VABills Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 So, what you are saying is that the US should take it's moral lead from a lynchmob in Fallujah? Besides, as the US itself has admitted, not everyone in it's custody is guilty of anything, which is why they release large numbers of them at regular intervals. 273142[/snapback] Chicot, you are right. If there are people in prison that are innocent they should be released right away. But the vast majority did something to be there, if not all. Rockey laucher in shoulder, hiding insurants, etc... For them, no free lunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Chicot, you are right. If there are people in prison that are innocent they should be released right away. But the vast majority did something to be there, if not all. Rockey laucher in shoulder, hiding insurants, etc... For them, no free lunch. 273144[/snapback] Not sure about the "vast majority". I remember seeing figures of "70%" being innocent being quoted a while back, though that's probably not accurate anymore. I'm not saying they should have a free lunch, but they shouldn't be tortured either. Besides it may not be so simple to decide immediately whether someone is innocent or not (unless they're actually caught with an RPG or planting an IED) and if you torture them in the meantime, you'll probably end up torturing quite a few innocents. In my view, saying that anyone should have no rights is the beginning of a slippery slope. A law has just been passed over here whereby someone suspected of something can be detained without any right to a trial or even of knowing what the evidence is against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Not sure about the "vast majority". I remember seeing figures of "70%" being innocent being quoted a while back, though that's probably not accurate anymore. I'm not saying they should have a free lunch, but they shouldn't be tortured either. Besides it may not be so simple to decide immediately whether someone is innocent or not (unless they're actually caught with an RPG or planting an IED) and if you torture them in the meantime, you'll probably end up torturing quite a few innocents. In my view, saying that anyone should have no rights is the beginning of a slippery slope. A law has just been passed over here whereby someone suspected of something can be detained without any right to a trial or even of knowing what the evidence is against them. 273159[/snapback] I think you and I are a lot closer to agreeing then you realize. I just may not be as "poetic" with my words to really state my point. I agree that you should not torture someone unless they are caught doing something, and yes hiding insurgants is something. But I would hope that the allied forces are not just rounding up thousands and throwing them in jail. I really can't believe that is happening. I am betting that they were someplace they shouldn't have been, but maybe ignorant of what was happening. I believe the media has a tendancy to over react and may not reporting "the news" but rather their biased version of things. Again who are these "witnesses" , my bet is they are terroists and insurgants just looking to make the troops look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Just like here that SOB who killed the deputy, judge and court reporter is now going to spend 10 years going through court systems, appeals, etc... before he sees the chair if he even does then. On a side note, buried in a story about this was how the perp had the opportunity to commit the murders in the first place. Law requires that defendants not be handcuffed as they enter the courtroom to make sure the sight of cuffs doesn't unfairly influence the jury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I object to the treatment of the girl, if it is true. Sex crime is wrong no matter who perpetrates it. As for the "shivering" 17 year old, I dont care. If this makes me a bad person, so be it. Petrino, I must say that your post is very transparent. This is obviously nothing more than a slap at the president, as if he is over there looking at the girls breasts. Yeah, OK. Dont you wish that you could sit on the lap of Nancy Pelosi and tell her your tales of woe? Perhaps you could also tearfully kneel at the feet of your queen, Hillary, that great stateswoman who tells jokes about Asians, and no longer loves abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman's Helmet Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Funny how over here we all know whats reported on the news is barely approaching truth so why should believe its different when reported from overseas? Or from Al-Qaeda-Jazeera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Chicot, you are right. If there are people in prison that are innocent they should be released right away. But the vast majority did something to be there, if not all. Rockey laucher in shoulder, hiding insurants, etc... For them, no free lunch. 273144[/snapback] I agree with all of this. I'm simply saying that if it's okay for them to drag innocent bodies through the street and set them on fire, but we have to be politically correct, then we're wasting our time behind a pussified front that is half the reason this country is so screwed up to begin with. I'm tired of our country being pussified. It's the reason we're in this freaking mess to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 I agree with all of this. I'm simply saying that if it's okay for them to drag innocent bodies through the street and set them on fire, but we have to be politically correct, then we're wasting our time behind a pussified front that is half the reason this country is so screwed up to begin with. I'm tired of our country being pussified. It's the reason we're in this freaking mess to begin with. 273822[/snapback] I'm curious. Are you aware of these events, that took place in Fallujah months before the contractors were killed, indeed before there had been any resistance whatsoever in Fallujah? US troops kill 13, injure 25 demonstrators Yes, the troops claimed they were fired on first (shades of Bloody Sunday) but the fact is that no US soldier was killed, nor were any injured. There were also British reporters covering the demonstration (no, they weren't from the friggin' Guardian) and they stated they didn't see or hear any shots before the US opened fire on the crowd. There was also another demonstration the following day in which several Iraqi demonstrators were killed when US troops, once again, opened fire. Don't get me wrong, there is no justification for what happened to the contractors - that was barbarism pure and simple. However, it seems that this event has been airbrushed out of history - it is hardly ever referred to in the British media and I would be suprised if the American media is any better. Everyone knows about the killing of the contractors, how many know about this? How many even care? Let me present a scenario for you: foreign troops arrive in LA and take over a school to use as their base. Residents protest and demand they leave the school so that children can then attend classes. The troops then open fire on the crowd, killing 13 and wounding 25. How do you think the population of LA would react? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
***PetrinoInAlbany*** Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 Responding to Petrino is like responding to a one year old. There is no way you can use thirty dollar words with him because, all he's got are ten cent answers. Don't waste your time gentleman 271991[/snapback] Mean-spirited, and without substance. That all you got? Jeesh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Mean-spirited, and without substance. 274316[/snapback] Ahhh...the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
***PetrinoInAlbany*** Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 Ahhh...the irony. 274318[/snapback] Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Indeed. 274324[/snapback] Glad you agree that your posts are mean-spirited and lacking of substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 Mean-spirited, and without substance. That all you got? Jeesh... 274316[/snapback] Nothing mean spirited about my post, had it been as you say I'm sure it would have been deleted. What I posted was fact. I can get mean spirited if you like? Maybe something along the lines of........... Na, I've wasted enough of my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 Let me present a scenario for you: foreign troops arrive in LA and take over a school to use as their base. Residents protest and demand they leave the school so that children can then attend classes. The troops then open fire on the crowd, killing 13 and wounding 25. How do you think the population of LA would react? you forgot to mention the part about the governor of california having killed and tortured thousands on a regular basis, and the foreign troops arriving to overthrow that person. Obviously there would be a huge outcry about innocent people being killed, but I don't think the residents of LA would rush to CUT THE HEADS off of the foreigners who are trying to fix the sewers. and I don't think the Catholics in Mexico would come across the border to blow themselves up and kill innocent californians who are trying to find jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 you forgot to mention the part about the governor of california having killed and tortured thousands on a regular basis, and the foreign troops arriving to overthrow that person. Obviously there would be a huge outcry about innocent people being killed, but I don't think the residents of LA would rush to CUT THE HEADS off of the foreigners who are trying to fix the sewers. and I don't think the Catholics in Mexico would come across the border to blow themselves up and kill innocent californians who are trying to find jobs. 274708[/snapback] As I said, I'm not trying to justify what happened to the contractors. However, I do believe the media is constructing a very one-sided picture of what occurred in Fallujah and this (seldom-mentioned) incident certainly contributed to hatred of the US in Fallujah. They probably wouldn't cut off their heads, but are you so sure they would be in no danger? Wasn't a truck driver beaten to death by a mob following the Rodney King incident? Mobs are very ugly things, no matter what their nationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 As I said, I'm not trying to justify what happened to the contractors. However, I do believe the media is constructing a very one-sided picture of what occurred in Fallujah and this (seldom-mentioned) incident certainly contributed to hatred of the US in Fallujah. They probably wouldn't cut off their heads, but are you so sure they would be in no danger? Wasn't a truck driver beaten to death by a mob following the Rodney King incident? Mobs are very ugly things, no matter what their nationality. 274842[/snapback] chicot, you seem to hold the US/Brits to a much higher standard than you do Islamic countries. Why is this? Do you find us to be more civilized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 chicot, you seem to hold the US/Brits to a much higher standard than you do Islamic countries. Why is this? Do you find us to be more civilized? 274865[/snapback] I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Certainly I hold the governments of the US and UK to a higher standard since they are democracies, unlike most Islamic countries. I'm not sure that the actual populations are necessarily more civilized - certainly western countries are more developed and have a higher standard of living and this obviously has some effect on behaviour. I think most people want similar things from life, no matter where you go - a good life, a family etc... When these things are denied to them, for whatever reason, they tend to become "less civilized". I'll go back to my earlier point - was the mob that beat the truck driver to death in the race riots in LA really any much more civilized than the mob that mutiliated the bodies of the contractors in Fallujah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Certainly I hold the governments of the US and UK to a higher standard since they are democracies, unlike most Islamic countries. I'm not sure that the actual populations are necessarily more civilized - certainly western countries are more developed and have a higher standard of living and this obviously has some effect on behaviour. I think most people want similar things from life, no matter where you go - a good life, a family etc... When these things are denied to them, for whatever reason, they tend to become "less civilized". I'll go back to my earlier point - was the mob that beat the truck driver to death in the race riots in LA really any much more civilized than the mob that mutiliated the bodies of the contractors in Fallujah? 274911[/snapback] From what I saw of the LA mob, they were opportunistic criminals. I remember that one of them struck the driver with a bottle, which was barbaric. What they did not do was shoot him 9 times, carve him up, shoot him some more and leave a note on his body. Make no mistake, I do not defend the LA mob. Were it up to me the people who did that truck driver would rot in jail, nor would I shed a tear if they were executed. I just do not see the same level of hate in your comparison. Jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 From what I saw of the LA mob, they were opportunistic criminals. I remember that one of them struck the driver with a bottle, which was barbaric. What they did not do was shoot him 9 times, carve him up, shoot him some more and leave a note on his body. Make no mistake, I do not defend the LA mob. Were it up to me the people who did that truck driver would rot in jail, nor would I shed a tear if they were executed. I just do not see the same level of hate in your comparison. Jmo. 274926[/snapback] Likewise, I do not defend the actions of the mob in Fallujah - it was barbaric. What I object to, is this perception, perpetuated in my view by unbalanced media coverage, that their hatred came out of thin air and that nothing had happened in Fallujah before to contribute to it. Perhaps I am expecting too much, but I believe that in a free society the media has a duty to try and tell the whole story. I understand that the forthcoming movie about the battle for Fallujah is going to take as it's starting point the murder of the contractors, thus conveniently ignoring what happened when the US arrived in the city and further perpetuating this myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 I'll go back to my earlier point - was the mob that beat the truck driver to death in the race riots in LA really any much more civilized than the mob that mutiliated the bodies of the contractors in Fallujah? 274911[/snapback] I don't think that truck driver died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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