peterpan Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Team sport, yeah but Flacco has had better play in the post season than Ryan and Ryan has equal or probably better offensive weapons. Flacco has better stats, and less turnovers, directly correlating to wins. Is this discussion only regarding post-season performances or does regular season count too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Its unfair to count a QBs accomplishments that happened before Ryan was even in the league. What is your time frame for determining the rankings of QBs? The last year? The last 3 years? Lets say the last 3 years for the sake of argument.. Rodgers, Eli and Flacco won superbowls. So would you put all of those guys ahead of Ryan because of that? In the last 3 years... Eli: 86 TDs, 56 INTs, 61.5% comp% Ryan: 88 TDs, 35 INTs, 64.1% comp% Ryan has brought his team to the playoffs 3 times, Eli only 1 time. I'd rather have Ryan on my team right now. Roethlisberger: 65 TDs, 27 INTs, 62.7% comp% Ryan: 88 TDs, 35 INTs, 64.1% comp% Roethlisberger has missed 8 games in the last 3 years, Ryan has missed 0. Roethlisberger has had 2 playoff appearances with a 2-2 record in the last 3 years, Ryan has 3 appearances with a 1-3 record. Based on his durability and better production, I'd rather have Ryan right now. Obviously Brady and Bree's are ranked ahead of Ryan, you could argue against Peyton if you're looking at the last 3 years, but because of his production when he has played I'm going to rank him ahead of him. Based on everything I just said, this would be my ranking: 1. Rodgers 2. Brady 3. P Manning 4. Brees 5. Flacco 6. Ryan 7. Roethlisberger 8. E Manning Who else would you put ahead of Ryan and why? You don't rank based on the last 3 years. It's based on the careers of everyone still playing. That's how all rankings are done. Why would you ignore what someone else has done already? Rodgers didn't make the playoffs, shouldn't he be less than Ryan in your "system" of analysis. I did last year alone, and careers of everyone in the league. That's how it's always done, or Peyton wouldn't be in the top 5 after missing a full year. C'mon now. I gave you my list earlier in the topic, you can check it out. Is this discussion only regarding post-season performances or does regular season count too? Regular season counts, but I'd rather win 3 playoff games and the Superbowl than have a 16-0 record and be eliminated in the first round. So post season performance counts more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Post #16. Yes. Arguably Ryan has the best receiving weapons in all of football. You have to think that having Roddy White, Julio Jones, and Tony Gonzales to throw to would significantly boost the passing stats of most QBs. Ryan does have great receivers no doubt. But if you watch Atl games (and not saying you do not) Ryan puts the ball so often where only hig guy can get it. The Falcons run game was pretty weak this season and Ryan took over games knowing they had to win through the air. It became a huge topic in Atl this year how awful the short yardage run game was. Eventually the best third and short option was Gonzalez 'posting up' and Ryan putting the ball just in the right spot. Gonzalez will come back i think. The Falcons need to address RB in FA or draft and need a couple guys on D,(DE, CB, and LB). They should be right back in the mix next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 You don't rank based on the last 3 years. It's based on the careers of everyone still playing. That's how all rankings are done. Why would you ignore what someone else has done already? Rodgers didn't make the playoffs, shouldn't he be less than Ryan in your "system" of analysis. I did last year alone, and careers of everyone in the league. That's how it's always done, or Peyton wouldn't be in the top 5 after missing a full year. C'mon now. I gave you my list earlier in the topic, you can check it out. It makes absolutely no sense to count the entire careers of the QBs you are ranking.. we arent talking about the all time best QBs, we're talking about the current best QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 It makes absolutely no sense to count the entire careers of the QBs you are ranking.. we arent talking about the all time best QBs, we're talking about the current best QBs. We are talking about the best QB's playing. Or else Flacco should be number one after winning the Superbowl. Because Brady, Manning and Rodgers have all proved themselves, that makes them better than Ryan, who has not. Or else why would they be higher than him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 We are talking about the best QB's playing. Or else Flacco should be number one after winning the Superbowl. Because Brady, Manning and Rodgers have all proved themselves, that makes them better than Ryan, who has not. Or else why would they be higher than him? Brady, Manning and Rodgers are ahead of Ryan because over the last 3 years they have played better than Ryan. In the past 3 years, neither Eli Manning nor Ben Roethlisberger have played better than Ryan, so right now, Ryan is the better quarterback. I dont know whats so hard to follow about that logic. Flacco isnt #1 because football is a team sport and just because 1 team is better than another, doesnt mean that team's Qb is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Comparing a QBs completion % when he plays his 8 home games in a dome and 3 road games in NO, Charlotte, and TB to those of QBs that play outdoors in the northeast is not sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Brady, Manning and Rodgers are ahead of Ryan because over the last 3 years they have played better than Ryan. In the past 3 years, neither Eli Manning nor Ben Roethlisberger have played better than Ryan, so right now, Ryan is the better quarterback. I dont know whats so hard to follow about that logic. Flacco isnt #1 because football is a team sport and just because 1 team is better than another, doesnt mean that team's Qb is better. Well, I think every sports group on the planet disagrees with you. I've never seen someone ignore past accomplishments when comparing QB's or else consistency wouldn't even be considered. Edited February 28, 2013 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well, I think every sports group on the planet disagrees with you. I've never seen someone ignore past accomplishments when comparing QB's or else consistency wouldn't even be considered. Tom Brady wont be the same player when he's 40 as he was when he was 28. Just because a player was once great, doesnt mean they wont deteriorate. So if you were ranking RBs right now, would you put Steven Jackson in your top 5? No.. you wouldnt because he isn't as talented as he was when he was 25. Even though he's the active career leader in rushing yards, he isnt in the top 5 or probably even the top 10 anymore. The same goes for QBs. If you're ranking the current best QB, than you're ranking them on their current merits, not their past ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Stats don't lie..... Sweet irony, I know you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ryan is probably in the 6-8 territory but he and Flacco are younger than the others so you take that into account too. Those two are probably still getting better whereas guys like Big Ben, Peyton, etc are most likely on the downsides of their careers. In the real world, these rankings are fluid and dynamic and 8 months from now we might witness an obvious point where one player's career curve intersects with another's, heading in different directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 Tom Brady wont be the same player when he's 40 as he was when he was 28. Just because a player was once great, doesnt mean they wont deteriorate. So if you were ranking RBs right now, would you put Steven Jackson in your top 5? No.. you wouldnt because he isn't as talented as he was when he was 25. Even though he's the active career leader in rushing yards, he isnt in the top 5 or probably even the top 10 anymore. The same goes for QBs. If you're ranking the current best QB, than you're ranking them on their current merits, not their past ones. When Tom Brady starts playing worse, he'll be ranked worse. When he's out of the league, he won't be ranked at all. He's playing at a higher level than Matt Ryan and has done more than Matt Ryan. That's why Tom is ranked higher than Peyton, past accomplishments are included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Maybe they're using the same calculator that led them to conclude Buddy Nix is a top 5 GM and Dave Wannstedt would easily put a top 10 or even top 5 defense on the field in 2012? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 When Tom Brady starts playing worse, he'll be ranked worse. When he's out of the league, he won't be ranked at all. He's playing at a higher level than Matt Ryan and has done more than Matt Ryan. That's why Tom is ranked higher than Peyton, past accomplishments are included. So kind of like how Eli and Big Ben have been playing worse, they should be ranked worse than Ryan? You're contradicting yourself now. No comment on Steven Jackson? Obviously Brady is ahead of Ryan, I was just using him as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) So kind of like how Eli and Big Ben have been playing worse, they should be ranked worse than Ryan? You're contradicting yourself now. No comment on Steven Jackson? Obviously Brady is ahead of Ryan, I was just using him as an example. But their history is why they are ranked higher. I didn't say if Brady had a bad year or two he'd be ranked 32, he'd just move higher on the list, maybe above or below Ryan. Steven Jackson hasn't been playing nearly as well as he used to. Along with no real accomplishments or relevance in the post season, why would he ever rank high? Eli won the Superbowl last year with tremendous play, won it in 2007 with tremendous play, 1 year of so-so play doesn't abolish that. I'm not gonna argue on how I, ESPN, NFL.com and every other poster does the ranking system, it's just the way it is. Maybe it's unfair to Ryan to place him behind people who did great things a year or two before he was in the league, but it'd be unfair to them to disregard everything they did earlier for one guy. Russell Wilson would be top 5 if we just counted the years he's been in the league. That's why you have to go by career. Edited March 1, 2013 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 One way of ranking QBs--or any player, really--is to ask the following question. If you had to pick a QB for the upcoming season, which would you expect to play the best? Whoever that is is your top-rated QB. My expectation is that Peyton Manning won't deliver one of the five best performances in the 2013 season, which means he's no longer a top-5 QB on my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 But their history is why they are ranked higher. I didn't say if Brady had a bad year or two he'd be ranked 32, he'd just move higher on the list, maybe above or below Ryan. Steven Jackson hasn't been playing nearly as well as he used to. Along with no real accomplishments or relevance in the post season, why would he ever rank high? Eli won the Superbowl last year with tremendous play, won it in 2007 with tremendous play, 1 year of so-so play doesn't abolish that. I'm not gonna argue on how I, ESPN, NFL.com and every other poster does the ranking system, it's just the way it is. Maybe it's unfair to Ryan to place him behind people who did great things a year or two before he was in the league, but it'd be unfair to them to disregard everything they did earlier for one guy. Russell Wilson would be top 5 if we just counted the years he's been in the league. That's why you have to go by career. But their history is why they are ranked higher. I didn't say if Brady had a bad year or two he'd be ranked 32, he'd just move higher on the list, maybe above or below Ryan. Steven Jackson hasn't been playing nearly as well as he used to. Along with no real accomplishments or relevance in the post season, why would he ever rank high? Eli won the Superbowl last year with tremendous play, won it in 2007 with tremendous play, 1 year of so-so play doesn't abolish that. I'm not gonna argue on how I, ESPN, NFL.com and every other poster does the ranking system, it's just the way it is. Maybe it's unfair to Ryan to place him behind people who did great things a year or two before he was in the league, but it'd be unfair to them to disregard everything they did earlier for one guy. Russell Wilson would be top 5 if we just counted the years he's been in the league. That's why you have to go by career. So who is your top running back in the league? 99% of the NFL world would say Adrian Peterson even though he's never really had post season success and has always been on mediocre teams. Steven Jackson was a top 5 back 3 or 4 years ago, and now he isnt. One way of ranking QBs--or any player, really--is to ask the following question. If you had to pick a QB for the upcoming season, which would you expect to play the best? Whoever that is is your top-rated QB. My expectation is that Peyton Manning won't deliver one of the five best performances in the 2013 season, which means he's no longer a top-5 QB on my list. This is a great point, and the exact reason why I have Ryan ranked in my top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) So who is your top running back in the league? 99% of the NFL world would say Adrian Peterson even though he's never really had post season success and has always been on mediocre teams. Steven Jackson was a top 5 back 3 or 4 years ago, and now he isnt. This is a great point, and the exact reason why I have Ryan ranked in my top 6. It's not just about post-season success, I've said this 16 times. AP plays leagues better than Steven Jackson. It's a conglomeration. Besides, you and I both know that wins and losses ride more on QB's than RB's, it's a silly comparison. QB's take the credit and the blame in almost every case. If Peyton puts up numbers exactly the same as Ryan next year, he'd rank higher because of his other accomplishments. That's how it works. If Peyton played like Mark Sanche next year, he wouldn't rank as high as Matt Ryan. Success and failure act more as a way to tip the scales, normally the top 4-5 put up almost identical numbers. It's why Tom Brady always ranks 1st. He may not have the highest in every category of play, but because of his history. How do you not get that? Your comparison is silly because not one QB has experienced the same decline as Steven Jackson. Peyton didn't have an awful year that's why he's still top 5. I see you ignored my Russel Wilson comment. He's a top 5 QB in your eyes right? Because it'd be unfair to rank people who've had more time playing, right? Edited March 1, 2013 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsrhody Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 It's not just about post-season success, I've said this 16 times. AP plays leagues better than Steven Jackson. It's a conglomeration. Besides, you and I both know that wins and losses ride more on QB's than RB's, it's a silly comparison. QB's take the credit and the blame in almost every case. If Peyton puts up numbers exactly the same as Ryan next year, he'd rank higher because of his other accomplishments. That's how it works. If Peyton played like Mark Sanche next year, he wouldn't rank as high as Matt Ryan. Success and failure act more as a way to tip the scales, normally the top 4-5 put up almost identical numbers. It's why Tom Brady always ranks 1st. He may not have the highest in every category of play, but because of his history. How do you not get that? Your comparison is silly because not one QB has experienced the same decline as Steven Jackson. Peyton didn't have an awful year that's why he's still top 5. I see you ignored my Russel Wilson comment. He's a top 5 QB in your eyes right? Because it'd be unfair to rank people who've had more time playing, right? My argument isn't silly because Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Phillip Rivers did see a decline similar to Steven Jackson and thats why I rank them lower than Ryan. You dont need to keep basing your arguments around Peyton and Brady.. I already have them ranked ahead of Ryan. Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, Brees, Eli(interchangeably, not looking up the stats) Big Ben, Flacco, Newton, Rivers, Cutler/Ryan Thats your list from earlier.. why dont you try to make a case for the guys you have ranked ahead of Ryan that I dont? I think having Newton, Rivers and Cutler ahead of him is ridiculous. If we're talking about Russell Wilson, Ryan had a better year than him. Ryan had a 4 point better comp%, 6 more TDs, (4 more INTs) and 1,600 more yards. Wilson had 489 yds and 4 TDs on the ground, Ryan had 141 yds and 1 TD. Not to mention the fact that Ryan led his team to more wins and beat Wilson head to head in the playoffs which you hold in such high regards. All that on top of the fact that Ryan has done it for longer. Not sure how you could put Wilson ahead of Matt Ryan in any context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago_Mike Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Stats don't lie 1-4 in the playoffs. 5 turnovers in 2 games. So, Kelly wasn't a top 6 QB during his prime? Do we need to look at his SB stats or the team's SB record? That's just a very narrow minded approach. The whole game doesn't just hinge on the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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