stuckincincy Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Well let's compare here for a second. Musically they are nowhere near as good as any of the bands I mentioned. I've heard bands on blues night at the local bar that I think play as good as the Greatful Dead did. That's not a knock on the Dead, it's just that their style of music was so simplistic that it didn't take a whole lot of skill to play it. Now I don't mean that I can pick up a guitar and play it, but anyone with a general skill on guitar or bass or drums could play their material. Visually they don't compare either. When I go to a show I don't just want to watch the band stand there and play their instruments. I want to be entertained. Bands like Pink Floyd were musically stunning and added great visuals to make it spectacular. The Dead does compare to Led Zeppelin though in this category. Zeppelin was never much for theatrics. Just because a band creates a certain genre doesn't make them great. The Sex Pistols brought punk to the mainstream and let's be honest, they couldn't play music to save their lives. I can appreciate what they did for music, but I think artists like Ben Harper appeal to me much more than they do. 262719[/snapback] BF, I dunno. I'm not a big fan of them, because of my age when they were hitting the charts, but what songs I've heard seem ok, and they sure made a lot of folks happy if their huge following is any guide. I'd say they were good entertainers - what's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Yes I have. Meddle is one of my favorite Pink Floyd cds. That would be the type of material you are speaking of yes? 262868[/snapback] Yes. Many Floyd fans consider Echoes to be their finest moment, and that's hardly a basic, concise work. During that whole period I mentioned above, the band did a lot of "jamming". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 "What a long strange trip it's been..."Wow, man...that was really cosmic....And deep too. The band sang about drugs to people who were high to get cheap applause. And musically they were pure GARBAGE 261977[/snapback] It is sad that people can't understand that from some hearing the Dead play is something you can't explain. I truly understand that you don't like their music, and I'm OK with that. Please understand that for those of us who "get it", and really like it there is nothing in the world that can compare. There is a certain engery exchange that happens between the band and their fans. It is truly a special thing, I wish you could feel what I feel. ...and if you think the band sang about drugs you are wrong. I don't deny that a lot of the fans where on them, but the majority of the songs never touch that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 While I won't be as negative as the other poster was, I do have to agree, for the most part they were very overrated. The same thing with Phish. There have been many bands who were far superior to the Dead that came from the same era. Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath just to name a few. 262032[/snapback] Truly subjective statement, nobody can win or lose this agrument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorom Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 Of course Gilmour did extended solos. But not nearly to the extent that the Dead would. I like guitar solos and drums solos, but not a whole show filled with them. 262556[/snapback] Then you never really listened to the Dead. The Dead averages 2.5 - 3.5 hours of music played per show. They averaged 15 - 20 songs per show. Although there jams we're extended and experimental many of them we're just plain and simply fascinating grooves, rhythms and leads. Many people hated the Deads music, or just never gave it a chance. But it is all nothing more then "To each there own" Do people realize how much influence Jerry Garcia had at popularizing Blue Grass music ? Has anyone here listen to the Garcia and Grisman quintet ?? Polar opposite of you'd expect and very highly acclaimed music. I loved the Dead, I loved Phish, I listen to tons of moe., Galactic, Karl Densons Tiny Universe, Greyboy Allstars. all of these are jam bands that play lots of live shows that follow experimentation in in rhythm, groove, funk and leads. I also love equally Neil Young, Led Zeppelin, Black Zabbath, CSNY, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, the doors, Frank Zappa among. I just don't understand the blind hatred, or the need to proclaim one band more superior then the other, or to label Dead fans and Phish fans as drugged out losers. I've done my share of partying on the road, I won't deny that. It was all in good fun. I find it hard to believe anyone here who went to see Clampton, Floyd, Zeppelin or any really good band didn't lubricate themselves with something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BF_in_Indiana Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I don't think the Greatful Dead are a bad band. I enjoy several of their songs and if they were still around I would probably attend a show. Drugs had a great deal to do with the enjoyment of the show for a good portion of the audience however. I type this as I listen to the Wall in it's entirety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doyle Hargraves Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 This is simply not true (musically speaking), especially with phish. Not one of the bands you mentioned (which I love btw) ever incorporated ANY elements of Jazz into their arrangements. Jazz is by far the most complex form of musical understanding and performing that currently exists (involving both improvisation and technical skill). Classical would be a close second (involving technical skill without improvisation). Phish used many jazz elements in both their song structures and "jams". I'll remind you again also , I absolutley love Zep, Floyd , and Sabbath. As far as what YOU like, that is personal preference and nobody can argue with that. 262831[/snapback] OK, let's talk about the Dead and their so-called "jazz".... Their "jazz" consisted of an actual SIPLIFICATION of simple rock chord progressions wth simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords...Over this TRASH, Garcia could make a Dorian scale (Pentatonic plus two notes) work over these fewer and simplified chords and ramble on for hours with their odd facial expressions and tie-dyed shirts. So.... their audience full of acid-tripped imbeciles swayed and cheered to this endless, soul-less, repetitive trash just as they would also stare at a dendelion for hours on end... AND THEY COULD ALL FEEL LIKE THEY WERE "PART OF SOMETHING" Without the drugs both on and in front of the stage, the Dead would be NOTHING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doyle Hargraves Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 Jerry Garcia was a granola breather and he couldn't play guitar to save his life...... 263658[/snapback] ^5 And another over-rated "guitar god" is that Clapton character. Is he actually listening to the other instruments when he puts together a lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 OK, let's talk about the Dead and their so-called "jazz"....Their "jazz" consisted of an actual SIPLIFICATION of simple rock chord progressions wth simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords...Over this TRASH, Garcia could make a Dorian scale (Pentatonic plus two notes) work over these fewer and simplified chords and ramble on for hours with their odd facial expressions and tie-dyed shirts. So.... their audience full of acid-tripped imbeciles swayed and cheered to this endless, soul-less, repetitive trash just as they would also stare at a dendelion for hours on end... AND THEY COULD ALL FEEL LIKE THEY WERE "PART OF SOMETHING" Without the drugs both on and in front of the stage, the Dead would be NOTHING 263583[/snapback] You are clueless dude. The reference was specifically to Phish first off. Reading comprehension helps. Simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords?(Partial bar chord? Interesting concept..) Nice try ... did you pick up your guitar book for that stab in the dark or just dust off your Ingwe Malmstein Tabs? A quick listen of most any '73 or '74 era show or anything off the Blues for Allah album will reveal the jazz elements that pertain to the dead (which again wasn't my main reference). Maybe you missed such examples in many of their songs such as (and this will be boring for non-musicians) : - Altered meter based songs, phrases and jam sections such as 7/8, 11/8, 5/8. - Incorparation of whole tone scalar playing over (non "simplified") major 7/9 chords. - Modal incorporated outside playing - passing from a Dom chord to a minor chord a whole step away by use of a raised diminished scale. - Frequent use of relative keyes amongst all band members -Call and response techniques - Dynamic , reactive playing - Free form percussion based experimentation - Use of "1+2" scales made famous by Jazz greats like Larry Coryell. Sounds a lot like Jazz elements to me ... And notice I didn't even go to Phish, who used 10 fold the Jazz elements that the Dead used. You're barking up the wrong tree man. As many have said if you don't like the stuff, that's fine and respectable but do not try (a feeble attempt as it was) to discredit the musicality that existed among these bands with false claims and when it's very clear that the respected international musical community thinks otherwise. I apologize for a lack of chivalry in this matter but feel free to call it a "sore spot" for me. There are other people out there including many who have yet to make an opinion on performers such as this and they should have the right to here the truth in order to give a fair assessment. Now if you'd like to discuss the "jazz elements" of Phish, let's roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 You are clueless dude. Or perhaps he's just trolling, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 Or perhaps he's just trolling, yes? 263705[/snapback] Oh man If that's the case not only am I jealous of La BillZ but I have become a "victim" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Info Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 OK, let's talk about the Dead and their so-called "jazz"....Their "jazz" consisted of an actual SIPLIFICATION of simple rock chord progressions wth simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords...Over this TRASH, Garcia could make a Dorian scale (Pentatonic plus two notes) work over these fewer and simplified chords and ramble on for hours with their odd facial expressions and tie-dyed shirts. So.... their audience full of acid-tripped imbeciles swayed and cheered to this endless, soul-less, repetitive trash just as they would also stare at a dendelion for hours on end... AND THEY COULD ALL FEEL LIKE THEY WERE "PART OF SOMETHING" Without the drugs both on and in front of the stage, the Dead would be NOTHING 263583[/snapback] It is always refreshing to see someone have a civil and considerate discourse without resorting to gross generalizations or acrimonious discussion. No one "wins" these type of discussions and there are no awards. But, I had a chuckle reading your music theory analysis about the Dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 It is always refreshing to see someone have a civil and considerate discourse without resorting to gross generalizations or acrimonious discussion.No one "wins" these type of discussions and there are no awards. But, I had a chuckle reading your music theory analysis about the Dead. 263711[/snapback] Wait, you forgot the sarcasm qualifier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorom Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 OK, let's talk about the Dead and their so-called "jazz"....Their "jazz" consisted of an actual SIPLIFICATION of simple rock chord progressions wth simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords...Over this TRASH, Garcia could make a Dorian scale (Pentatonic plus two notes) work over these fewer and simplified chords and ramble on for hours with their odd facial expressions and tie-dyed shirts. So.... their audience full of acid-tripped imbeciles swayed and cheered to this endless, soul-less, repetitive trash just as they would also stare at a dendelion for hours on end... AND THEY COULD ALL FEEL LIKE THEY WERE "PART OF SOMETHING" Without the drugs both on and in front of the stage, the Dead would be NOTHING 263583[/snapback] works for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 works for me 263730[/snapback] The drugs or the "dendelion" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2004 Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 OK, let's talk about the Dead and their so-called "jazz"....Their "jazz" consisted of an actual SIPLIFICATION of simple rock chord progressions wth simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords...Over this TRASH, Garcia could make a Dorian scale (Pentatonic plus two notes) work over these fewer and simplified chords and ramble on for hours with their odd facial expressions and tie-dyed shirts. So.... their audience full of acid-tripped imbeciles swayed and cheered to this endless, soul-less, repetitive trash just as they would also stare at a dendelion for hours on end... AND THEY COULD ALL FEEL LIKE THEY WERE "PART OF SOMETHING" Without the drugs both on and in front of the stage, the Dead would be NOTHING 263583[/snapback] Sorry got to post it but your ignornace can't be overlooked. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. By the way, I'm not a "druggie" and I'm sure a lot of others aren't "druggies" either who listen to their music. They listen to it because it is good music. Why does it matter what music others listen too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macdaddy Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 As long as we're being obnoxiously subjective...... My favorite beer is Molsen Canadian..... I lake big boned women..... I wipe my rear with my right hand..... Any comments on my personal preference on any of the above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doyle Hargraves Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 You are clueless dude. The reference was specifically to Phish first off. Reading comprehension helps. Simplified 9th and 7th partial bar chords?(Partial bar chord? Interesting concept..) Nice try ... did you pick up your guitar book for that stab in the dark or just dust off your Ingwe Malmstein Tabs? A quick listen of most any '73 or '74 era show or anything off the Blues for Allah album will reveal the jazz elements that pertain to the dead (which again wasn't my main reference). Maybe you missed such examples in many of their songs such as (and this will be boring for non-musicians) : - Altered meter based songs, phrases and jam sections such as 7/8, 11/8, 5/8. - Incorparation of whole tone scalar playing over (non "simplified") major 7/9 chords. - Modal incorporated outside playing - passing from a Dom chord to a minor chord a whole step away by use of a raised diminished scale. - Frequent use of relative keyes amongst all band members -Call and response techniques - Dynamic , reactive playing - Free form percussion based experimentation - Use of "1+2" scales made famous by Jazz greats like Larry Coryell. Sounds a lot like Jazz elements to me ... And notice I didn't even go to Phish, who used 10 fold the Jazz elements that the Dead used. You're barking up the wrong tree man. As many have said if you don't like the stuff, that's fine and respectable but do not try (a feeble attempt as it was) to discredit the musicality that existed among these bands with false claims and when it's very clear that the respected international musical community thinks otherwise. I apologize for a lack of chivalry in this matter but feel free to call it a "sore spot" for me. There are other people out there including many who have yet to make an opinion on performers such as this and they should have the right to here the truth in order to give a fair assessment. Now if you'd like to discuss the "jazz elements" of Phish, let's roll. 263703[/snapback] Sorry, I mis-spoke when I called them "partial bar chords". I meant to call them "small chord voicings" And you are the type who likes to read guitar mags, but you can't play your way out of a paper bag. People like you grow tired of your own playing and turn to "jazz" because you think it is cool and nobody but other jazz "musicians" can actually appreciate that souless, droning crap. If someone says they don't like jazz, you get all snobby and write them off as "not having an ear for it". Well I don't like jazz. I say Stanley Jordan on TV a few years back and heard him do Stairway to Heaven. I ran out and bought the Stolen Moments cassette. Well, I quicky learned that his Stairway to Heaven ws a divation from his usual "work" (souless, droning jazz crap). I got some scotch tape and taped a tab on that little hole and erased the rest of the tape. You want to hear some real music...Where I guy knows how to EXPRESS himself with a GD guitar? Pick up some Magic Slim, Some Tinsley Ellis, Roy Buchannan, Alvert King,Indigenous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doyle Hargraves Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 "I lake big boned women....." I hate to burst your bubble, but do those women with the big "bones" also have big feet and adams apples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorom Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 The drugs or the "dendelion" ? 263734[/snapback] yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts