What is a #1 WR?

[PDaDdy]

Really? TE's shouldn't be coupled in with wide receivers when you're talking about what it takes to be a WIDE RECEIVER.

 

If we're just going to talk about positions and their stats just by a production standpoint than Chris Mohr is one of our best pass THROWERS with a QB rating of 118.7 in his career.

 

I get the point you are trying to make but it is a horrible comparison. Did you forget the minimum number of attempts to qualify for QB stats? TE's are big WR's now that can handle the pounding over the middle and create mismatches in your secondary. Catch up with the times.

 

SJ stats are to be compared to pass catchers which includes WRs and TEs.

 

2011

Rec 19th 76

YDs 20th 1004

TDs 21st 7

1st 25th 45

Edited March 6, 2012 by PDaDdy

[Dopey]

I always try to use the term pass catcher that way you don't exclude the TE's that are also better than SJ. Your stats eliminate the 5-6 TEs that are as good as or better from a production stand point. Miles Austin by the way who you compared SJ to got his 2011 stats in an injury filled 10 game season.

 

Don't get me wrong SJ is by far the best we have and I am super glad we have him but get real. He barely cracks the top 20 in most PASS CATCHER categories that matter. Let's look at SJ the "pass catcher"

 

2011

Rec 19th 76

YDs 20th 1004

TDs 21st 7

1st 25th 45

 

Basically SJ averages bottom 3rd of all 32 team's number 1 "PASS CATCHERS" using those important categories. Today's NFL TEs are more WRs than they have ever been.

You are correct, I left the TE position out of the stats. The OP asked what is a #1 WR. As for cherry picked stats for 2011, I used the same criterea for both years. Top 20 pass catchers in a league of 32 teams shows me he's a #1 in this league. Elite, no, but a #1 WR in this league. Are you telling me you can't find, maybe 10-12 teams that would use SJ as a #1 right now? NE,Clev,Balt,Jags,Maybe Tenn,Raiders,Bears,Vikes(Harvin? Really?),Panthers,(S.Smith is old),Bucs,Skins,Niners,Seahawks,Rams? Thats 14 right there. Remove 2-3 and that's still double digit teams that would love SJ. I get the "pass catcher" thing, but a #1 WR, once again, HELL YES!!!

[Hazed and Amuzed]

I get the point you are trying to make but it is a horrible comparison. Did you forget the minimum number of attempts to qualify for QB stats? TE's are big WR's now that can handle the pounding over the middle and create mismatches in your secondary. Catch up with the times.

 

SJ stats are to be compared to pass catchers which includes WRs and TEs.

 

2011

Rec 19th 76

YDs 20th 1004

TDs 21st 7

1st 25th 45

Catch up with the times? TE's have been big pass catchers for years, Have you heard of Kellen Winslow, Mike Ditka, Dave Casper or John Mackey? They handled a "pounding" that TE's today would crumble under and they put up similar if not better receiving stats.

[section122]

The first quality is he doesn't play for the Bills

 

New England (welker)

Miami (Marshall)

Jets (Santonio Holmes) bwhahahahaha the guy who quit on his team?!

Pittsburgh (Wallace)

Cincinnati (Green)

Colts (Wayne no due to wayne's age

Titans (Kenny Britt)how in the world? A guy who has never caught more than 42 balls?!?!?!

Texans (Andre Johnson)

Chargers (Vincent Jackson)I'm tired of posting about him but his numbers don't compare to stevies check the pinned thread for my comparison. On top of quitting on his team for more money.

Chiefs (Bowe)very comparable to stevie and more known for drops

 

----- That's 10 so far in the AFC

 

Cowboys (Bryant,---> maybe talent wise but a definite head case Robinson (closer one))what so now teams 3rd receivers are better than stevie?!

Giants (Nicks, Cruz (kinda a stevie clone, but its not just a better team. He has better speed and maturity))

Eagles (DeSean Jackson)come on man why would you say this have you ever looked at his numbers? again check the stevie pinned thread

Packers (Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson I will actually add him)

Lions (Calvin Johnson)

Vikings (Harvin)wow Mr Migraine? better than desean but I would say Stevie is at least on par with him

Atlanta (Roddy White)

Saints (Colston)

Cardinals (Fitzgerald)

 

 

I'm left with 13 names.

 

according to this board...any players that puts up numbers like Stevie Johnson but doesnt actually want to be a Bill....

 

SJ13 is.

 

Wanna know what a number 1 WR is? He wears 13 for the Bills.

 

2010:

TD's

Bowe 15

Greg Jennings, Calvin Johnson 12

Brandon Lloyd, Nicks, and Mike Williams 11

Roddy White, Mike Wallce, J. Maclin and Stevie 10

Only 6 recievers caught more TD's

 

........

I cut your post short but it was an excellent one. I will point out though that stats and facts have no place in this argument

 

I always try to use the term pass catcher that way you don't exclude the TE's that are also better than SJ. Your stats eliminate the 5-6 TEs that are as good as or better from a production stand point. Miles Austin by the way who you compared SJ to got his 2011 stats in an injury filled 10 game season.

 

Don't get me wrong SJ is by far the best we have and I am super glad we have him but get real. He barely cracks the top 20 in most PASS CATCHER categories that matter. Let's look at SJ the "pass catcher"

 

2011

Rec 19th 76

YDs 20th 1004

TDs 21st 7

1st 25th 45

 

Basically SJ averages bottom 3rd of all 32 team's number 1 "PASS CATCHERS" using those important categories. Today's NFL TEs are more WRs than they have ever been.

Yes I will agree that TEs do get more catches but they are completely different positions. Even still all of your numbers point to Stevie being a top 20 pass catcher. How much higher would he have to rank to be a #1?!

 

 

As for my answer to the OP... #1 receiver to me is an outdated term that used to aplly to the x receiver in an offense. Now there really isn't many #1 receivers per se as there are options and progressions now a days. So maybe the #1 is the guy who more often than not is option/progression #1. For the Bills that clearly is SJ.

[Maddog69]

No commentary on Welker getting the F tag?

Welker's tag is slated for $9.4 million in 2012

 

I guess you can argue who is the better receiver ....

 

Let's ask - Who is more important to their team - Stevie or Wes?

 

while I am not saying that Stevie is a better player than Welker, I would argue that Stevie is more important to his team. Welker has Brady throwing to him and Brady makes almost any receiver look good. When Welker was injured Edelman looked like an All Pro. If Welker dies tomorrow, the Pats offense would not miss a beat. If we lost Stevie we would be screwed.

[San-O]

while I am not saying that Stevie is a better player than Welker, I would argue that Stevie is more important to his team. Welker has Brady throwing to him and Brady makes almost any receiver look good. When Welker was injured Edelman looked like an All Pro. If Welker dies tomorrow, the Pats offense would not miss a beat. If we lost Stevie we would be screwed.

 

 

Screwed? I think they would find somone else to catch thoses passes, maybe not quite as good.

 

He got benched for being stupid, and then had another game with multiple drops this past year I think.

[PDaDdy]

Catch up with the times? TE's have been big pass catchers for years, Have you heard of Kellen Winslow, Mike Ditka, Dave Casper or John Mackey? They handled a "pounding" that TE's today would crumble under and they put up similar if not better receiving stats.

 

I'm not talking 1 guy in the league any given year a million years ago. I'm talking about today's "It's a passing league" NFL. The TE position has changed league wide not almost literally 1 guy a generation like the guys you mentioned.

 

You are correct, I left the TE position out of the stats. The OP asked what is a #1 WR. As for cherry picked stats for 2011, I used the same criterea for both years. Top 20 pass catchers in a league of 32 teams shows me he's a #1 in this league. Elite, no, but a #1 WR in this league. Are you telling me you can't find, maybe 10-12 teams that would use SJ as a #1 right now? NE,Clev,Balt,Jags,Maybe Tenn,Raiders,Bears,Vikes(Harvin? Really?),Panthers,(S.Smith is old),Bucs,Skins,Niners,Seahawks,Rams? Thats 14 right there. Remove 2-3 and that's still double digit teams that would love SJ. I get the "pass catcher" thing, but a #1 WR, once again, HELL YES!!!

 

Sure there are 10-12 teams out of 32, which represents the worst 3rd of teams, that MIGHT take SJ OVER their #1 WR. Could he play on most any team? SURE. Would he be there #1 receiving target? HELL NO. This is why I include TEs in today's passing league NFL. Would New England rather have SJ than Gronk? A resounding NO. Would New England rather have SJ than Hernandez? Probably not.

 

I get the rather specific point you are making about what has traditionally been called a WR but that point is less valid in 2011 and beyond with a lot of good offenses employing TE's as their #1 or #2 RECEIVING option.

Edited March 6, 2012 by PDaDdy

[Maddog69]

Screwed? I think they would find somone else to catch thoses passes, maybe not quite as good.

 

He got benched for being stupid, and then had another game with multiple drops this past year I think.

The guy was the first Bills WR ever to have 2 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That is not something to sneeze at. We've had some good receivers and QBs in the past and none could combine for that achievement. I agree that we would definitely have somebody in his place, but it would not be as easy for us to replace him and his production as it would be for the Pats to replace Wes Welker. Tommy would just throw more passes to Gronk and Hernandez.

 

Oh, and when we benched Stevie can you tell me what happened? WE LOST. We were winning when Stevie was in the game. Dare I say dominating. When he got benched, we got killed.

[PDaDdy]

The guy was the first Bills WR ever to have 2 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. That is not something to sneeze at. We've had some good receivers and QBs in the past and none could combine for that achievement. I agree that we would definitely have somebody in his place, but it would not be as easy for us to replace him and his production as it would be for the Pats to replace Wes Welker. Tommy would just throw more passes to Gronk and Hernandez.

 

Oh, and when we benched Stevie can you tell me what happened? WE LOST. We were winning when Stevie was in the game. Dare I say dominating. When he got benched, we got killed.

 

Who threw him the ball for those back to back 1000yd seasons?

 

Yes I will agree that TEs do get more catches but they are completely different positions. Even still all of your numbers point to Stevie being a top 20 pass catcher. How much higher would he have to rank to be a #1?!

 

I never said he wasn't a #1. HE IS! I'm just trying to illustrate what TYPE of #1 he is. He has put up stats like Lee Evans did when JP Losman was throwing him the rock. I thought Lee Evans was a #1 then and he did it with a bonehead for a QB and a team that had even less talent than this one.

Edited March 6, 2012 by PDaDdy

[Dopey]

I'm not talking 1 guy in the league any given year a million years ago. I'm talking about today's "It's a passing league" NFL. The TE position has changed league wide not almost literally 1 guy a generation like the guys you mentioned.

 

 

 

Sure there are 10-12 teams out of 32, which represents the worst 3rd of teams, that MIGHT take SJ OVER their #1 WR. Could he play on most any team? SURE. Would he be there #1 receiving target? HELL NO. This is why I include TEs in today's passing league NFL. Would New England rather have SJ than Gronk? A resounding NO. Would New England rather have SJ than Hernandez? Probably not.

 

I get the rather specific point you are making about what has traditionally been called a WR but that point is less valid in 2011 and beyond with a lot of good offenses employing TE's as their #1 or #2 RECEIVING option.

Not trying to be argumentative, but NE,SD,NO,SF,GB(kinda),Atl(kinda) are the only teams I see as a team that employs the TE as much in the passing game as WRs.So if we include these TE's, SJ is still a #1 receiver in this league.

Out of the list I gave, do you really believe he wouldn't be the #1 on most? MIGHT take SJ over their #1. Starting to think you have something personal against him(JK)

Edited March 6, 2012 by Dopey

[PDaDdy]

Not trying to be argumentative, but NE,SD,NO,SF,GB(kinda),Atl(kinda) are the only teams I see as a team that employs the TE as much in the passing game as WRs.So if we include these TE's, SJ is still a #1 receiver in this league.

Out of the list I gave, do you really believe he wouldn't be the #1 on most? MIGHT take SJ over their #1. Starting to think you have something personal against him(JK)

 

Right on. As stated, yes Stevie is a #1. I should have said that up front to avoid confusion. Basically anyone in the top 32 pass receivers is a #1 pass receiver. Anyone in the top 32 WR's is a #1 WR. Some teams have more than one some teams have none with that quantitative criteria.

 

Using somewhat qualitative criteria all 32 teams have a #1 WR which may or may not be their #1 pass receiver as they are usually the #1 option in QB reads and where the plays are designed to go to most of the time. They are #1 WRs in name and title.

 

There are obviously many ways you can define a #1 whatever which is why this conversation, like the franchise QB conversation, can be debated so passionately yet no answer ever found because no one agrees on the criteria by which you measure what one is. In 2010 Lee Evans was a #1 pass catcher in name but SJ was a #1 in the stats.

 

Which criteria makes more sense to use?

Edited March 6, 2012 by PDaDdy

[Ramius]

Right on. As stated, yes Stevie is a #1. I should have said that up front to avoid confusion. Basically anyone in the top 32 pass receivers is a #1 pass receiver. Anyone in the top 32 WR's is a #1 WR. Some teams have more than one some teams have none with that quantitative criteria.

 

Using somewhat qualitative criteria all 32 teams have a #1 WR which may or may not be their #1 pass receiver as they are usually the #1 option in QB reads and where the plays are designed to go to most of the time. They are #1 WRs in name and title.

 

There are obviously many ways you can define a #1 whatever which is why this conversation, like the franchise QB conversation, can be debated so passionately yet no answer ever found because no one agrees on the criteria by which you measure what one is. In 2010 Lee Evans was a #1 pass catcher in name but SJ was a #1 in the stats.

 

Which criteria makes more sense to use?

 

Stevie is in the range of about the #10-20 WR in the NFL (comparing all WRs across all teams). He's not elite. But he's damn good.