Excellent article on Vikings and Darnold decison (Athletic; paywalled)

[GaryPinC]

21 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

There was an entire article a couple weeks back also in the Athletic about how QB's are mostly all being ruined today by getting them out there way to fast.  But the coaches job is on the line so it's done, repeatedly.

 

Recall years back my thought was that seemed like some of the better QB's in NFLK came from small schools as they didn't have 10 All Americans surrounding them. 

 

Hmmmmm.  Do All Americans still exist or am I dating myself??

I think the bottom line that's emerging is many NFL front offices need better plans to develop their QB's.  Mahomes would have been fine if he had started his rookie year.  Josh has been fine.  Mayfield could read defenses pre-snap at Oklahoma and was rookie of the year in 2018.  The wheels fell off because of coaching incompetency in Cleveland.  Baker is the most obvious example of how FOs fail their QBs.  Besides the Jets, of course.

 

For some QBs more time on the bench is a must.  But it falls on the FO knowing how best to develop their QB, and teaching their QB how best to develop themselves.  Think about all the diverse off-season work Josh has put in to grow his game.  Without this self-motivation, I think it takes him much longer to develop and maybe he never hits his ceiling.

[GaryPinC]

11 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

One name from a long time ago from a small school was Phil Simms

 

Was watching one of the post game shows today and the commentator was talking about Penn State struggles practically with passing and his exact words were "Penn St has paid a lot for these WR's!"  The absurdity of a statement like that is wild, but it's the era we now are in.

 

 

 

Waited as long as the could for the sake of the coaches jobs or for the good of the player?

Depends on if they are asking these rookies to do things at game speed that they are incapable of?  Bill Parcells was well known for only installing gameplans his QB was comfortable executing.  I think the vast majority of players learn best by doing, if it has to be a real game, they must be fully prepared and comfortable on what they're trying to do to learn lessons and grow.

[boyst]

3 hours ago, Spiderweb said:

Ohio State fan, eh?

The Ohio State 

[BarleyNY]

On 10/4/2025 at 10:14 AM, dave mcbride said:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6677047/2025/10/02/jj-mccarthy-sam-darnold-vikings-seahawks/
 

A sample:

 

‘When the Vikings were winning with Darnold last season, I asked a veteran coach to watch the Vikings' offense in hopes of learning just how well Darnold was playing. The coach thought there was a big gap between Darnold's impressive 2024 stats and how well he was actually playing for Minnesota. We found relatively few high-level plays in the games we watched.

 

That same coach could not believe he was watching the same quarterback when he flipped through the Seahawks' offensive plays with Darnold this season.

 

"The whole thing was Tier 1," this coach said. "No one we know is throwing better than that."

 

Play after play showed Darnold delivering the ball accurately and with nuance, including against the rush.

 

"He used to be jittery in there," the coach said. "Now, he stands in there and looks down the barrel. A couple times, he jumped and threw like (Aaron) Rodgers does. He dropped to three-quarters (delivery)."

 

Was this really the same player?

 

"The deep ball has been accurate, making sure they can catch the ball and assuring the yardage," the coach said. "He's throwing it correctly into the short zones to keep his guys alive, which is interesting. He is leading receivers away from the hook defender, making the guy slide on the digs. He's way better. I'm so impressed."’

 

Thank you for posting. It is an excellent article. I’m gonna have to watch some Seahawks games. 

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Chaos said:

This guy Josh Allen was rushed into starting 11 games his rookie year.  He seems to be developing fine despite the rush.  I am certain analysis would show that the majority of the highly successful QBs started their rookie seasons.  The "coaches" who are hanging on to "QBs are rushed", are the kind of guys who Billy Beane fired on the Athletics, because despite their massive confidence and long experience, they were simply wrong. 

 

 

The reason most successful QBs started their rookie seasons isn't that it served them well. It's simply that almost nobody drafted high does NOT start much or at all their rookie seasons.

 

Except Mahomes. And Aaron Rodgers. And Jordan Love. And Jalen Hurts. And Phillip Rivers. And Drew Brees. And Carson Palmer. And Brett Favre. Tom Brady wasn't drafted high, but not playing early sure didn't hurt him.

 

The exceptions, um, had some pretty good success.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

I think the bottom line that's emerging is many NFL front offices need better plans to develop their QB's.  Mahomes would have been fine if he had started his rookie year.  Josh has been fine.  Mayfield could read defenses pre-snap at Oklahoma and was rookie of the year in 2018.  The wheels fell off because of coaching incompetency in Cleveland.  Baker is the most obvious example of how FOs fail their QBs.  Besides the Jets, of course.

 

For some QBs more time on the bench is a must.  But it falls on the FO knowing how best to develop their QB, and teaching their QB how best to develop themselves.  Think about all the diverse off-season work Josh has put in to grow his game.  Without this self-motivation, I think it takes him much longer to develop and maybe he never hits his ceiling.

 

 

And your evidence that Mahomes would have been fine? Right, none. A completely unsupported opinion.

 

What Mahomes himself has said and thought can be seen a bit in this article from Albert Breer written about his first start of his second year:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/14/patrick-mahomes-kansas-city-chiefs-andy-reid

 

Here's an excerpt:  

 

“I made the right read and got the ball into his hands,” Mahomes said on Thursday, from the Chiefs facility. “Just stuff like that, where you don’t have to make the amazing play, you can just make the right read, put the ball into your playmaker’s hands and score big touchdowns that way. I definitely benefited from having that year to learn to not try to take the big shot at every single play.”

Mahomes is right. He didn’t take a shot there. But the result hit the Chargers like a hollow point bullet—Hill caught the ball in stride, streaking to Mahomes’s left side and taking advantage of a Los Angeles defense influenced to the right by the play’s run action. Fifty-eight yards later, it was 14–3 Chiefs. And the 22-year-old’s time at the helm of Andy Reid’s offense was, quite literally, off and running.

That was just one play exemplifying how far he’s come. By the time the sun-soaked afternoon in L.A. was over, the Chiefs had 38 points on the scoreboard and Mahomes had completed 15 of 27 attempts for 256 yards, four touchdowns and a 127.5 rating, which amounts to a lot of proof that Reid and the Chiefs did right by their young gunslinger last year.

 

(And worth noting while looking at those last few lines that the one game he played as a rookie, he had a rating of 76.4, zero TDs and one INT, while in that first game his second season he had four TDs, zero INTs and a rating more than 50 points higher.)

 

 

 

Totally agree with your second paragraph, though. Some guys need time much more than others

[GaryPinC]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

And your evidence that Mahomes would have been fine? Right, none. A completely unsupported opinion.

 

What Mahomes himself has said and thought can be seen a bit in this article from Albert Breer written about his first start of his second year:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/14/patrick-mahomes-kansas-city-chiefs-andy-reid

 

Here's an excerpt:  

 

“I made the right read and got the ball into his hands,” Mahomes said on Thursday, from the Chiefs facility. “Just stuff like that, where you don’t have to make the amazing play, you can just make the right read, put the ball into your playmaker’s hands and score big touchdowns that way. I definitely benefited from having that year to learn to not try to take the big shot at every single play.”

Mahomes is right. He didn’t take a shot there. But the result hit the Chargers like a hollow point bullet—Hill caught the ball in stride, streaking to Mahomes’s left side and taking advantage of a Los Angeles defense influenced to the right by the play’s run action. Fifty-eight yards later, it was 14–3 Chiefs. And the 22-year-old’s time at the helm of Andy Reid’s offense was, quite literally, off and running.

That was just one play exemplifying how far he’s come. By the time the sun-soaked afternoon in L.A. was over, the Chiefs had 38 points on the scoreboard and Mahomes had completed 15 of 27 attempts for 256 yards, four touchdowns and a 127.5 rating, which amounts to a lot of proof that Reid and the Chiefs did right by their young gunslinger last year.

 

(And worth noting while looking at those last few lines that the one game he played as a rookie, he had a rating of 76.4, zero TDs and one INT, while in that first game his second season he had four TDs, zero INTs and a rating more than 50 points higher.)

 

 

 

Totally agree with your second paragraph, though. Some guys need time much more than others

I certainly wasn't implying he didn't benefit by sitting a longer time.  I was saying, that like Allen, he would have been fine.  My evidence?  College.  You could easily see his ability to manipulate windows and players with his eyes and body language.  People claimed he was a system quarterback, but when Mahomes missed a game and a half his last year, his backup definitely executed a system offense and it was a stark contrast to how dynamic Mahomes played it.

 

He also had the arm talent and pocket awareness.  They only thing they had to change was his ball delivery, as his footwork was straight off the mound!

Edited 10 hours ago by GaryPinC

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

I certainly wasn't implying he didn't benefit by sitting a longer time.  I was saying, that like Allen, he would have been fine.  My evidence?  College.  You could easily see his ability to manipulate windows and players with his eyes and body language.  People claimed he was a system quarterback, but when Mahomes missed a game and a half his last year, his backup definitely executed a system offense and it was a stark contrast to how dynamic Mahomes played it.

 

He also had the arm talent and pocket awareness.  They only thing they had to change was his ball delivery, as his footwork was straight off the mound!

 

 

Yeah, I got what you're saying. And again, there simply isn't a lot of reason to think so other than wanting to believe it. Again, Mahomes himself said he improved a ton. And got specific about what he learned.

 

Well, college just isn't even close to enough evidence to say he would have been fine without that extra year. He was raw. Certainly talented also, a wildly talented arm. But very raw. His mechanics were inconsistent, and yes, that did include his footwork. His decision-making also was inconsistent. That was sort of the magic word for Mahomes, inconsistent. But not after that year of QB camp with Reid and Alex Smith. He learned a ton from Smith and Reid that year, it went very far beyond mechanics into understanding of game management and the willingness to stop constantly looking for the long ball and run the offense.

 

So you're wrong about his footwork. He'd already changed it before his pro day. Just listen to the Mayock link I put at the bottom of this post.

 

And no, they did a whole ton more than changing delivery his first year. He got an absolute ton of mental work, work in reading defenses work in learning the playbook that freshman year. Reid had him 10 yards behind Alex Smith doing mental reps every single one of Smith's training camp 11 on 11s.

 

"He's got a great arm, big balls and he's mobile. He is going to drive his head coach crazy for the first couple of years and there is no getting around that. If it clicks for him and he's coachable, I think he could become a special quarterback." - NFC executive

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/patrick-mahomes/32004d41-4840-1939-e4c1-bb89191b4e71

 

Again, it's very very clear that he'd changed his footwork and mechanics after college. Just listen to this from Mayock at his pro day:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX22m9txxUM

 

No particular reason to think we can be sure he'd have been fine without that year, not beyond wanting to believe it. 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Thurman#1