MattM

Edwards QB rating was 17th in the League last year--look it up. That reallly makes him an awful third round pick from 2007, wouldn't you say? Guys behind him have names like Delhomme, Favre and, oh yeah, Roethlisberger, among others. That as a second year player. The guy's won slightly more than he's lost, that with a pretty mediocre team behind him. In case you haven't noticed, QB's don't play the games by themselves. See the Denver game or the Redskins game in his ROOKIE year, where he lead the team back late to win, for cases where he's showed poise and leadership. Will he be a Pro Bowler in 2-3 years? Who knows, but he's certainly a heck of a third round draft pick, no? As for Whitner, what I was citing way above was another thread this week that included a link to a Sporting News article that had Whitner as the 8th rated safety and Merriweather the 17th--look it up. On Poz vs. Mayo, way to change the argument when it goes against you--even a Pats fan said that Poz would start ahead of Tedy (your original statement being "no way would Poz start over Tedy or Mayo"). Mayo is a good player (I still say a bit overrated, but that tends to happens to players in NE), but so is Poz. See your own Tim Graham quote on that. I'm through debating with you--you bring a meanness to your illogical arguments that is almost ragelike. Chill out, dude, or get out more.....

We'll see how he does in Cinci. Thanks for joining the conversation--as you'll see, we don't mind here when intelligent fans from other teams (even the Pats!) want to come over and chat.....

As noted way above, "lining up against" means compared to, since that was the idiotic premise of how you proposed to compare drafts, ie. who did we draft who could start on the Pats*. Really a false way to look at things, but I played along. It is moronic to say that Edwards was not a high value draft pick because he can't beat out a Hall of Fame QB. How is a QB who most neutral observers admit is better than at least 7-8 other starting QBs in this League in his second full year (and even better from a pure stats line I'd wager) and was picked in the third round in 2007 not a very good draft pick? I cited a neutral observer's view on Whitner over Meriweather--did you? That 1 sack and 1 interception of Poz's were one more than your boy Mayo had last year in those measurables that we have access to and that are the most widely used. Ever think that Mayo may have had better stats since he played behind one of the best D-lines in the League and one of the best NTs (even if he is a dirty player)? That ever cross your mind? Certainly helps to make plays in the backfield when your D-line can neutralize the O-line. Even so, Poz's numbers (since that's all we've got here to go by largely) stack up respectfully against the ROY and there's no denying that.

Point taken, but I think that goes more towards Pioli's talent analysis as GM than, for ex., your college scouting dept. I will give you a lot of credit for Welker, but not quite as much for Moss, since Randy would only go to the Pats* apparently and he really controlled the trade via his cap number and taking a pay cut. On Bruschi, I agree with you (or your agreeing with me). Don't know too much about Guyton other than seeing him fill in some last year. Didn't seem to grab me too much since, as noted above, I watched a lot of your games last year. Someone like Maulaluga might have been a nice fit for you this year, but we'll see how he does in Cincy.

On Edwards, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but think that my post you quoted pretty squarely sums up what I meant. I'll still take Whitner over Meriweather (who, yes, I've seen play quite a number of times, having DTV and a DVR--I catch at least parts of most Pats* games, actually). Safeties have run support duties as well in most Ds, BTW, the emphasis depending on the team and system. Go back and read your original post--you seem to dispute whether Poz would start over either Mayo or Tedy. I think he'd clearly start over Bruschi at this stage in Tedy's career. I think most neutral folks would agree with me. Bruschi may not even start himself this year, I suspect. My biggest grip with Poz is that he seems to find himself out of position too often. Don't know if that's due to playing his first year in the NFL or what. That said, I've also seen Mayo out of position and as noted, Mayo's stats aren't all that different than Poz's and, as noted, he has fewer "impact plays". That's what I originally meant by "being a tad overrated". I seem to remember days when a "good or very good" LB was expected to contribute 3-4 sacks, to go along with 2-3 picks and a FF or two..... The Pats* may indeed be playing in January while our boys are at home, but I strongly doubt that the difference is because they drafted better than we did in 2006-8, as was the original point in contention.

Thank you--I was was waiting for someone to get that.....

The question here is who had a better draft over the last three years--of that I'm very confident that neutral observers would give that to the Bills hands down (perhaps on the 2007 draft alone--Lynch, Poz, Edwards). That said, I also stand by what I said above on your criteria for how to judge a draft (based on who on our team could start on theirs). Bruschi's washed up. Springs is also 32 years old and injury prone versus the top CB picked in the draft last year and who showed flashes of talent late in the season on D (despite what the Pats* might have thoughts in Dec.). Whitner may not have the gaudy INT stats, but that's because he spends a lot more time in the box than Meriweather. If you don't understand the point I made about the Bills getting credit for drafting Edwards in the third round then I don't know what to say to you, other than to send you back to logic class (which I doubt you ever took). "Lines up" was a figure of speech--you were trying to say that the Bills shouldn't get credit for drafting Edwards since Edwards plays the same position as Brady and Brady is better than Edwards, none of which has any bearing on whether or not Edwards was a good draft pick. Interestingly, since you keep bringing up Mayo, Poz actually had more "impact plays" (FF, INT, sacks) than your ROY (and Bruschi, for that matter) did last year--you do realize that, don't you?

Not really--I stand by Fingon's views myself as to who would start. I'd also say that McKelvin might start over Springs or Bodden (Springs more likely than Bodden--if for no other reason than Springs might not be healthy (again)) and Poz over an aging Bruschi. Remember, for all intents and purposes Poz was a rookie last season,too. Notice that Tedy had not sacks, FF or INT's last year vs. Poz's two such plays. In addition, Paul's numbers weren't all that far off Mayo's, either (although admittedly system differences make a direct comparison tough). Whitner over Merieweather/Sanders is a no-brainer, despite how much ribbing Whitner gets here--don't believe me check one of the earlier threads this week that had a Sporting News article with DW as the 8th best safety in the League versus 17th for Brandon. It's also unfair to dismiss the drafting of Edwards, who most neutral observers agree was a steal of a pick in the third round two years ago and has the potential to be a good NFL QB, simply because he lines up against Brady. I stand by my statement that our drafts were better than the Pats* the last three years and I think that most neutral observers would agree with that.

Homerism aside, I'd take the Bills last three drafts over New England's hands down. The point about Pioli and Dimitroff is that both of those guys were (at least at one time) great personnel men and they're now gone this past season when Brace was drafted. That said, they themselves didn't do very well from 2006-8, either. I hear your argument that it's tougher to make (and make an impact on) a better team, but even with that, I don't think the Pats* have drafted well at all lately, which will come back to haunt them in the near future. Just my opinion. I think the mistake many people (including, and especially, the media) make is to base current actions not by themselves in isolation, but to instead project on those actions the results of similar actions by people in the past, to wit, "the Pats* have drafted well in the past, their current draft full of reaches must by definition then be great even though it looks like crap to me, but what do I know" instead of independently analyzing it on its face. Much easier to just do the former I suppose, but perhaps less likely to lead to correct results. Time will tell......

I'd actually say this is the post that hits the nail right on the head, personally. Lots of those guys aren't even on the Pats* any more and a decent number aren't even in the League. Compare that to their admittedly fantastic drafts earlier this decade and they are drafting like shells of their former selves and, as noted above, that was WITH Pioli and Dimitroff (their former head of college scouting, who became Atlantas' GM (i.e, the guy who took Ryan last year) in 2008).

Here you go--you make the call, but from where I sit, there's no one really there (other than perhaps Mayo, who I thought was a tad overrated last year) that excites me. Maroney had the potential, but he's a shell of his rookie self lately. With Meriweather, I can't get over watching him get torched in the Super Bowl, particularly on that last drive (even more in particular on a key play that let the G-Men get a key first down right before they scored--he got screened right out of the play on that Steve Smith catch). 2008 1.10 LB Jerod Mayo Tennessee from NO 2.31 DB Terrence Wheatley Colorado 3.15 LB Shawn Crable Michigan from NO 3.31 QB Kevin O'Connell San Diego State 4.30 DB Jonathan Wilhite Auburn 5.18 WR Matt Slater UCLA from TB 6.31 LB Bo Ruud Nebraska 2007 1.24 DB Brandon Meriweather Miami from SEA 4.28 DL Kareem Brown Miami 5.34 OL Clint Oldenburg Colorado State compensatory pick 6.06 LB Justin Rogers Southern Methodist from ARI 6.28 DB Mike Richardson Notre Dame 6.34 RB Justise Hairston Central Connecticut compensatory pick 6.35 OL Corey Hilliard Oklahoma State compensatory pick 7.01 LB Oscar Lua Southern California from OAK 7.37 OL Mike Elgin Iowa compensatory pick 2006 1.21 RB Laurence Maroney Minnesota 2.04 WR Chad Jackson Florida from GB; trade 2006 2.20, 3.11 3.22 TE David Thomas Texas 4.09 RB Garrett Mills Tulsa from DET 4.21 K Stephen Gostkowski Memphis 5.03 OL Ryan O'Callaghan California from OAK 6.22 DL Jeremy Mincey Florida 6.36 OL Dan Stevenson Notre Dame compensatory pick 6.37 DL Le Kevin Smith Nebraska compensatory pick 7.21 DB Willie Andrews Baylor

How about when they traded Spikes or, better yet, when they got two thirds plus for McGahee, who now may not even start. Those thirds turned into Edwards and the better part of Stroud, IIRC.......

Kind of like the Bills in drafting McKelvin when they knew they'd lose Greer, no? Or just about anyone else in that situation--like the Chargers taking that OLB early this year since they might lose Merriman even though they're stacked at the position? Other teams do the exact same thing all over the League. I hope they let Fatboy walk personally, since (a) while he is a POS dirty player, he is one of the top DT's in the League, and (b) their drafts have indeed sucked the big one the last three years (and that was with both Pioli and Dimitroff for most of those). Fatboy is the second most important player on their team, IMHO. They lose him in the middle and that D is nothing special at all. BTW, Seymour is a UFA next year, too, as is Logan Mankins (more big money due), so Richard may not be around next year, either--who was the replacement for him they drafted again? From what I've read, literally something like 25-30% of their team are FA's next offseason......

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patrio...ork-speaks.html My only bet on this situation is that the media will report this and the Pats*' reaction to it as 180 degrees different than they did when it was the Bills doing the exact same thing--if/when Kraft refuses to pay Fatboy it will be hailed all over the sports media world as an example of "principles" vs. when Ralph does it "he's just being his usual cheap loser self".......

Especially since Roy Williams got suspended a game last year for a lot less (a couple of horse collars) than Vince's 4, count 'em, 4 fines that season. Then again, we all know who he plays for, so it wasn't really a surprise to me that he got nothing. "All animals are equal, it's just that some animals are more equal than others" as Orwell might have said in "Animal Farm"......

I'm not going to pretend I didn't want this guy as a Bill--I did and this hurts. I've seen enough of Ellison and he's a backup at best and God forbid he or anyone else should go down next year. The FO screwed the pooch on this one, IMHO......

No one outside of pissed off Pats fans think that was a blown call, especially compared to what the Pats' tackles have gotten away with over the years (Easterbrook had a funny column describing how the Pats tackles do just that with their opponents-tackle them to the turf--yet never get flagged). In addition, that play was in the middle of a swarming scrum of players--the refs had no good angle to view that play, IIRC (and I do RC, since unlike you, I'm sure, I've watched that last drive over and over and over since then!). That is incredibly unlike the Pats' gifts, many of which occurred right in front of one or more referees with unobstructed views of the action--like the Tuck Rule or my personal favorite, the AFCCG against the Colts. I had that one TIVOed as well and watched in amazement how a ref no more than ten feet away and looking right at them watched a Pats' DB just absolutely grab a fistful of Pollard's jersey at the shoulder from behind, so hard that Pollard's head snapped back. This happened twice on one drive without a flag. Again, back to your main point--what I want is an example of you guys getting shafted on a call that most fans outside of your immediate fanbase acknowledge was a bad call, again, like the many pro-Pats' calls over the years. Folks who have interest either way in the Pats acknowledge them as kings of the blatant officiating bias--don't believe me, go ask on other team's boards..... PS Actually, my all time favorite may be in the Bills-Pats first game in 2007, when on the play before the safety a Pats LB or DE was literally two feet into the Bills backfield when the ball was snapped and yet no call when he made the sack that put us into position to lose a safety. Again, I had this on TIVO (still do) and watched repeatedly as the ball was snapped in slow mo and the Pats defender had by then jumped so far offsides it was ridiculous, yet no call, especially odd considering offsides is really the easiest penalty in the book to call other than perhaps a false start. Here's Easterbrook's write up for that game-- "The Patriots were flagged for just one 5-yard infraction, although there were at least four plays on which a Patriots offensive lineman wrapped both arms around a Buffalo pass-rusher, and the Flying Elvii benefited from an extremely convenient inadvertent whistle that ended a play when a Buffalo runner had 50 yards of green grass between him and the end zone. Meanwhile, the Bills were hit with seven penalties, including a ticky-tack nudge-in-the-back call that wiped out a fourth-quarter first down in New England territory and changed a scoring opportunity into a punt." http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...terbrook/060912 Some folks "get it" and call it like they see it. Kind of like Bart Scott in 2007 and you all see what the League did to him....

Tim: A. That's why I also mentioned the Serie A (Italian soccer) referee scandal. For the lazy, here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Italian_football_scandal That involved large numbers of people, teams and refs and happened this decade in one of the world's most popular soccer leagues. It also left no doubt that matches in that league were fixed with the help of referees. The ignorant among us might argue that it's a different place, with a different culture (and I can say that so the un PC among us don't have to, as I've got a vowel at the end of my name, too), but with things like the Whitey Bulger mess and its long history of civic corruption, I'm not sure if Boston is too much better than southern Italy in that regard. B. As noted, Donaghy did try to implicate other refs, but to date the authorities have not believed him. Mr. WEO, AFCEastFan, et all, I'm still waiting on that close game you all lost in the 4th on a bad call that the rest of the world agreed was a bad call. (Crickets chirping into the night.....)

I might have thought that, too, until Donaghy and the Italian soccer ref scandal a couple of years back. I also know what I see when I watch games (especially these days with the aid of a DVR) and again, I implore a Pats fan to give me just one example of them losing on a controversial call or non-call late in a game, 'cuz I've got a whole bunch in the other direction. I've never once gotten an answer that jibes on that point. Interestingly, the one they always come back with is the Broncos playoff game a few years ago when there was a bad call against them on a long pass that led to a score. Unfortunately for them that was in the second quarter. I pick my example carefully because if you were going to fix a game that is when you would see it done--late in the game and only if it was a close game and only if the team that was "supposed to win" needed the help. Otherwise, why risk exposing yourself? As noted above, we've already seen one major US sport have a problem ref (and he tried to implicate others apparently) influencing games for money. In his case it was for gamblers, but gamblers aren't the only ones who would have an interest in a particular outcome--why owners, League or team executives and networks all come to mind as people with keen interests as to who wins and loses. I stand by my view that this is all within the realm of the possible--whether it has happened, none of us here know for sure. It would be a stretch, admittedly, as conspiracies, particularly larger ones, are difficult to pull off, but to dismiss it out of hand as impossible is not correct in my view, particularly when it's already been done in similar leagues. I also find it hard for an objective person to doubt that the Pats get beneficial treatment from the League--other recent examples in addition to the ones I mentioned and the NYT article mentioned and which you didn't address include Wilfork not getting suspended last year despite 4 fines during the course of the year for dirty play (yet Roy Williams get one game off for a couple of horse collar tackles the same year) and Nick Kaczur basically getting nothing from the League despite having intent to deal quantities of Oxy. Don't take this the wrong way, Tim, because I actually like your reporting and I don't think this of you personally at all--what we're talking about in this thread is, in my mind, something that reasonable people can differ on, for ex. That said, isn't it possible that media outlets attached to networks with multi-billion dollar contracts with the League might have an incentive to downplay any potential real controversies of this sort with the NFL? I know you can't answer this in a public forum, but I'd be very curious if you or any of your ESPN buddies had ever been told to kill or downplay certain stories due to casting a negative light on the League? I have journalist friends at some major institutions and from that it doesn't sound like it's impossible to me. There doesn't seem to be much left in the way of independent journalism these days and the current newspaper crisis won't help in that regard at all, I'm afraid. PS You want to see a great example of the BS calls I was referencing above and one that few people paid attention to at the time and which doesn't involve the Bills? Go back and watch the Texans-Pats game from 2003 where the Pats won in OT. I imagine that ESPN has tapes of all of the League's games. I was watching that game on NFL Sunday ticket. Brady threw a deep pick late seemingly sealing/turning the game. Lo and behold, way late and way away from the action, some kind of defensive penalty was called on the Texans. Why I remember that one so much is that the announcers didn't seem to understand what the call could possibly be and were really flummoxed by the whole thing. Sure enough, Brady brought them back to win the game shortly thereafter. I just shrugged, even then used to such things happening for certain teams.....

Understood, Tim, but what say you to things like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/sports/f...ttee&st=cse There were plenty of other articles around the time of Spygate in which other NFL folks, named (Jack Del Rio and Rod Marinelli each accusing the Pats of some bizarre headset problems at key times of the game at Gillette come to mind) and unnamed, accused the Pats of more than just Spygate. Doesn't it stand to reason that if a team that had received a very clear memo in July 2007 saying don't tape your opponents then goes and does so two months later that said team might also be interested in cheating in other ways? Personally, I think that the League these days is a bit like the latter stages of Orwell's "Animal Farm"--"all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". Dr. Z in his column (God bless him) during Spygate wondered aloud whether Kraft's status as a big shot owner meant that matter got handled much differently than other owners would have had it handled. Things like the Pats playing the Bills four years in a row off the bye week (natural odds of that happening randomly about 1 in 4000) or the Pats getting to play back to back West Coast games twice last year so that they wouldn't have to travel back east come to mind. This year, as soon as I heard Marshawn would likely be suspended, I said to my "I'll bet you $100 we open up with New England this year". It's just so predictable at this point. Have you ever wondered how one team seems to get more calls and non-calls late in close games than any team in recent memory? I don't know if you were covering the Bills during the "just give it to them game", but there have been at least three Bills-Pats games in the last ten years that basically came down to horrific officiating (usually multiple calls/no calls going one way in a close game) in one direction only. If this were truly random, shouldn't that even out over time? I've asked Pats fans this many times in many fora and never gotten an answer--name me one close game that they lost late in the game on a controversial (and I mean controversial outside of Boston) call. They can't seem to do that, yet I and most other close fans of the sport can name close to ten that they won that way. That Baltimore Monday nighter in 2007 was a joke--once again, as soon as the Pats got the ball back I turned to my wife and said "the Pats will march down the field and score. If they need it, they will get help from the refs on the way." Again, it's just so predictable at this point. Isn't it possible that very rich and powerful men who are used to winning at everything they do will be so addicted to winning that the line between moral and immoral gets blurred? We see it all the time in other areas of life, why would sports be any different? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm just going by what I'm seeing with my own eyes, like Nate Clements being nowhere near out of bounds yet an early whistle wiping 6 off the board in a close game yet again......

Plus 1--he's easily the dirtiest player in the League, IMHO, and I wouldn't want to see him in Bills uni. He's a POS--that hit on JP was so blatantly intentional it wasn't funny and then for him, after a season full of similar garbage (who can forget his trying to poke out Brandon Jacobs' eye as well) gets a slap on the wrist from the Commish after bringing his wife to the meeting. If he played for anyone else he almost certainly would have gotten a suspension at that point (he'd been fined 4 times that year), but, oh, no, can't suspend a Pat* going into the undefeated playoffs. The favoritism shown to that team makes me puke. Remember, too, that was the year Roy Williams was actually suspended a game for his horse collars, much less, IMHO, than what Wilfork had done up to that point.....

Well, our secondary, which is nearly intact from last year's, gave up a whopping 3 more yards per game than yours did, and that's playing behind a weaker D-line and LBs by your own admission. In addition, your O was much better than ours, so our D faced more possessions;/drives by the other teams, which should also go into the mix. Add the fact that the only guy we lost was Jabari Greer, a good corner no doubt, but gained Drayton Florence and Youboty back, as well as Corner and McKelvin's additional year, not to mention adding a decent 2nd round pick in Byrd and I'd say we're a lot better than your secondary, which lost its best corner, its aging starting safety and picked up some aging vets no one else wanted and who, in the case of Springs, can't stay on the field, as well as some young unproven players in Wilhite, Wheatley and Chung.

I agree with the logic here. He wants to go somewhere where he can rack up the stats and try to cash in next year. Despite what some folks here may think, for most players it is all about the money. If the Bills offer him more than Chicago (and by "more" I mean at least 5-10% more, but not necessarily something ridiculous like 30% more) then he'll come here, IMHO.....

At this point in their careers, considering their ages, salaries and potential role on our team of a 2nd back for 3 games and a 3rd back who can come in on 3rd downs hopefully for the rest of the year(which is the relevant question here), yes, I'd say that Rhodes is the better pick for Buffalo. I hate to admit it, but I may agree with Mr. Bruschi above, that Taylor probably fits better for the Pats* as more of a primary runner (i.e., 1st and 2nd down back), as (a) he doesn't have great hands and (b) they have a similarly ancient Kevin Faulk for their 3rd down back and Sammy Morris, only slightly younger at 32 during the year backing all of them and Maroney up. How is it that New England has 3 guys over 32 at a position where most teams have no one of consequence over 30 since skills decline so badly after that age at RB? Does the RB coach share an office (and physician) with their LB and safeties coach? Just wondering......

Just to show that I'm not a complete homer, Maroney looked fantastic at times his first season in the League. In particular, I remember watching him in pre-season that year just absolutely running wild and, mainly, over people. I think that's his problem, by and large. He runs too upright and doesn't shy away from contact as much as he should and his body takes the pounding for it. People worried about the same thing with AD Peterson, but he's managed to stay much more healthy. Maroney, on the other hand, can't seem to stay on the field due to those injuries. Marshawn has a little bit of that, too, but so far has managed to stay relatively healthy, but time will tell. Maroney's injury history seems to have also worn out his Belicheat welcome--I remember in 2007 some kind of verbal sparring between the two. Maybe Maroney learned from Ted Johnson's experience that BB doesn't always have his player's health in the forefront of his mind when he tells you to get in there even though you're hurt.....