Bob in Mich

You can lead a horse to water.... I didn't say don't talk to your doctor, if you actually read the words. Here this is what I said (from above): Anyway, be careful in discussions with your doctors. It sounds odd to say because generally they are such experts and we confide in them, but most doctors were taught only about the harmful effects of this in med school. Also, consider that most doctors were studious and weren't necessarily the most streetwise and so didn't learn a lot about cannabis growing up. Add in the fact that very few pharmaceutical companies are pushing cannabis based solutions. Doctors, with few exceptions, are not experts on cannabis based solutions. Many are very opposed. Don't talk about your usage or desire to use cannabis until you have felt them out a little. Maybe the old, 'I have this friend that was talking about using cannabis to treat...' would be a good approach I know full well that it will not cure everyone of everything. And it has been mentioned, it has side effects though they are mild. What I am saying is that there are tremedous medicinal properties within the plant. After reading 6 pages of stoner accusations and misconceptions in the earlier marijuana thread I wanted to try to educate some folks hoping that the information might help them. If you can't see the possibilities already, you probably never will.

The guns that I own are not new. I don't have model numbers for you. It is not my hobby and I am not going to research that for you. I don't have to know that level of detail to carry on a discussion however. 1) Are you saying that gun experts, such as yourself apparently, could not make a determination with the MAJORITY of rifles made today as to whether or not the rifle is an appropriate hunting rifle? 2)Are they all made today so that one looks like the other? No way an expert could choose a pile to put it in, is that right?

lol

Really no one here is saying that cannabis can not be addictive. It can be to about 9-10% of users, from what I have read. What I am saying is that if you have someone that cannot seem to rid themselves of an addiction, say vicodin, and you can substitute cannabis and have that be an effective replacement, you are reducing potential harm to the patient. Also, that information concerning addiction that I referenced is not from the youtube video, it is from the research study of Therapeutic Possibilities of Cannabinoids. See the link It is quite far from a fluff document. http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/58/3/389.full.pdf+html

This is from a medical marijuana board - http://www.michiganm...almarijuana.org No, I am not affiliated. Many Thanks to the original poster. These types of transitions are not at all uncommon. It is about the only way many doctors are being convinced. Their pain med patients are not pounding on their door every 30 days because they have found an effective substitute that is not destroying their organs. (Note: MMJ, referred to below, is medical marijuana) -------------------------------------- Posted 09 July 2010 - 02:34 AM I don't remember much of January after my accident. I was on 750mg of Vicodin every 4 hours, plus a couple of Flexiril per day. Ibuprofen was added to the mix as well. I couldn't get anything done, had very little short term memory, and eventually the Flexiril started messing with my eyesight. Friends were growing concerned and advising me to be careful with the Vicodin. In February I knew I needed to do something to change the path I was on. I began weening myself off the Flexiril and cut back on the Vicodin, and increased my Ibuprofen intake to try and deal with the pain. I got off the Flexiril, and cut my Vicodin usage in half. In March a concerned friend provided me with some MMJ. I noticed a pleasant decrease in how my pain was affecting me. So I cut back on both my Vicodin and Ibuprofen use. By April I was down to 375 mg of Vicodin 2-3 times a day. I also cut back my Ibuprofen usage. This progress continued until present day. I haven't taken a Vicodin in days. I take 3-4 Ibuprofen or Tylenol in the morn. I medicate with MMJ 3-4 times a day. I'm walking 1.5 - 2.25 miles per day now, whereas before I could hardly get out of bed. Unless I do something stupid, or have an accident, this is how my life is these days. If I have a mishap, then I might grab 375mg of Vicodin to get the pain under control, but I no longer regularly dose with this addictive drug. MMJ has made my life a lot more normal, and keeps me from having to take addictive drugs to get relief.

You make some excellent points. Addiction is a terrible thing and I too have seen addiction ruin lives. Mostly alcoholics but I have seen coke addicts, meth addicts, and lots of people very dependent on pain medicine. It certainly is an illness that seems impossible for some to overcome. As an addiction professional, I imagine you see the people that already have a serious problem. I very much value your input but I feel that your perspective is somewhat skewed. If you only worked with and were yourself a recovered very obese individual, you may want to restrict lots of foods that most of us love and can handle. Harm reduction, as I am sure you are aware, is an attempt to put the patient into a safer situation. A person can get to a safer place if they can transition off of a daily routine of vicodins, muscle relaxers, nerve medicine, sleep aids, (and various pills to overcome the side effects of the scripts) to a cannabis based solution. I feel that is obvious

Here is a related NFL story from January Goodell: NFL would consider allowing medical marijuana http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2014/01/23/commissioner-roger-goodell-marijuana/4797267/

Is it easier to distinguish the people or the rifles, genius? Enlighten us, please Put out all rifles manufactured today and try to divide them into piles of hunting rifles versus non hunting. You will have two pretty big piles with a third, much smaller pile left over to argue about. Some will be hard to define but most are not. I'll try not to stumble over my ignorance but let me give you a tip. Don't let your perceived superiority get in the way either

(This is a repost from another marijuana thread. I just want to consolidate the information ) I don't want to preach but there is something that tripped up a lot of patients in Michigan when the medical cannabis initiative passed here. Yes, it was a 2008 ballot initiative in Michigan that won 63% to 37% Anyway, be careful in discussions with your doctors. It sounds odd to say because generally they are such experts and we confide in them, but most doctors were taught only about the harmful effects of this in med school. Also, consider that most doctors were studious and weren't necessarily the most streetwise and so didn't learn a lot about cannabis growing up. Add in the fact that very few pharmaceutical companies are pushing cannabis based solutions. Doctors, with few exceptions, are not experts on cannabis based solutions. Many are very opposed. Don't talk about your usage or desire to use cannabis until you have felt them out a little. Maybe the old, 'I have this friend that was talking about using cannabis to treat...' would be a good approach. If you decide to try to have a frank discussion come armed with copies of research abstracts and copies of links to recent reports. Be prepared for resistance and I hate to say it, but be prepared to hear astounding ignorance stated very confidently. From their viewpoint I think they feel that they are the experts and so if they are not aware of the cannabis option, it is just some internet fluff or worse, an attempt to secure drugs from them. They may even label you a 'drug seeker'. Many patients found out the hard way here in Michigan that even though the state laws changed, the doctor or more often his/her practice or hospital, had an anti-cannabis policy. Many patients were dropped outright for admitting that they used cannabis to treat the same condition their doctor was treating. Others with doctor monitored opiate dependencies were forced into periodic pee tests and if testing positive for cannabis and/or negative for opiates, were cut off from their opiate prescriptions. Sounds insane but that was not uncommon at all.

Many folks are unaware that cannabis has been used as medicine for about 50 times longer than it has been prohibited by the US Government. Once you know that it has been called medicine in the past it might be a little easier to accept now as medicine for some people. See these excerpts from the US Pharmacopeia dated 1900. These are instructions as to how to make an extract of the ground up cannabis plant. This is remarkably similar to the method shown on that video where Rick Simpson 'washes' the cannabis with a solvent and then boils off the solvent. The plant was outlawed and vilified in the 1930's and pretty much all research halted then. The American Medical Association opposed the prohibition at that time because they feared that research would be halted on the plant. They were right. http://antiquecannab...dix/USP1900.htm A pre-prohibition (pre 1937) look at cannabis in the USA. http://antiquecannabisbook.com

It could be very tough to distinguish between a hunter/sportsman and 'everyone else' Agree completely However it is not nearly as difficult to distinguish a rifle designed for hunting from one designed for combat and offensive purposes. So I don't think the legislation is so impossible

Whew, and here I was worried that you were against medical cannabis. That's a relief. Thanks too for that tip. I will keep a sharp eye out for any hucksters or snake-oil salesmen. So far I haven't seen anyone pushing anything but information.

I saw this WebMD article from this spring. I don't know if you have any more trust in them but it is an interesting article on doctors' recent views on medical cannabis. http://www.webmd.com/news/breaking-news/marijuana-on-main-street/20140225/webmd-marijuana-survey-web SOURCES: Gallup: “For the first time, Americans favor legalizing marijuana." WebMD: “Marijuana – recreational and medical – what the patient thinks – what the doctor says.” USA Today: “Which states have legalized medical marijuana?” Medscape: “Colorado Family Physicians’ Attitudes Toward Medical Marijuana.” © 2014 WebMD, LLC. All rights reserved.

Yeah, sorry, you are right. I was getting frustrated I guess.

With all we have learned regarding the hazards of cigarette smoking, smoking medicine seems crazy. It is counterintuitive but recent studies are showing that cannabis smokers have no greater risk of head, neck, or lung cancers than do non-smokers. There are carcinogens in cannabis smoke, many of the same ones as in cigarettes, but cancerous tumors do not seem to develop. The other point concerns dosing. As a medicine, cannabis fell out of favor in the early 1900's because of dosing difficulties due to the variability from batch to batch. With the variety of strains, differences within the crop, and differing processing methods, consistency in tinctures and extracts was nearly impossible to achieve. Doctors could not be certain that their patients were being given the proper dosing instructions. Back to smoking....when ingesting by taking small puffs you are getting near immediate effect. Did it relieve my pain? Yes, then stop. No, take another puff. You are able to take a very accurate dose this way. When you ingest an extract or eat an infused medible such as a brownie, you must wait for about 90 minutes or so to know if it is the proper dosage. The usual reason someone takes a stronger dose than they wanted is because they ate the medicine and it is difficult to know the proper dose until you have used it a few times. Uniquely, cannabis cannot kill with an overdose so one can safely learn their proper dosage through trials. A cannabis overdose can surely scare a new user though. Cannabis concentrates are extremely powerful. The patient may get nervous thinking that they took too much and now are going to die, but that is just imagination and anxiety working together. Help them to relax and the effects will soon pass. The anxiety attack is why people end up in the emergency room. So, for immediate relief and for titrating dosage, smoking works very well. The unexpected surprise for me was that it doesn't increase the lung cancer risk.

Tom, I like humor as much as the next guy, probably more. I usually prefer joke filled conversations to serious ones. Sometimes though people are trying to make a serious point, like in a thread such as this and jokes get in the way of the message. Certainly a free country and free board and you can do whatever you wish. I'd like to ask however that if you have serious questions or comments, by all means ask and I will try to help. If you just want to make mst3k comments though, please keep them to yourself. Just asking... Thanks. Maybe you can educate us as to why you are so dead set against cannabis and any of its users. After all of the info I have shown to you, you seem to get a kick out of calling all cannabis users stoners. Why are you seemingly unable to open your mind up to the fact that maybe you missed something regarding cannabis? There just may be some information that you don't already know that could help you or one of your loved ones. Possible? You mention addiction but in a mocking way. Cannabis has widespread use in treating addiction if you want to know the truth. 'Harm reduction' is the term used when moving someone from a more dangerous substance to a safer one. Still technically addicted but now in less danger. Heroin addicts are transitioned to methadone as a form of harm reduction. Arguably as bad, but at least pure and measured dosages minimize accidents. Did you even look at the links that I have posted. That 2006 report on therapeutic uses of cannabis ( http://pharmrev.aspe...9.full.pdf html ) mentions using cannabis to treat many forms of addiction. In the medical community, obviously not yet in your mind Tom, but in the med community, transitioning to cannabis is considered harm reduction. Cannabis does not damage the organs of the body like alcohol, tobacco, heroin, opiates, methadone, etc. And no, smoking cannabis does not increase the risk of lung cancer either. Remember watching that part in the video?

Deign,eh? I had to look that one up. You are certainly smarter than your posts would indicate. It is just a lil hypothetical question. It can't hurt you. So what if your answer is to take away everyone's gun. That is OK. Go on, just try and answer it. Try Chan. I think, and I know that I don't know you all that well yet but I really think you can answer it if you would just try.

OK, last try Chan. If you don't want the help, don't read it The video is comprised of excerpts from documentaries from CNN, PBS, National Geographic, etc. They are not clips from teenagers with a camera. These are accredited sources. Look at the http://www.nih.gov site and do some research. These people are not making this up. Why would they? When you suspect someone of trying to deceive you, you should consider their possible motivation. Are they selling me something? Are they getting me to join something? Am I signing away any rights? etc. I have no reason to try to deceive you. I am just trying to show folks some facts that they may not know.

Yeah, don't learn anything more. I mean, why should ya? It hurts your head, right? It is apparent that you would gain nothing by being exposed to new material so don't bother.

Not everyone with a gun will fire it daily in anger. But if you are honest, you would have to admit if almost all adults are carrying weapons we will have more shootings of people than we have today.

I understand why you won't believe some guy posting on the web but did you watch the video? Look at the credits at the end. These people are not just guys on the web. Lots of MD's and PHD's in those credits from actual Universities and Hospitals.

I know many patients and have read on medical cannabis boards about people cutting their vicodins, their sleep aids, their muscle relaxers, their diabetes medication, their epilepsy medication, their blood pressure medication, etc. So, yes, it has cut into the pill manufacturers in states that have legalized. There are other pharma companies such as GW Pharmaceuticals that are poised to explode in value if and when cannabis based medicines take off. My feeling is that although cannabis based medicines will be available from many sources, medical insurance will cause people to gravitate toward buying from FDA approved sources such as GW Pharma.

bbb, they call that willful ignorance. It is really the worst kind. This is readily accessible information but you seem to be fearful that it will upset your long held beliefs. Go ahead, man. I challenge you to watch the whole video and come back and tell me that it wasn't worth your time. If you have got time to be BS'ing about the Bills, you certainly have time to learn something valuable.

(Apologies to those that saw these links in the recent marijuana thread as some on the first page of this thread are just repeats.) I know NY recently approved medical cannabis and I thought I would post some helpful information as in Michigan we have covered much of the same ground in the last few years. It is apparent that many posting here don't believe that cannabis can be real medicine. That is understandable given that was what most all of us were taught all of our lives. Please try to have an open mind. I promise you that you will learn a great deal. Please check out the recent thread here on marijuana related problems increasing. http://forums.twobil...the-rise-in-us/ Look for my super intelligent comments starting on page 6 of that thread Seriously though, this is important. I am selling nothing but I feel like I should try to spread this knowledge. No joke. Please, if you know anyone with a chronic illness, check out this video. It will be worth it. The first couple of minutes are not representative of the rest of the documentary. You needn't watch the whole hour in one sitting. It is simply amazing https://www.youtube....h?v=XfO_MpDm5kc Edit: Seems that video link is no longer working. These documentaries are pretty good. Try them instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYA9EpVB2qo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aTbnO9I-TU Here is one of the postings from the recent marijuana thread here. I hope the links work. Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:49 AM Medical Cannabis has been legal in Michigan for several years. It can be a very effective medicine which has few side effects when compared to many prescription medicines. Anyone taking medication long term knows that you have to be able to tolerate the side effects of the medication in order for it to help. If you think that there are no medical benefits to cannabis beyond preventing nausea, you really need to read some more recent research because you truly could not be more mistaken. Cannabinoids are molecules found in cannabis. There are about 85 discovered so far, only 1 of which is the much feared THC. Cannabis is effective in treating so many medical ailments because the cannabinoid molecules from the plant are nearly identical to molecules created within our own bodies called endo-cannabinoids. Through recent research we have learned that the body creates an entire network of endo-cannabinoid molecules and cannabinoid receptors in order to transfer messages between cells. The similarity of plant and animal molecules is merely a coincidence of nature but one that allows the plant to stand in and to supply the missing messenger molecules if needed. When there is a disruption in the body's ability to create endocannabinoids, important signals don't get through and a whole host of health problems can develop. The missed message may be to stop feeding a cell that is scheduled to die. If the cannabinoid molecule is not present to pass that signal along, cells may not die when they are designed to and they can divide and metastasize out of control leading to a cancerous tumor. The message that is missing may be to slow down the number or rate of signals to a brain or peripheral nerve cell. Perhaps they are overloaded. This is what can happen with epileptic seizures or chronic pain from damaged nerves. Missing messages can affect nearly every organ in the body. See the website from GW Pharmaceuticals http://www.gwpharm.com and go the 'R&D' tab at the top. See the 'Product Pipeline' and the 'Therapeutic Areas' sections on the left. You very well may be amazed at the medical possibilities. By the way, this company's stock, GWPH on the Nasdaq, is up about 10 fold in the past year or so. Those are real dollars betting on the potential medicines to be extracted from the cannabis plant. If nothing else, please take the time to scan just the table of contents from this 2006 research report on the therapeutic possibilities of cannabinoids. It may be information that would allow you to help a sick friend or relative, or possibly even yourself. http://pharmrev.aspe...9.full.pdf html A Glossary to Help in Deciphering the Research Studies Thanks to poster 'in vivo' at the Michigan Medical Marijuana Association board, here is a glossary of terms with wiki links. The research reports that I link to (below) use a lot of unfamiliar terms, at least to most of us. You might find this helpful. http://michiganmedic...44364-glossary/ Mentioned among many other maladies are diabetes, Parkinsons, arthritis, cancer, Alzheimers, asthma, IBS, hypertension, and psychiatric illness. This report is from 2006 and we have learned a lot since then. More research is desperately needed but it appears very promising that cannabis may be able to treat many illnesses. It makes some sense that many diseases that have confounded researchers over the past 75 years are linked to cannabinoids. Due to governments' prohibition of cannabis, research on the plant and cannabinoids have basically been forbidden for those same 75 years.

Be sure not to mix em up