[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

54 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, that game left us with much to think about.  KC's EZ fumble, Wide Right, etc.  That's an interesting game to look at.  It's somewhat of a conundrum.  

 

We ran 78 plays to their 47.  We averaged 4.7 YPP which is low, as in bottom-dwellingly low.  They averaged 7.7.  Time of Possession 37 to 23 us.  

 

It's befuddling to be sure.  But what was the case is that there was no shortage of short-yardage plays in that game, McD's "complimentary football" on display.  Our longest completed pass on that day was 15 yards to Diggs.  Murray also caught one for 15 but that was a short pass that he ran the rest for.  

 

That's Brady football as directed by McD's "complimentary football" approach.  They obviously deliberately did that.  It was similar the week prior vs. Pittsburgh.  In both games our above-average offense managed only to match the average YPP allowed on the season by both defenses.  One would think that a top-ranked offense would do better than what the opponent had allowed on average.  Miami averaged the same, the Ravens 6.3 YPP.  

 

Either way, get used to that approach, because whether fans realize it or not, that's what McD wants.  That's what he means when he says "complimentary football."  We know that he's not wise in the ways of offense, so the issue that many of us have with that is that, again, it's not even remotely using Allen to maximize his contributions other than his rushing.  Allen posted 189 and 186 yards passing in those two games.  I'm not sure what anyone expects in terms of WR production when there's an average of 34 attempts in both games, and an average of 23 total completions.  That's not a lot of balls for receivers to gain the kind of yardage from that everyone's critical of us not getting.  

 

Under Brady, in 6 of 9 games Allen hasn't exceeded 240 yards passing.  He's averaged 33 attempts/game, for a bottom-dwelling 60.7% under Brady, his worst for any significant stretch of games since 2019.  That was with receivers he's known and played with for several seasons.  

 

He's going to get worn out playing like that.  Averaging 9 carries/game under Brady he'd average about 150 carries on the season.  If he doesn't do that, who's going to run the ball on 3rd-downs?  He took more 3rd-down carries than the rest of the team combined with 43.  Those are typically the toughest yards to get.  Cook had 4, all season.  Murray had the second most with 20, but averaged a mere 2.0 on those.  Is he still with us?  

 

Anyway, that's how we played under Brady.  IMO it's not sustainable over an entire season to have your QB run that much, and now, particularly since our receivers won't exactly be inducing fear in the minds of the DCs and defenses that we face.  It's easy to say that we'll adjust by doing [such and such] but it's more difficult in practice.  McD isn't for being a great Adjustments coach, and will he even try to adjust from something that he's forcing to begin with is the question.  

 

We'll see if the Draft changes anything, but as of now the only significant picks that we have that even realistically sniff at a hint of making a rookie impact are 28th and 60th.  The rest are day-2 fodder picks.  On top of that, Beane's track record with rookie production isn't great.  Kincaid did better but still didn't match the hype.  Torrence was good too, but we need WRs now.  

 

 

To be fair Allen launched three deep balls which on most weekends in the NFL would have been caught. Both the WR's that couldn't make those catches are gone.  If they catch 2 of those 3 shots we win that game.

 

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree, of course, that Von Miller is not a good comparison.

 

The only stats Diggs was top 7 in were targets and receptions.  Top 13?  Receptions/G 9th.  10th in 1D.  12th in TD.  13th in total yards.

 

But "Every receiving category"?  Bzzzt.  

Y/G? 17th.  

Y/R? 67th

Y/T?  69th

Catch %?  111th.

Success %?  48th.
YBC?  15th

YAC? 31st

Passer rating when targeted?  111th.

Of 29 receivers with >1000 yds, he was 23 in drop % and 25th in broken tackles.

 

I'm not trying to say Diggs was horrid, but he was getting paid like a top-5 WR, and his performance, viewed from that lens, wasn't good ROI.

 

On the other hand, for the Texans as maybe the 18th paid WR, he slots in as reasonable ROI if he has a similar season.

I think the best logic that's been used on this deal is the chap who pointed out what other, comparable age and performance WR received in trade - which was....wait for it...comparable.

And when you throw in his yearly disappearing act in the playoffs................

[Diggs trade aftermath...what this means for the offense, draft, other WR's still here...]

5 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

The only place anywhere that's saying that we'll be better offensively after this trade is a subset of fans here.  Nowhere else does anyone think that at face-value right now at this point in time are we improved, many think we're notably worse.  Out of about ten, I haven't seen one "grade" that's more positive than negative regarding this trade.  

 

As for me, I'm simply envious of what the Texans are doing to support Stroud, after one season, contrasted to how little we've done for Allen after 7 seasons.  

 

 

This is spot on.  Hopefully though McD/Bean have got religion and after taking a step back by releasing Diggs they take two steps forward in the draft and land at least one if not two high end WR's.  This is the draft to do it and next years #2 they got for Diggs absolutely should be committed to moving up to draft a better WR.

 

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

2 minutes ago, Figster said:

Some bad chemistry going on, I get it. On the other hand, one of the best QB's the league has ever seen doesn't have a WR1, or WR2.

 

I sure hope the Beane head has something up his sleave besides switching to a run 1st O...

I am very confident that Curtis Samuel is a #2.

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

4 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Patriots did this all the time and were called revolutionary for it.  Bills do it and the pitchforks come out

And the Chiefs are doing it big time now.

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

1 minute ago, sleeby said:

But Mahomes is a celebrity QB.  And he was a cry baby last season too.  You seem to hold Josh to some fantasy high standards and then judge him harshly.  

Bingo.  Does this Doopey troll own a TV and watch football?  You can't go 5 minutes before seeing a Mahome commercial.  The weirdest anti-Allen take on 2BD and there are a couple of doozy's, is the one where Allen party's all off season while Mahomes earnestly study's to be a better QB. 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

15 minutes ago, Dopey said:

He's only the guy who helped Josh elevate his game to the next level. There's a reason we gave up the haul we did for Diggs. Diggs was all in and it looked like a match made in heaven. Then, one of the two got a big head and let the media keep letting it get bigger, cheated on his live-in girlfriend with a bartender and got her pregnant  (😂). THEN started dating a celebrity. The Po-Po showing up at his house the week of the Cincy game cuz the ex caused a scene. Not to mention the parties at Josh's house the night before home games. During the week of the Cincy playoff loss, Josh's head wasn't in the right place to lead any team to beat Cincy, much less winning a SB. Before you all start, Josh himself said the issue wasn't football related when it first came up. He said he would come back in '24 as a more mature person/player. With Diggs being older now, maybe he didn't want to waste his time with what he sees as an immature QB, who can't get past dating celebrities, much less beating the other top QB's in the AFC. I will say, we haven't heard much from Josh this off-season. Maybe he is maturing 🤞.

The stats below for Josh clearly show he was the biggest beneficiary from the arrival of Diggs. 

 🙄

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure Diggs helped Allen elevate his game in 2020.  Allen more then returned the favor by elevating Diggs stats big time for four consecutive years.

 

But if you and others believe what you post then you must have wanted the Bills to trade Allen and keep Diggs?  Why don't you just come out and say it?

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

Not trying to pile on Diggs but these playoff stats are a real eye opener:

 

Going back to the 2021 season Diggs has played in 6 playoff games.  His numbers underwhelm:

 

Targets = 46

Catches = 27 (less then 60% catch rate)

Yards = 289 (less then 11 yards per catch)

TD's = 0

 

In these 6 games Diggs had only one 100 yard game (7 - 114); the other 5 games saw Diggs with 60, 52, 35, 21 & 7 receiving yards.

 

Over the course of these 6 games Allen was superb throwing the football for 1642 passing yards & 16 TD passes and only 3 INT's.

 

And Diggs was targeted 46 times.

 

Over this period Diggs was the 2nd best player on the Bills just behind Allen.  And it's fair to say that Diggs under performed in 5 of the 6 playoff games since 2021.  That is not acceptable for a WR #1 in clutch time.

 

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

Bean's grade on the trade is "incomplete".  Let's see how it all turns out but I have a sneaky suspicion that a year from now Bills fans will be very happy with what down today.

 

 

[Diggs traded to Texans for picks]

Some folks are poo pooing the 2025 2nd round pick but if you combine it with the Bills #28 pick this year it could enable them to move up in the 1st round or add it to this years #2 pick and maybe jump back into the 1st round.

 

And since it's actually the Vikings 2nd round pick it should be pretty high as Minnesota is looking to have a down season this year.

 

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

29 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Love Josh Allen but he needs to start winning these marquee matchups against the other top QB’s in the playoffs. 0-3 vs Mahomes and he’s 0-2 vs. Burrow. He’ll always be #3 until he beats those guys. 

He's 0 - 1 versus Burrow in the playoffs.  If you're going to include regular season games so you can say Allen is "0 - 2 vs. Burrow" then you have to include the regular season between Allen & Mahomes where Allen is 3 - 1.  

 

BTW when Dan Marino kept losing to Jim Kelly in the playoffs did we say that Kelly was a better QB then Marino?

 

 

[Chiefs president floats the idea of the team leaving]

5 hours ago, stuvian said:

Riyadh, Saudi Arabia has a nice ring to it. 

Nick Wright will fit right in.

 

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

28 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Shaw, you're right, Allen needs to be better.  That's fine.  I have no problem with anyone saying that Allen can be better.  The issue is that you put Burrow in a different tier from him saying he's a better QB and I just think that's patently false.

I agree.  From my POV Allen and Burrow are equal with both being elite.  Any advantage that Burrow may have on ball placement, accuracy and reading coverage is easily matched by Allen's stronger arm, superior running skills and ability to escape pressure. And while Burrow has one Super Bowl appearance Allen has not missed a game in over 5 seasons.  As they say, availability is the most important ability.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think Herbert looks like a million bucks, but he plays for the Chargers. 

 

After several decades, Mr. Wilson convinced me that, just like everything else, there are people who are good at owning an NFL franchise and there are people who aren't good.   There's a reason the Chargers are perennial mess, and it starts at the top.  

Sure you can blame the Chargers ownership but Herbert has been blessed with excellent offensive skill players the last couple of years.  In last season's 31 - 30 playoff loss to the Jags Herbert could only manufacture 3 second half points.  IMO Herbert is clearly on a lower tier then Allen & Burrow who are side by side just below Mahomes.

 

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

4 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Another poster mentioned Mahomes as an example of one man putting a team on his back but I don’t buy that at all.  He has arguably the

best TE in NFL history and a HOF coach who is recognized as an offensive genius.

 

And to anyone paying attention this years Chiefs super bowl win owes more to their defense then to Mahomes or the offense.  If the Bills D played as well as KC's did this season in either 2021 or 2023 Buffalo would have at least one Super Bowl.

 

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Quit with your hero worship and read what people are actually saying.

 

The issue here is when you deny the words you used, it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion.  

If you want to have a "reasonable discussion" maybe you should stop calling it "hero worship" when some of us disagree with your takes on Allen?

 

Look, I don't think there is much Allen can do going forward to improve his physical tools.  IMO the best use of his time the first couple of months after the season ends is exactly what he appears to be doing:  relaxing and decompressing from football. 

 

I also think Shaw has identified the one place where Allen could significantly improve and that's in his decision making.  But experience will go a long way towards fixing this.  Where I disagree with Shaw is that I don't think this deficiency is as important as he does. I believe that Allen is already playing at a level, including decision making, that would win the Bills Super Bowls if the coaching and play from other top Bills talents matched Allen's play in the playoffs.

 

I sense that you don't like Allen's style of play.  Here's your quote abut Favre from above:  "But I think one can argue Favre cost his team championships with his gunslinger approach."  I disagree with this because you are saying that Favre would have been better if he changed who he fundamentally was.  IMO he would not have been better and maybe would have had a mediocre at best career if you had your way.  From what I can tell you want the same thing for Allen. 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Professor Worthington said:

Any criticism of Josh Allen or acknowledgement of such has got to stop.  Those who do it look uninformed and clownish, or they are desperate for attention and clicks.  
 

He is an elite QB with generational talent who will be enshrined in Canton one day.  Can he improve?  Sure, we all have opportunities to improve, but his performances are not behind the Bills’ failure to reach the SB.

 

Against the Texans we had a special teams TD reversed and a defensive meltdown in OT.  13 seconds is on the defense and coaching.  This year, thank you Tyler Bass and Stefon Diggs.  17 isn’t the problem.  It’s the 54 other players and coaches that deserve the criticism.

Well said. 

 

When someone like Shaw or Beck point out areas that Allen could work on they do it from the POV of being Bills fans and wanting the team to get better.  They also do it without malice aimed at Allen and in full recognition that the path to a Bills Super Bowl might be more likely achieved if Allen tweaked his game then if other parts of the Bills organization pulled their fair share. These are all debatable points but IMO form the basis for an honest, positive discussion about Allen and his play.

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Find one single person on this board saying Josh is the sole reason we haven’t one a Super Bowl.  I’ll save you time; no one has.  What has happened is that people state correctly that he can continue to improve.  And that you and others then go into hyperbole and claim things that have not been said.

 

I don’t know of a single fan either personally or on this board that is not happy we have Josh as our QB.

Judas Priest now the criteria is SOLE REASON? I don't have time to play games.  There are plenty of posters who call out Allen as a problem keeping the Bills from advancing further then they have.  None of them are saying he's the sole reason but time after time they claim or insinuate that Allen's play is limiting the Bills.  And every time I see this I call out BS, because that is exactly what it is.

 

If you're truly happy Allen is the Bills QB then why do you insist he has to improve for us to reach the next level?  On any rational list of what the Bills must do to get over the hump Allen playing better is #99. 

 

And please enough with the "everyone can improve" shtick.  It's true but completely irrelevant to Allen and the Bills.  IMO even if Allen improves as much as he can it won't matter to the Bills getting over the hump if they don't significantly improve other areas of the team.  In other words we homers believe that Allen has played more then well enough to win multiple Super Bowls if other parts of the Bills team & coaches improved their game. That's where the focus and discussion needs to be.

 

 

 

 

[The criticism of Josh Allen]

45 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No one is claiming Josh alone is holding the team back, only that he like EVERY OTHER ATHLETE IN RECORDED HISTORY can improve.  Does our D need to improve a helluva lot more than Josh for us to win?  Absolutely.  Coaching?  A helluva lot more, absolutely.  O line?  Yep, absolutely.

 

Quit with your hero worship and read what people are actually saying.

Actually quite a few posters over the last couple of months have been saying exactly that.  And then when some of us get pissed off and call them out for it you and others accuse us of "hero worship".

 

And for the record no one is saying Allen can't get better, we agree that everyone can improve.  What we are saying is that Allen is near peak performance as a QB and he is the LAST THING preventing the Bills from taking the next step and winning a Super Bowl. 

 

 

 

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

14 hours ago, FireChans said:

This is going to be tough to hear but:

 

Mahomes in his three playoff games against Allen

 

1011 yards 9 TD's 0 INT's. He has never had a passer rating of less than 123 (!!!!!) against Allen in the playoffs.

Not hard to hear at all.  In fact this is very enlightening and tells Bills fans exactly what needs to get better to beat Mahome & the Chiefs in the playoffs - and it ain't Allen.

 

 

4 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

 

He's a thought which many may not want to consider or address. Maybe whatever he does he simply won't be as good as Mahomes. He's good enough to win a Superbowl - worse QBs than Josh have won Superbowls - but perhaps the Bills do just have the number two (at most). And no matter how much criticism is flung at him, no matter how many times he drives his body into the ground, that won't change.

 

That, and he played against a much better defense that Mahomes. Allowing an average rating of 123 when his play off average is 'only' 105 speaks volumes.

Here's the counter thought to this - in the head to head match ups Allen has played as well as Mahomes in 2 of the 3 games.  Factors other then Allen is why the Bills lost both games.  

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

4 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

Outside of the division game in 2022 would not call any of the playoff exits great. He was good in the most recent playoff loss against the Chiefs. However, there were instances where we were on the brink of getting blown out. If not for Poyer saving that TD we were probably on the way to being beaten soundly. The almost near fumble while driving to tie the game before the miss FG was another play.
 

For me the next step in his growth is being consistent making the plays in front of him and minimizing the mistakes. We can blame the coaching, defense, o-line, weapons around him. However, I am including Josh in there too. We didn’t put up any points in the 4th quarter and clearly wasn’t good enough to get the win. That falls on the entire team including the QB.

Sorry but yours is not a serious post.  If we're going to play the "what if" game how about the 3 dropped long passes, and yes in the NFL I've seen all those catches repeatedly made during the season, that cost us at minimum 10 and probably 17 points.

 

And if you're going to go on about Poyer's fumble keeping the game close, how about the terrible coverage and missed tackles that handed KC 14 of their points?

 

As for the 4th quarter, the Bills would not have been shutout if Diggs catches that TD pass or Bass makes that 44 yard field goal.

 

IMO in all 3 playoff losses to the Chiefs Allen was the least responsible of any Bills player for those losses.  Tell me who you think played better then Allen in any of those 3 games? And in any of those games did the Bills coaches outperform the Chiefs coaches?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

1 hour ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

Who steps up in the playoffs....Kelce or Diggs!  

 

It's not so much Mahomes as it is Kelce in my opinion.  That dude straight murders our defense.

And you can throw Reid & his coaches in there to. 

 

BTW check out Allen's stats after the last 2 playoff games against the Chiefs:

 

515 passing yards with 5 TD's & 0 INTS;  140 rushing yards on 23 carries with 2 TD's & no lost fumbles.  That's 655 total yards with 7 total TD's and 0 turnovers.

 

If you throw in the 2020 AFC companionship game against KC Allen has in his 3 playoff games against Mahomes:  1030 total yards with 9 total TD's and only 1 turnover.

 

Anyone claiming Allen is the reason why the Bills can't get past KC or that Allen must work harder in the off season so he can get past Mahomes should have their NFL football fandom revoked.

 

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

5 hours ago, billieve420 said:

Not many players will ever reach that level dedication to football that guys like Brady or Peyton has shown. You just hope that Josh knows what he needs to work on as a player in order for this team to win a Super Bowl. He will have to take his game to another level if he is going to get past Mahomes.

No he won't.  In his last two playoff games against Mahomes Allen played great.  The problem is that the coaching and/or some of the rest of the team did not rise to the occasion. Look at Allen's game stats for these 2 games and tell me he has to play better? 

 

This entire thread is madness.

 

[Anyone else feeling pretty good with the Bills?]

50 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Heading into the draft, I feel pretty good about the Bills.  The only thing lacking is a pash rush from the front 4.  I am concerned Groot has had a couple seasons now and needs to step up and be a 10+ sack guy.  I don't like depending so much on Von. Other than that I feel all the other positions are solid. 

 

Depending on who is there at 28, I am tempted to move down, possibly with Carolina who may want to move back into the 1st. Possibly Washington as well to get a 3rd round pick.   Maybe use a 4th and 5th( or 6th) to move up in the 2nd.

 

WR is still #1 on my list followed by DL.  Safety in the 4th, along with just BPA from there on out.

 

How are you guys feeling about a month out from the draft?

Very good.  Given where the Bills sit with respect to the salary cap I think they had an excellent off season.  As Bills fans we know that the losses while sad did not really hurt the team.  I'm thinking that replacing Morse will be the trickiest part with the most potential downside.  But any Bills fan knows that Morse was undersized and that caused problems against teams with monster DT's.

 

 

 

 

 

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I also have the impression that Josh may have changed who he works with, as he talked (post season this year) about making sure he spent time with the "appropriate people" working on his throwing mechanics because with the shoulder injury, he reverted and struggled a bit during the season.  So you may well be correct that Josh "dialed back" his relationship with Palmer, but it doesn't follow he's not working with someone.

 

I dispute that right here and now.  He doesn't start lifting weights and throwing 4x/week as early as he did his first few seasons (and there may be medical advice that plays into that) but it doesn't mean he doesn't work hard when he works.  And he seems to be into flexibility training - "stretch and strengthen" is a different approach, which I understand Tom Brady promoted.

 

The injury reasons you cite are not only great points but I would go as far as saying that the Bills medical staff have set conditions for what Allen should and should not do after the season ends.  We know he had injuries the last 2 seasons to his elbow and/or shoulder and it stands to reason that there were restrictions to how much throwing he should do from February through April. I would be shocked if the Bills medical people hadn't put restrictions on Allen throwing the football during these 3 months.

 

 

 

[Does Josh Allen still work as hard in the offseason?]

16 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Allen is a great qb and #2 currently. What he does in the offseason is his business. But that drive to be the best that existed in Brady and is what’s driving Mahomes right now is clearly not in Allen. That’s ok because not everyone has that and it’s not a requirement to win a championship. 

Are you basing this on Allen doing a lot more commercials then Mahomes in the off season?

 

 

[Which NFL Team do you think is winning the offseason up until this point?]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Everything bolded does not improve the team. 

You can't read my post without first seeing and understanding the CIRCUMSTANCES in which the Bills off season started.  When you have been a division winner and final 4 - 8 finisher for 4 straight years the off season isn't about getting better as much as it's about staying at the top.