Training Camp 8-4-2012

[sven233]

Appreciate it, fellas! Neither of you mentioned the dropsies by the WRs John Wawrow wrote about and Gailey commented on -- are they making it sound worse than it was?

 

First off, you guys are more than welcome for the report. Happy to do it. I know sometimes reading the media reports you get guys that just like to tell you what they think about things trying to prove their right about something without actually watching practice. So, if just having us fans that know what they are looking for and are just trying to be objective do something like this helps, I a more than happy to.

 

As for the "dropsies", there were definitely plays that could have been made that weren't. There were a few occasions that balls should have been caught but weren't. I don't put as much stock in it because Johnson and Nelson weren't practicing. Those are probably your 2 best receivers. Chandler was catching everything thrown his way and it looks like he will be even a bigger part of the offense than he was last year. Actually excited about the TE position. The "dropsies" that seem to come up are being made mostly by guys that either won't make the team or won't have a big role in the offense. TJ looked pretty good as well. So, when it is all said in done, I think the WRs will be fine. I don't think the drops will be a concern once we get our real WRs out there.

[sven233]

I was at practice Sat. too, here's what I'd agree with:

 

1. Fitz looked very good, his accuracy is more consistent.

 

2. The first team D-line is as advertised.

 

3. Gilmore is the real deal. I watched him a lot in 7-on-7 and he smothers the receivers. I wish I would have gotten a chance to see him work against Stevie Johnson.

 

4. The Moorman punt was great - I think McKelvin backpedaled so much in ended up hitting him in the head out of the end zone.

 

5. McGee is done. It was sad, he got beat bad in 7-on-7s a few times and right after that he was just standing on the sidelines or on the stationary bike and looked totally defeated. I felt so bad for him, you couldn't see his face but you could tell he was very dejected.

 

I wouldn't agree with:

 

1. Merriman. I tried watching him and he really didn't do anything. Comparing him strictly size-wise with the other DEs, I thought of Maybin. I hope it was just situational but I walked away thinking the best to hope for from him is 10-15 plays where he rushes the passer and records a few sacks.

 

2. I liked what Donald Jones did. He's not the deep threat they need but he runs good routes and made some nice catches. He and Fitz are in sync with each other.

 

Other observations:

 

1. I know Pears is out, Wood isn't taking full reps and the D-Line is really good, but I wasn't impressed with the O-Line. Hairston and Glenn have a ways to go.

 

2. If the WR group isn't Johnson, Nelson, Jones, Easley, Graham and Hagan I'll be surprised.

 

3. I was bummed that it was Thigpen's day as #2, I wanted to see Young more. Fitz is by far the best QB in camp, and Brad Smith isn't very good. He holds the ball and struggles finding open targets.

 

4. The LBs should be good enough, the way they play D the line & DBs are most important. There won't be 3 on the field for more than about 40% of the plays.

 

5. Scott Chandler looks like he's still getting better and could be an important part of the offense.

 

6. Spiller has made huge strides, he runs totally different (better) now. This will be the year people stop lamenting about picking him.

 

 

Just to clarify, I don't necessarily believe we disagree on Merriman. When I said I think he will make an impact on this team, I didn't mean it was going to be as a regular on the field. I think if he stays healthy, what I think you may see is hi getting 20-25 snaps a game mostly in pass rush situations. As for him looking like Maybin.....well, that's not right at all. You have to remember how big our D-Line is now. He is going to look a little smaller when you see him next to Mario, Dareus, Williams, etc. Our D defense is so much bigger in general that he just looks smaller in comparison. He still weighs in probably around 260. Maybin probably was about 220. Merriman is much bigger than Maybin. But regardless of size, I think he will have an impact in a limited role. Like I said, I am hoping we can get 25 GOOD snaps a game fro him. We'll see.

 

Oh....and Jones was OK. Nothing bad to say about him. He did some decent things. He just isn't going to be special. Hoping for a solid year. But the way the Bills are spreading the ball around, he doesn't need to be. There are going to be a lot of guys catching balls out there. In those offense, it doesn't look like there needs to be a distinct #2 WR. Gonna be a lot of guys having to step up. I expect Chandler and Nelson to maybe have more of an impact on the offense than Jones. We'll see, though.

 

I agree with your other observations as well. The one thing I will add, though is that while they will never say it publicly, I really think they are doing everything they can to have Glenn win the LT job. I really think they are hoping he steps up and are doing all the little things to help him win the job.

[Mike32282]

Thanks for the report! I was also there and I agree with you. That punt was awesome! Moorman was crushing them at the beginning. As for your other stuff, I, like you am very excited at the potential of this defense. They could definitely be top 5 in the whole league. Mario Williams is a stud and is going to terrorize QBs. Im sure Brady is already having nightmares. Dareus is already a beast and will only get better. Plus Kyle Williams is a solid DT in the middle. He'll definitely help plus the holes. And don't forget about Mark Anderson. I think a lot of people are discounting him, but they shouldn't. With the other 3, Anderson will probably draw quite a bit of 1-on-1s and is a very good pass rusher. I have a feeling he'll get double digit sacks along with Mario.

[Doc]

Just to clarify, I don't necessarily believe we disagree on Merriman. When I said I think he will make an impact on this team, I didn't mean it was going to be as a regular on the field. I think if he stays healthy, what I think you may see is hi getting 20-25 snaps a game mostly in pass rush situations. As for him looking like Maybin.....well, that's not right at all. You have to remember how big our D-Line is now. He is going to look a little smaller when you see him next to Mario, Dareus, Williams, etc. Our D defense is so much bigger in general that he just looks smaller in comparison. He still weighs in probably around 260. Maybin probably was about 220. Merriman is much bigger than Maybin. But regardless of size, I think he will have an impact in a limited role. Like I said, I am hoping we can get 25 GOOD snaps a game fro him. We'll see.

 

Oh....and Jones was OK. Nothing bad to say about him. He did some decent things. He just isn't going to be special. Hoping for a solid year. But the way the Bills are spreading the ball around, he doesn't need to be. There are going to be a lot of guys catching balls out there. In those offense, it doesn't look like there needs to be a distinct #2 WR. Gonna be a lot of guys having to step up. I expect Chandler and Nelson to maybe have more of an impact on the offense than Jones. We'll see, though.

 

I agree with your other observations as well. The one thing I will add, though is that while they will never say it publicly, I really think they are doing everything they can to have Glenn win the LT job. I really think they are hoping he steps up and are doing all the little things to help him win the job.

Merriman the same size as Maybin?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Merriman the same size as Maybin?

I know.

 

One of Merriman's butt cheeks is bigger than Maybin's entire ass.

 

 

[sven233]

Merriman the same size as Maybin?

 

 

Yeah...not sure where that poster got that Maybin size comparison thing. Merriman looks rock solid, as he always has. It's just whether or not his leg falls off or not. Hopefully he is fully healthy and ready to go.

[Delete This Account]

First off, you guys are more than welcome for the report. Happy to do it. I know sometimes reading the media reports you get guys that just like to tell you what they think about things trying to prove their right about something without actually watching practice. So, if just having us fans that know what they are looking for and are just trying to be objective do something like this helps, I a more than happy to.

 

As for the "dropsies", there were definitely plays that could have been made that weren't. There were a few occasions that balls should have been caught but weren't. I don't put as much stock in it because Johnson and Nelson weren't practicing. Those are probably your 2 best receivers. Chandler was catching everything thrown his way and it looks like he will be even a bigger part of the offense than he was last year. Actually excited about the TE position. The "dropsies" that seem to come up are being made mostly by guys that either won't make the team or won't have a big role in the offense. TJ looked pretty good as well. So, when it is all said in done, I think the WRs will be fine. I don't think the drops will be a concern once we get our real WRs out there.

i did what now? that's a little curious, because if you were attempting to keep track of what members fo the media, including myself, were and were not watching practice, how ever did you have time to see what was happening on the field?

 

as for your contention that the "dropsies" were being made mostly by guys that either won't make the team or not have a big role, well, that's another thing, too, if you're suggesting Donald Jones won't have a big role, or Derek Hagan won't either. and as i did point out in a story, what of the pass that hit Jones off the back of the helmet, because Jones failed to turn around. you didn't happen to be taking media attendance at that point, were you?

 

i take no issue with your camp report. providing your insight is fine. and all perspectives are appreciated.

 

the problem i have is when you attempt to explain what my job is, and how i go about doing it.

 

jw

[boyst]

 

i did what now? that's a little curious, because if you were attempting to keep track of what members fo the media, including myself, were and were not watching practice, how ever did you have time to see what was happening on the field?

 

as for your contention that the "dropsies" were being made mostly by guys that either won't make the team or not have a big role, well, that's another thing, too, if you're suggesting Donald Jones won't have a big role, or Derek Hagan won't either. and as i did point out in a story, what of the pass that hit Jones off the back of the helmet, because Jones failed to turn around. you didn't happen to be taking media attendance at that point, were you?

 

i take no issue with your camp report. providing your insight is fine. and all perspectives are appreciated.

 

the problem i have is when you attempt to explain what my job is, and how i go about doing it.

 

jw

With the drops and reading all of this information could it be guessed that the defense was playing to cause these? Or just poor performance?

[sven233]

i did what now? that's a little curious, because if you were attempting to keep track of what members fo the media, including myself, were and were not watching practice, how ever did you have time to see what was happening on the field?

 

as for your contention that the "dropsies" were being made mostly by guys that either won't make the team or not have a big role, well, that's another thing, too, if you're suggesting Donald Jones won't have a big role, or Derek Hagan won't either. and as i did point out in a story, what of the pass that hit Jones off the back of the helmet, because Jones failed to turn around. you didn't happen to be taking media attendance at that point, were you?

 

i take no issue with your camp report. providing your insight is fine. and all perspectives are appreciated.

 

the problem i have is when you attempt to explain what my job is, and how i go about doing it.

 

jw

 

 

WOW.....A little defensive, aren't we? I fail to see where I mentioned you specifically in my GENERAL comment about the media. I did not specifically attack you or anyone else in the media. Sorry you took offense to my report.

 

Look, I am not saying you, or anyone in specific, is not doing their job. I am actually sure you would agree that there are people, without naming any names, in the media that like to hear themselves talk and have a specific agenda. That's all I was saying. My job is not in the media. I was just there as a fan reporting on what I saw. On that specific day of practice, I wasn't concerned with the drops by the receivers and I explained why in my report. Now, if Stevie Johnson, David Nelson, and Scott Chandler start dropping balls on a regular basis, then I wil be worried. But I am not going to worry about guys that probably won't make the team anyway dropping balls. That was the question I was answering.......about the dropped passes. Are there dropped balls out there? Sure. Was there that day? Sure. Were they by the guys that will contribute in a major way to the offense this year? No. That is why I am not concerned about the "dropsies" as I was asked about.

 

Finally, again, I am sorry if you took personal offense to my post. I was not singling out anyone. In fact, I am a big fan of yours and your reporting. So, I am sorry if what I was writing came off the wrong way. Like I said....I'm not in the media. This isn't my job. I own my own retail company. I'm not a professional writier and I don't pretend to be. But when someone asks me personally about what I see about a subject, I am going to give my opinion. I know football....I know what I am looking at. You do, and many others in the media do as well. In the end, when asked if I was concerned about the "dropsies", I was basing my opinion on the guys that will matter the mos this season.....not the guys that won't be on the team. Again, sorry if what I wrote came off the wrong way. Didn't mean anything by it.

Edited August 8, 2012 by sven233

[Delete This Account]

With the drops and reading all of this information could it be guessed that the defense was playing to cause these? Or just poor performance?

 

defense always has something to do with it, but some of the drops were drops. and some of the routes run were bad. and the concerns coach Chan Gailey raised were real about the inconsistency displayed by the group of receivers behind Stevie Johnson and David Nelson.

as noted in another thread, this was a concern going into training camp, and has remained so. it bears watching.

 

jw

 

WOW.....A little defensive, aren't we? I fail to see where I mentioned you specifically in my GENERAL comment about the media. I did not specifically attack you or anyone else in the media. Sorry you took offense to my report.

 

Look, I am not saying you, or anyone in specific, is not doing their job. I am actually sure you would agree that there are people, without naming any names, in the media that like to hear themselves talk and have a specific agenda. That's all I was saying. My job is not in the media. I was just there as a fan reporting on what I saw. On that specific day of practice, I wasn't concerned with the drops by the receivers and I explained why in my report. Now, if Stevie Johnson, David Nelson, and Scott Chandler start dropping balls on a regular basis, then I wil be worried. But I am not going to worry about guys that probably won't make the team anyway dropping balls. That was the question I was answering.......about the dropped passes. Are there dropped balls out there? Sure. Was there that day? Sure. Were they by the guys that will contribute to the offense this year? No. That is why I am nt concerned about the "dropsies" as I was asked about.

 

Finally, again, I am sorry if you took personal offense to my post. I was not singling out anyone. In fact, I am a bug fan of yours and your reporting. So, I am sorry if what I was writing came off the wrong way. Like I said....I'm not in the media. THis isn't my job. I own my own retail company. I'm not a professional writier and I don't pretend to be. But when someone asks me personally about what I see about a subject, I am going to give my opinion. And I was basing my opinion on the guys that will matter this season.....not the guys that won't be on the team.

 

i beg to differ. you accused members of the media of not watching practice and then writing stuff "to prove their (sic) right," while suggesting that you might have a more "objective" eye.

 

i take issue because i am a member of the media. whether or not your referenced me specifically is inconsequential because i, in fact, wrote a story raising questions about the drops and the relative inconsistency displayed by the group of receivers behind Johnson and Nelson. so, it's logical to assume, i am among the members fo the media that are trying to stir up concern where there should be none, and without watching practice.

 

again, your observations are welcome. as are reports from all fans on this site. but making a generalized all-sweeping statement that what you see might be more objective than the media's, well, that's where we differ. i wouldn't make that claim about anyone else, because i don't see everything. and there are times when, yes, i do miss some practices due to other obligations. and we all see things with a different eye.

 

i never accused you of being wrong in your observations of practice, though i do believe that there should be a concern about the depth of the receiving corps because there's no guarantee against injuries. and what might happen, and who will be capably ready to step in if Johnson and/or Nelson can't play.

 

jw

[boyst]

 

 

defense always has something to do with it, but some of the drops were drops. and some of the routes run were bad. and the concerns coach Chan Gailey raised were real about the inconsistency displayed by the group of receivers behind Stevie Johnson and David Nelson.

as noted in another thread, this was a concern going into training camp, and has remained so. it bears watching.

 

jw

Thanks for replying so quickly.

I got sold on a river of hope that our WRs were doing very well. Maybe its the lack of ESPN credit and all but the last few days I am starting to get some doubts on some areas of our team. The only upside is there wasn't much in the way of fixing the WR issue that made sense. The costs were to high.

 

[sven233]

defense always has something to do with it, but some of the drops were drops. and some of the routes run were bad. and the concerns coach Chan Gailey raised were real about the inconsistency displayed by the group of receivers behind Stevie Johnson and David Nelson.

as noted in another thread, this was a concern going into training camp, and has remained so. it bears watching.

 

jw

 

 

 

i beg to differ. you accused members of the media of not watching practice and then writing stuff "to prove their (sic) right," while suggesting that you might have a more "objective" eye.

 

i take issue because i am a member of the media. whether or not your referenced me specifically is inconsequential because i, in fact, wrote a story raising questions about the drops and the relative inconsistency displayed by the group of receivers behind Johnson and Nelson. so, it's logical to assume, i am among the members fo the media that are trying to stir up concern where there should be none, and without watching practice.

 

again, your observations are welcome. as are reports from all fans on this site. but making a generalized all-sweeping statement that what you see might be more objective than the media's, well, that's where we differ. i wouldn't make that claim about anyone else, because i don't see everything. and there are times when, yes, i do miss some practices due to other obligations. and we all see things with a different eye.

 

i never accused you of being wrong in your observations of practice, though i do believe that there should be a concern about the depth of the receiving corps because there's no guarantee against injuries. and what might happen, and who will be capably ready to step in if Johnson and/or Nelson can't play.

 

jw

 

I see your point, but the fact is I was not making reference in to anyone in the media in particular about this specific case. Do you agree that some media members out there, regarding any topic....not just in particular the Bills.....but about anything sometimes are a little biased? If you think that it is possible that does happen sometimes, then that is all I am trying to say.

 

Also, In regards to the Bills and their receivers. Let's just assume for the moment that Johnson, Nelson, Chandler, and Jones are going to be your primary receiving threats this year. Are you concerned with their dropping the ball so far? If not, we are basically saying the same thing. Now, if you want to get into the depth at WR, then there might be some issues way down the line. I don't like Martin at all. He's been dropping balls ever since he got here. Easley still has to prove he can do it. TJ is a rookie so who know what we have there. Roosevelt....well, there is no arguiing that when he gets open, he catches everything thrown his way, Hagan.....well, he has been pretty solid in camp so far. Are there drops by some of these guys? Sure there are. But hopefully with the top guys I mentioned, and with Jackson and Spiller catching balls out of the backfield, those bottom 2-3 guys that do make the team won't be depended on heavily and the drops won't be an issue.

[Delete This Account]

I see your point, but the fact is I was not making reference in to anyone in the media in particular about this specific case. Do you agree that some media members out there, regarding any topic....not just in particular the Bills.....but about anything sometimes are a little biased? If you think that it is possible that does happen sometimes, then that is all I am trying to say.

 

Also, In regards to the Bills and their receivers. Let's just assume for the moment that Johnson, Nelson, Chandler, and Jones are going to be your primary receiving threats this year. Are you concerned with their dropping the ball so far? If not, we are basically saying the same thing. Now, if you want to get into the depth at WR, then there might be some issues way down the line. I don't like Martin at all. He's been dropping balls ever since he got here. Easley still has to prove he can do it. TJ is a rookie so who know what we have there. Roosevelt....well, there is no arguiing that when he gets open, he catches everything thrown his way, Hagan.....well, he has been pretty solid in camp so far. Are there drops by some of these guys? Sure there are. But hopefully with the top guys I mentioned, and with Jackson and Spiller catching balls out of the backfield, those bottom 2-3 guys that do make the team won't be depended on heavily and the drops won't be an issue.

even if i had questions about other members of the media, i wouldn't air them here.

 

as for your other point, Graham hasn't caught everything when he gets open.

Hagan has had his ups and then downs, though he seems to be ahead of everyone else in contending for a third or fourth spot. not sold on Jones just yet, because he's failed to prove anything once the regular season begins. and Jones has had his inconsistencies in camp.

and the issue goes beyond drops, as Gailey noted. he was surprised to see how much ground many of the secondary receivers have to gain in order to be at the level of understanding the offense and getting on the same page with Fitzpatrick as Johnson and Nelson are.

 

we do generally agree on this point, though i'm suggesting that, amidst all the happy talk favoring the bills these days, there are concerns present. and this is one of them.

 

jw