool. If you don't believe what you are saying (as I suspect) you are a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 ...you said the stats YOU would provide would be for "balls in the air"... And they are. But I guess ignorance is bliss, right? Your anti-Brady paradise won't be disturbed if you simply close your eyes and ears to the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taterhill Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 is it bad that whenever AKC gets involved in a thread, it makes my head hurt and want to jump out a window Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 is it bad that whenever AKC gets involved in a thread, it makes my head hurt and want to jump out a window Not bad at all. Same thing happens to me. It's as if he exists in a vacuum in which logic can't survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 And they are. But I guess ignorance is bliss, right? Your anti-Brady paradise won't be disturbed if you simply close your eyes and ears to the facts. 417013[/snapback] I see you've opted to accept your proper title as "Liar". Nice RAC Pinocchio ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Nothing like a good ole' fashioned argument with a Pats troll to pass the preseason away. All we're missing now is a bet, where SDS can piss away numerous hours looking through the archives for some meaningless post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Nothing like a good ole' fashioned argument with a Pats troll to pass the preseason away. All we're missing now is a bet, where SDS can piss away numerous hours looking through the archives for some meaningless post. 417219[/snapback] Bad bad, mentioning that bet, just going to stir up a lot of trouble I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Nothing like a good ole' fashioned argument with a Pats troll to pass the preseason away. All we're missing now is a bet, where SDS can piss away numerous hours looking through the archives for some meaningless post. 417219[/snapback] My understanding is it took more like "minutes" to confirm the "bet" in question had been rejected. I would agree that it's very similar to stats that directly contradict the purpose they've been presented for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I see you've opted to accept your proper title as "Liar". Nice RAC Pinocchio ;-) It's still shocking to me that you can't understand the nature of the data provided by the article in question, when it is obvious to me and all others who have read it. That said, you're in luck - ATBNG has supplied me with the statistics that I was too lazy/incompetent to find. Many thanks go out to him for his help in making you look foolish: CNN/SI has statistics on YAC as well as passing yardage from scrimmage from 2004. I looked up the passing stats for teams in 2004. I took each team's total passing yards from scrimmage and compared them to the total team YAC. Here's the top 13 teams in the NFL in passing yards last season (since New England is 13th in yards from scrimmage). 1. Minny - 50.1% of the total passing yards consisted of YAC. The team had 4754 passing yards, and a team total of 2383 yards after the catch. 2. Indy - 38.1% 3. KC - 43.1% 4. St. Louis - 38.2% 5. Green Bay - 37.7% 6. Philly - 46.1% 7. Denver - 42.3% 8. Oakland - 40.8% 9. Tenn - 36.3% 10. Carolina - 33.7% 11. New Orleans - 37.0% 12. Tampa Bay - 46.5% 13. New England - 35.8% The league average last year was 41.0% So, out of the 13 teams that had the most passing yardage in the NFL last year, the Patriots were second in terms of what percentage component of that total came from the air as opposed what was gained after the completion was made. There are your precious stats. They back up everything I've said in this thread, and everything that was stated in the article I provided. Now shut up and stop trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 It's still shocking to me that you can't understand the nature of the data provided by the article in question, when it is obvious to me and all others who have read it. 417249[/snapback] I'm glad to see you finally acknowledge that the stats you were trying to pass off as supporting your positon were in fact a direct refutation of your representation. As far as your honesty issues the first step is in acknowledging them. One step at a time, Pinocchio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 a kid from Niskeyuna NY local boy around here hope he has a good year , except for when he plays the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I'm glad to see you finally acknowledge that the stats you were trying to pass off as supporting your positon were in fact a direct refutation of your representation. Where did I do that, now? The stats I supplied most certainly did support my position. I was arguing that Brady throws as many or more deep passes than the average QB, and the article I posted stated that Brady ranked 4th in the NFL in deep pass percentage. How can you contend that that doesn't support my argument? The subject of our debate is Brady's deep pass percentage and one of the subjects of the article I posted is Brady's deep pass percentage. They are one and the same. Why can't you grasp this? And as for your now-deleted comment on the accuracy of ATBNG's stats, here's where he likely got the total team YAC numbers. That should settle it for you. You were wrong about Brady, you were wrong about the article I posted...you were wrong about EVERYTHING. Now, seriously, stop trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 here's where he likely got the total team YAC numbers. That should settle it for you. You were wrong about Brady, you were wrong about the article I posted...you were wrong about EVERYTHING. 417270[/snapback] Actually, the stats from ATBNG conclusively show only one thing- that the average pass in the air for NE traveled 8.21 yards in 2004. You can't then extrapolate the number of "deep balls" versus "short balls" from that stat in any way, or where the majority of their RAC came from, etc., those assumptions are not supported by the statistics. A conclusion that CAN be supported from the ATBNG stats is that clearly long ball teams show a higher percentage of RAC than small ball teams. The 40%+ RAC teams are nearly exclusively the downfield passing teams while NE is down in the mix with most of the anemic short passing offenses. But I realize that won't keep you from trying! You still claim the article you posted is based upon pass yardage with no RAC when in fact you know that's a lie. I'm sure it will surprise no one that you'll try to fabricate a conclusion from the other stats which in fact are in no way supported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 You still claim the article you posted is based upon pass yardage with no RAC when in fact you know that's a lie. How so? I'll list two terms: - Deep passes - Vertical passes How would you define those terms? I should tell that I already know how you define "deep" passes, since you used the term earlier in this thread to describe balls that are launched by the QB at one point on the field and caught by a receiver at a point much further down the field. Having said that, I want to pose the question to you formally. How would you define them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 How so? I'll list two terms: - Deep passes - Vertical passes How would you define those terms? I should tell that I already know how you define "deep" passes, since you used the term earlier in this thread to How would you define them? 417298[/snapback] The definition depends upon whether we're including statistical evidence and applying the name or simply applying a fan's observations from field play. I'd approach it from the fan side by saying that since most downfield teams are going to go to the well maybe 5 or 6 times a game on the average and those are typically, with true "Long Ball" QBs like Culpepper tosses that break somehwere in the 45+ yards from QB to Receiver, I could live with a 45+ number without, of course RAC. Obviously we're not talking about any quality issues here, but the dinkers in the league can get maybe one big toss like that in a game without losing their arm over the course of the season but it's only the big boys who can do it any time and with regularity. Vertical passing is simply over the top of the defense and hence with stuffed running formations on the other side of the ball can be 20 yard passes in the right circumstances. The term is open to some intepretation, it surely is used in a variety of ways by game commentators, but a vertical game is simply an empahsis away from the sidelines and instead over the top of the D, in other words Yin to the lateral passing games Yang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 So we're in agreement, then. Glad that's settled. You, me, and Dr. Z (among others) all consider Brady one of the best deep passers around. I knew you'd come around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 So we're in agreement, then. Glad that's settled. You, me, and Dr. Z (among others) all consider Brady one of the best deep passers around. I knew you'd come around. 417315[/snapback] Yeah, when we see Brady tossing 6 or 7 50-yard balls a game back to back in the regular season I expect we'll have a few calls for a urine sample ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Yeah, when we see Brady tossing 6 or 7 50-yard balls a game back to back in the regular season I expect we'll have a few calls for a urine sample ;-) 417325[/snapback] Up from 5 or 6, I see. Seems your qualifications for "deep passer" are rising. Fourth highest percentage of deep passes in the league, with "deep passes" being defined by you as passes that travel extended distances in the air. It's right there for whenever you want to acknowledge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Up from 5 or 6, I see. Seems your qualifications for "deep passer" are rising. Fourth highest percentage of deep passes in the league, with "deep passes" being defined by you as passes that travel extended distances in the air. It's right there for whenever you want to acknowledge it. 417346[/snapback] You might save a little on Belladonna root- boil 'er up and chew to your heart's content. It should provide the same hallucinations you're getting from the Testor's without violating your court order to stay out of the hobby store ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman's Helmet Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 I love the fact that AKC tries to go through all this trouble to throw a few drops of rain on the Patriots THREE CHAMPIONSHIP PARADES. His efforts of course, are futile. Much like Picard's efforts to beat Kirk in the "Be a man" contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 I love the fact that AKC tries to go through all this trouble to throw a few drops of rain on the Patriots THREE CHAMPIONSHIP PARADES.His efforts of course, are futile. Much like Picard's efforts to beat Kirk in the "Be a man" contest. 417357[/snapback] That's odd, I didn't even hear your Clown Horn! My Yankees have given me 9 CHAMPIONSHIP PARADES. I'm surprised you haven't bought one of their jerseys yet. I enjoy seeing the silly and uniformed act even sillier and less informed- it makes the Bandwagon crash so much more fun to watch 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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