Jonas Jennings, Left Guard Position

[Bill from NYC]

While thinking about the JJ contract situation, it occured to me that JJ has never lined up next to a very good player.

 

Imo Tucker, due to coaching and effort, wound up somewhere around average at LG. When JJ played RT, it was a given that the RG sucked, whereas the Bills, before CV, have not had a good RG on the roster in 10 years. We did see how much MW improved while playing next to a proven skilled vet.

 

Looking at the NFC East, I think it is very important for the Bills to strengthen the LG and OC positions. Our opponents have monsters in the middle of their DLs, such as Robertson, Wilfork and Seymour which mandates the Bills to get better inside. Remember when Parcells claimed that he signed Mawae (sic) at OC because of Ted Washington? Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

If JJ opts out of Buffalo, I obviously hope that TD pursues a "big name" LT, but I would not be surprised to see FA money go toward the OC and LG positions, with Teague moving outside to LT.

Can TT handle LT? Before McNally, I would have guessed no, but if the coaches like the move, and the Bills can bring in a quality LG, it might be a possibility.

 

The good news is that I can remember many seasons where the entire OL sucked except Ruben Brown. Now, the Bills have more talent, better coaching, and less spots to fill in order to field a strong, solid OL. Jmo.

[Navy Chief Navy Pride]

Please tell me how we sign a big LT and OC and still resign big Pat.

Not to mention a backup QB and RB. Wheres the money tree?

[Bill from NYC]

Please tell me how we sign a big LT and OC and still resign big Pat.

Not to mention a backup QB and RB. Wheres the money tree?

224749[/snapback]

 

I can only try.

 

A "name" LT would have to get a big signing bonus spread out over a long term deal to make the cap hit possible. An OC would not cost as much.

 

If I understand the cap correctly, the Bills would save approx. 2.5 mil by cutting Drew. If they do not cut him, they dont need a backup qb, right? Amos Zeroue is a ufa who would probably cost less than 1 mil per season, and rbs shouldn't be too tough to find in the draft.

 

As for PW, I have mixed emotions. He is not young, and he probably weighs close to 400 lbs. He IS good, but I dont know how long he can keep it up, especially after seeing him come off the field quite a bit for substitutions in 04. Also, Robertson is a player who imo is improving.

Yeah, I would like for PW to stay on the team, but it depends on the price, and the length of the deal.

[Typical TBD Guy]

I can only try. 

 

A "name" LT would have to get a big signing bonus spread out over a long term deal to make the cap hit possible. An OC would not cost as much.

 

If I understand the cap correctly, the Bills would save approx. 2.5 mil by cutting Drew. If they do not cut him, they dont need a backup qb, right? Amos Zeroue is a ufa who would probably cost less than 1 mil per season, and rbs shouldn't be too tough to find in the draft.

 

As for PW, I have mixed emotions. He is not young, and he probably weighs close to 400 lbs. He IS good, but I dont know how long he can keep it up, especially after seeing him come off the field quite a bit for substitutions in 04. Also, Robertson is a player who imo is improving.

Yeah, I would like for PW to stay on the team, but it depends on the price, and the length of the deal.

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The real uncertainty with resigning Pat is Minnesota. That team has a lot of money that can be wrecklessly thrown his way (a la Winfield), and the Cottrell connection can't help.

 

As for O-line, call me conservative but I'd rather stick with JJ and Teague (and sign a free agent LG) than get a marquee LT and a bigger C. I don't doubt that we could afford such upgrades, but some of that cap space needs to go towards extending Clements and McGee.

 

Here's my complete need list for free agency:

 

K (no freaking clue...Christie??? )

starting LG (plenty of good ones to choose from)

starting TE (Freddie Jones?)

backup QB (Kordella?... only if Bledsoe doesn't take pay cut)

backup RB (Amos Zeroue would be good...assuming TH is traded)

third WR (Peerless??? )

Jonas Jennings

Pat Williams

Nate Clements (extension)

Terrence McGee (extension)

[Ray]

I am very hesitant to pay 7-8M/yr for a LT--even the so called "studs" Remember Schobel has competed very well against these so-called stud lineman (Ogden etc..) The Pats have no "stud" lineman but have only managed to run the ball down teams' throats--including Pittsburgh and the Bills. Both teams with great D-lines. No lineman on that team was higher than a 2nd round pick. Point being I think you can get Olinmean for a reasonable price and not have to break the bank to get one for a 12-15 M signing bonus.

[Bill from NYC]

The real uncertainty with resigning Pat is Minnesota. That team has a lot of money that can be wrecklessly thrown his way (a la Winfield), and the Cottrell connection can't help.

 

As for O-line, call me conservative but I'd rather stick with JJ and Teague (and sign a free agent LG) than get a marquee LT and a bigger C. I don't doubt that we could afford such upgrades, but some of that cap space needs to go towards extending Clements and McGee.

 

Here's my complete need list for free agency:

 

K (no freaking clue...Christie???  )

starting LG (plenty of good ones to choose from)

starting TE (Freddie Jones?)

backup QB (Kordella?... only if Bledsoe doesn't take pay cut)

backup RB (Amos Zeroue would be good...assuming TH is traded)

third WR (Peerless???  )

Jonas Jennings

Pat Williams

Nate Clements (extension)

Terrence McGee (extension)

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I would be fine with your list IF Jennings is paid 5 mil or below (in terms of average salary for the length of the contract) and you substitute Fiedler for Kordell.

Please, not Kordell!

Also, are you happy with TT at OC? I am not saying he is bad, but he, given our opponents, seems a bit too small.

[Tom]

Please tell me how we sign a big LT and OC and still resign big Pat.

Not to mention a backup QB and RB. Wheres the money tree?

224749[/snapback]

MMMmmmmmmmmmm....... Jests a managing to do it.

I guess we need to be creative.

[shoveldog]

I would be fine with your list IF Jennings is paid 5 mil or below (in terms of average salary for the length of the contract) and you substitute Fiedler for Kordell.

Please, not Kordell!

Also, are you happy with TT at OC? I am not saying he is bad, but he, given our opponents, seems a bit too small.

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TT bulked up to over 300lbs this year... Small????? TT was clearly our best OL'man this year. You can see that the middle got a whole lot stronger when we finally put a servicable guy at LG (Tucker.)

 

For those of you who have never played OL, you cannot be good with a weak player next to you.... Period! I don't care how good you really are, if there is a weak link next to you, it will be exploited. TT often found himself trying to do more than "his job." He had no choice. It made him look bad too.

 

Playing C is more about quickness and smarts than bulky physical play. Someone mentioned Mawae (sp?.) He is not a big guy. But he has great hands, great leverage and is VERY smart on the field.

 

As far as Tucker is concerned... give the guy props. He did a very solid job. Personally, I like the kid at LG. If a better LG became available, I'd take him and move Tucker back to #1 depth at G/C, but I still think the kid is a solid OL'man who really stepped it up this year when called upon. Some here have him written off as a MUST replace... why?

[Bill from NYC]

TT bulked up to over 300lbs this year... Small????? TT was clearly our best OL'man this year. You can see that the middle got a whole lot stronger when we finally put a servicable guy at LG (Tucker.)

 

For those of you who have never played OL, you cannot be good with a weak player next to you.... Period! I don't care how good you really are, if there is a weak link next to you, it will be exploited. TT often found himself trying to do more than "his job." He had no choice. It made him look bad too.

 

Playing C is more about quickness and smarts than bulky physical play. Someone mentioned Mawae (sp?.) He is not a big guy. But he has great hands, great leverage and is VERY smart on the field.

 

As far as Tucker is concerned... give the guy props. He did a very solid job. Personally, I like the kid at LG. If a better LG became available, I'd take him and move Tucker back to #1 depth at G/C, but I still think the kid is a solid OL'man who really stepped it up this year when called upon. Some here have him written off as a MUST replace... why?

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Good post. I tried to make clear that imo, Tucker improved, and there is no reason to not expect further improvement.

I partially disagree with you wrt Teague. Imo, the biggest difference maker on the Bills OL was CV. He may not be much bigger than TT, but from where I sit he plays a tougher game. MWs game clearly declined when CV was hurt, which proves what you said about weak links being exploited.

I see TT as more suited to be a LT because of his agility, and seems to lack the brute strength that I like in a guard.

[d_wag]

As far as Tucker is concerned... give the guy props.  He did a very solid job.  Personally, I like the kid at LG.  If a better LG became available, I'd take him and move Tucker back to #1 depth at G/C, but I still think the kid is a solid OL'man who really stepped it up this year when called upon.  Some here have him written off as a MUST replace... why?

 

 

i think it is widely accepted we need to improve o-line.......

 

so what are the options??

 

throw out RT and RG because those spots are fixed.......

 

IMO, teague isn't going anywhere and will stay at center, where he is finally picking up the position and playing his best ball.......

 

i still hold out hope that jennings will return in '05, and if not, i seriously doubt we will UPGRADE the position.......

 

so all that leaves is LG and that makes tucker, who was solid but not great in '04, very upgradeable........

 

i think improvements will come by just keeping the core of the group together for another season (a big reason why i want jennings back), but we defantiely need to upgrade our talent level overall, and the only place i see to do that (when looking at the cap and all the factors) is at LG, where tucker is just decent and on a very "backup" friendly contract (unlike teague).......

[34-78-83]

Good thread Bill.... I like the idea of seeing how TT would fare at tackle , and that's probably something they would look at if Jonas left. My hope though is that Jonas stays and we keep continuity at Center with TT. I definitely agree that LG needs an upgrade badly, either way. I'm definitely not on board with the idea of Amos Z as a backup RB... He is merely a scat back/ third down type who's recent stats are entirely misleading due to lots of runs on third and long. etc. He has zero abilty to break tackles as well.

[John from Riverside]

I personally think that Marcus Price has shown very well when he got the opportunities at Left Tackle.....

 

If you started him...and then went out and got a quality Left Guard to play next to him....then drafted a "in the wings" replacement in the draft I think we would make out ok....

 

I still Want Jennings....but not for superstar money...we MUST improve our Left Guard position

[shibuya]

Please tell me how we sign a big LT and OC and still resign big Pat.

Not to mention a backup QB and RB. Wheres the money tree?

224749[/snapback]

 

 

backup QB and backup RB won't cost alot.

 

We will have somewhere between 13 - 16 million to play with this year, and no 1st rd draft pick to sign. IMO we will be able to do it all with 4-6 year deals bonus money up front and small base salaries for this year.

 

There are alot of quality OG's to sign via FA, so a good deal can be found. Jonas could end up being the 3rd best LT on the market behind Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, which means Jonas may be more affordable then some people fear. Many of the teams who have the cash to spend have there LT position set, or have other more pressing needs.

 

Pat Williams has mentioned he wants to remain a Bill and would give the Bills a discount as long as thier offer was fair.

 

I think we are in good shape this year.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Cliff notes: sorry no cliff notes as I was simply thinking out loud about the OL. I had fun and invite any interested in my or these ramblings to follow along. The end product of this thinking was a lot more comfort on my part in givng a $5 million annual contract to JJ (though I would not be shocked to see the market offer him no more than $3 million annually) and uf this happens then it is quite likely the Bills will see no need to buy or draft any OL players this year. I may be wrong because really who knows Cliff notes end.

 

 

Again I would say that I certainly agree with the many posters who have identified improvement of the OL as a necessity for this team to get better. However, though i expect a significant part of our very nice but not huge salary cap stake to be spent getting a good OL player (particularly if the market allows JJ to go elsewhere). I will not be shocked if we make NO BIG OL FA purchase.

 

I think the Bills got much better performance out of the OL in 04 because:

 

1. JMac is an adult at the OL coach position while Vinky and Ruel were simply not ready for primetime at this position.

 

Larry Felser constantly pointed out that when you look at the past SB winners they averaged 10 years or so in experience for the OL position coaches and that Vinky got the job because he was a buddy of GW who had been around the league for a while but had ZERO OL position coach experience when he took the job. After 2 years they upgraded(?) to Ruel who had all of 1 year experience as OL coach with Detroit.

 

JMac has well over a dozen years of OL position coach experience and made something out of very little in NYG molding this Dusty Ziegler led unit into an SB level team. It may not happen and we would probably profit from having more talented OL players, but it is not unreasonable at all that the Bills might make the judgment that JMac can squeeze the same (or dare I even say it) or greater improvement out of essentially the same players in a second year with them and we essentially stand pat if the FA market for JJ allows us to do so.

 

2. We ran a far more unpredictable offense under Clements than Kevin Killdrive.

 

One of the main reasons for the Bills O failure last year and in particular from the mid-point of the season on was that Kevin Killdrive doggedly stuck with "his" way of doing things and refused to run a difficult to predict diversified offense. Once it became clear to opponents how pass-happy we were (part of this was DB's fault as I think he had an athlete's confidence in his arm that even on 3rd and 2 yards or less, Killdrive called too many pass plays and when he did call a run, DB would see some irresisitable opportunity and audible out of the run to a pass) they simply blitzed and blitzed some more because there was little need for them to worry about the run call.

 

Clements did a great job with his game calls because he ran so many trick plays and odd plays that we essentially could not be predicted. This led to blitzers hanging back to diagnose the play before launching an attack or blitzing but not selling out on the blitz because we might run WM around the end, might go to a quick pass. or might even do a totally shocking thing and run Bledsoe on the QB draw and this uncertainty helped the OL and sack count alot.

 

I will not be shocked if our 05 OL is:

 

1. RT- MW sticks with this position and JMac and the Bills try to build upon his improvement after his attitude got adjusted after he no-showed at the "voluntary" mini-camps and put on a bunch of weight. IF (and there is no certainty so it is an IF) he continues with the same rate of improvement we saw last year he can easily complete 05 being the OL player we expected and demanded from a #4 choice.

2. RG- Villarial is a JMac kind of guy (he chose him and he chose us in FA). One critical penalty on him early in the season was really the only fault in his game last year and even that penalty may well have been a phantom call by the refs. We showed great confidence in him by having no one behind him on the depth chart and he delivered by not getting hurt and playing virtually flawlessly. One big impact of having him around was that MW was overmatched simply being a professional in his 3rd year as a Bill and Vinky and Ruel had foolishly asked him to carry the even less experienced Pacillo at RG. Its no womder two of them were looking at each other in confusion as Bledsoe lay on the ground after getting sacked by two lesser players but vet DL opponents who had run some kind of stunt MW and Pacillo had never seen. Though he played virtually flawless ball later in the season, we can reasonably hope for improvement from Villarial because now that he has played in our O and been a Bill for a year, this vet can though even better chemistry with MW make the right side of our OL a force to be reckoned with on the rush and not a concern at all in pass pro.

C- Teague is generally regarded as having had a very good year and through a good brain which he has always had become a true leader of the OL. 04 was not perfect for him as he missed several games to injury and the memory of him getting put on his backside too often in 03 still is there. However, I think his problem in the past was not physical ability as he has consistently shown me that he is a good athlete for an OL player and I have little problem with him being undersized because he has player for Denver and now JMac in a schme where an undersized OL player can still be very effective. I think that his past problems which cannot be denied by a careful watcher were actually from a difficulty in multi-taking rather than from him simply being undersized or not good enough. He had to learn to make line calls as a C, learn to do the occaisional shotgun snap (a real adventure when he started and thank gosh that Bledsoe was a great ballhandler dealing with inconsistent snaps though I think even this hurt Bledsoe in dealing with the blitz as he often had to focus so much on receiving the snap he did not see changes the D was making, and still do his fundamental job of physically handling DTs who were getting bigger and bigger. Teague has the potential to really improve his game by remaining healthy a full season (fortunately he has shown he is a good healer after getting wiped out in Denver but recovering and getting wiped out in mid-season last year but recovering his effectiveness as shown in the winning streak. If he shows the same level of improvement and can remain healthy he will be a C we are proud of (which after Kent Hull takes alot).

LG- As flks correctly diagnosed this is a big player wildcard, though actually I think many posters are panicking a bit in the assumption that we MUST find a new player at LG in FA or the draft.

 

First, particularly if we are breaking in a new LT if we lose JJ then it unfortunately becomes more critical that we get a vet to play LG. Any new LT will be learning the position or the at least the team and adding the extra burden of teaching and/or carrying a rookie, even a talented one like a Baas is a bit much to ask and exect the production we want.

 

I see the Bills with two realistic internal options at LG. First, is the longer shot that though Smith was inadequate at RG last year, you gotta put that in context of how far he came. He went from being on the PS of a different team in '03 to being a starter on the Bills in '04 and this is simply and outrageous jump in level by a player. It is not unreasonable to hope for a young player to have the same level of improvement in one year that he had the year before. If Smith were to replicate his level of improvment from PS on squad to starter on another in 05 I'm not sure what the equivalence is, but he would be a near or definite Pro Bowl level player! I actually do not expect this level of continuous improvement as it would even be more outrageous than last year's jump (it would have been a good year for him to merely make another squad and be an active back-up much less a starter). However, I do not think that folks should write off Smith as a failed experiment. He had two relatively specific problems which forced him to the bench as the season drew to a close and Tucker replaced him: 1. He oddly showed bigger problems in run blocking rather than the not bad performance he had in pass pro. Usually it is the other way around and blockers have to master the pass pro part of the game where they must react and the stakes are high (the QB's health) rather than run blocking which the blocker like because they are pro-acti9ve and dictate the point of attack. Do not be shocked if Smith is diligent in working out to cut his body fat in the off-season and to watch a lot of film to really learn the Clements game that he may honestly challenge for the LG slot.

 

The second option has even a better chance of working as Tucker, being a Princeton grad has proved to be a bright boy capable of playing C well as he back-up Teague last year during the injury and he even came into this league as a tackle. He should be up to improving his game even more and mastering the LG spot, though I actually would feel more secure if Smith took the spot and Tucker could give us a quality back-up at both guard positions and the center position.

 

LT- This is the big FA wildcard. Up until thinking out loud (or in photons) in this post I have actually been an advocate of letting JJ go because I though I think he is a solid player, I don't think he merits franchise or even transition OL money ($7 million a year or $6 million a year). I actually think that the high salaries which LTs have commanded paradoxically does not mean we will have to pay through the nose for JJ (we might but shouldn't because all it takes is for one idiot to overspend on him to make him too expensive to sign) but in fact means now that there will be limited demand for LTs because teams have already committed to long-term big contracts to LTs (8 of the top 10 OL cap hits) and even lesser talented players like Clifton and Pettigout have gotten long-term $5 million contracts which take their teams out of the LT market.

 

Add into that better LTs than Jennings with clear records of better performance (like Pro Bowl recognition) or playing the whole season (which JJ has never done in his career like Jones, Pace and Tra Thomas apparently will be on the market, I was happy to see the Bills only sign JJ if we could get him for a lower cap hit than we were paying Teague ($2.6 million) who i see as a likely candidate to move to LT if we can't re-sgn JJ. In fact the highest cap hit on the OL in 05 will be MW whose cap hit of about $6 million is really LT money..

 

The market may be such that though their will be offers to JJ that are more money than he has ever seen before, he will actually be offered much less than LTs have recently gotten. AT for example would be an obvious place for him to go, but they will need to cut people it seems merely to make the cap after FA signings like Peerless and giving a $100 million to Vick. The Vikes for example are on of the teams with big cap room, but they are committed to McKinnie contractually and will not make a big offer to Jennings most likely with their big cap cushion. I was happy to see the Bills push JJ to the wall and potentially make a $2.6 million dollar deal the best he could do (what a booby prize).

 

Despite my thanks but not thanks ranting about JJ I actually after thinking things through in this post I am actually happier for the Bills to sign him to a big buck offer. If JJ were to resign, I hope and expect great things from him and his LG mate as he has played with both Tucker and Smith before. If we resign JJ for the $5 million I am now willing to see us spend on him, i actually feel quite comfortable with us also resigning Price to a hefty but not huge deal to back-up both tackle slots for us.

 

If we resign JJ I do not see us making any new OL acquisitions as I feel quite comfortable that JMac will get even better performance out on an OL which features JJ,Smith,Teague,Villarial and MW and has Price backing up both tackles, Tucker backing up all the interior lines slots, and behind these 7 some combination of projects and deep deep back-ups from McFarland, Peters, Pruce, Espositio and Pucillo.

There are alot of variables caused by FA, but don't be surprised if we don;t draft or pick-up an FA OL guy if we resign JJ.

[1billsfan]

I think that Jason Peters becomes a starting offensive lineman sometime during the 05 season. Where? I couldn't tell you. It's just a hunch. Dude is big, athletic and already provided some very good blocks in his rookie season. JP will not be the only member of the offense we're hoping has a quick learning curve.

[Bill from NYC]

>>>>>There are alot of variables caused by FA, but don't be surprised if we don;t draft or pick-up an FA OL guy if we resign JJ.<<<<

 

Imo, this would be a huge mistake.

First of all, the Bills will have cap room. Where do you think they should spend it if not OL? If the Bills do not sign a free agent OG, I would expect them to draft one with their first selection.

This is a good idea in and of itself, but sadly, I think that the Bills will draft a cb with their first selection, where the need is almost at a crisis level because of the NC contract status and the fact that MaGee returns kicks.

 

Once again, Jennings, next to a superior LG, would be an even better player.

I can see no reason to pass up this chance to upgrade this position.

 

PS: If Smith is as good as you think he is, he could conceivably bring us something in a trade.