WideNine

What I find interesting is that there are a few posters who rarely ever venture into starting a thread themselves, yet feel they are an authority on what is a good thread or not and are quick to offer their opinion. They are welcome to their opinion - of course, and I won't try too hard to change it, but I do think that if a thread is so terrible don't bother reading it, or better yet show some stones and start your own threads so others can sit back and judge them. I just like to get conversation rolling on the Wall - take it, or by all means leave it. I don't really mind that folks argue about the same things from a zillion different angles and will be likely arguing the same things next season, it is what it is. There are plenty of threads that state the obvious about this offense, yet you will still find plenty of people citing our lack of offensive production (the scoreboard) in defense of how poorly Daboll is performing as an OC or how poorly Allen is doing at the QB position. That is why I spelled it out in very clear, very "DUH" fashion as you put it, just how inexperienced and just how many castaways made up our starting roster last Sunday. There is plenty of reason to hope and be excited about this offseason, because if they can produce with the group they have now I cannot wait to see what they can do if OBD retools the line and weapons Josh has.

Weapons are nice, but I think you have to have time to get it to them... I agree with many posts here about upgrading our o-line via free-agency and picking up some WRs in the draft. It is obvious that this offense could use some veteran influence, especially along the line. Not trash, I think they have found some gems, but I am amazed that they have been able to get these guys ready to play. And I would expect routes to be run poorly and more than a bit of miscommunication out there - just think they are doing a pretty good job all things considered. Fair enough... it is not like I am a Daboll fan-boy, I see more than a few plays I would not agree with. The play you mentioned, that was a head scratcher, as well as the inside run for Josh that looked like a design play when we were running out the clock. I am fine with option plays where Josh rolls out and decides to keep it, or when he sees the defense has dropped back into zone or man leaving him a lot of room to run, but running him right into the teeth of the defense... he got rocked on that play.

Agree 100% and I don't think we have anyone behind Groy at Center, at least no one was listed on the depth chart. Likely one of the Guards could be pressed into duty if Groy gets injured - not that he has ever been injured before... which he has.

You are most welcome sir, but you forgot that this was also another excuse thread for Daboll. I will try to abstain from posting anything supportive about Josh Allen or Daboll on this forum - just for you.

Rather than bitching (complaining, nit-picking, whining, pick the appropriate adjective) about offensive production under Daboll or with Allen under center, I think we should all be more amazed that this motley collection below even have the capability to move the ball at all against other NFL teams. Just food for thought. Ladies and Gentlemen these are your Buffalo Bills! The starting roster on Offense for the Detroit game (at least for many of the snaps): 79 Jordan Mills T (Practice Squad Player) 73 Dion Dawkins T (2nd Year Starter) 75 Wyatt Teller G (Rookie - inactive thru Week 8) 76 John Miller G / Ike Boettger (4th year struggling player, lost snaps during the game to Ike Boettger Practice Squad) 72 Ryan Groy C (bounced around the NFL for 5 years PS w/Chicago, traded to NE and spent that time on IR, injury settlement, waived and went to TB Practice Squad then to Bills) 16 Robert Foster (Practice Squad) 11 Zay Jones (struggling 2nd Year Player) 19 Isaiah McKenzie (Practice Squad) 35 Keith Ford (Practice Squad) 80 Jason Croom (Practice Squad) 12 Josh Allen (Rookie QB)

I think the whole completion % thing has been beat to death, but I am pretty sure 26CB posted this clip at some point where Trent Dilfer talks about evaluating Allen. He also emphatically shares his disdain for the completion % stat when incorrectly used as a gauge for accuracy - for what it is worth from someone who played the game:

Daboll was a QB coach for the Jets for two years and Favre thought highly of him, Culley has spent time in the college ranks as a QB coach...so Josh actually has two at this point and I think you can see that Josh is getting coached. I will be curious to see how much input Daboll will have on this draft ...the Bills certainly hit on some Clemson UFA talent... but drafting Ray Ray, and Proehl - two guys both projected as slot receivers was not what I had in mind.

If I actually thought Josh was regressing I would agree. And I like Daboll so far in that he is creative...perhaps too creative at times, but I think he does put guys in a position where they could make a play more often than not. And those situations you mentioned are true for those situations. Josh isn't regressing, so I think it would not benefit him to have a change at OC.

I disagree a bit, but don't mind a game where they are sacrificing some completions for getting to Brady a lot.

Truth - and the reason for the hard count and the free pass play that they always go for.. most teams will get a PI, the refs were a bit wishy-washy on the calls last week. I would think you should take a few shots to see if they are calling it tight or not and if they are - go for it whenever you get that man coverage.

I know the Peterman subject is a sore one for most, but Peterman had his chances and they were epic terrible offensive outings. From all accounts the team liked Peterman and I don't get the sense anyone gave up on him, he just could not sense the rush or escape it which led to a lot of turnovers. Not just this year, but also when he had a much better o-line in front of him than Allen the year before when he filled in for an injured Tyrod, so folks just need to let that one go. I only mentioned him in regards to Zay dropped passes from him, and Tyrod, and any other QB throwing to him - that is all.

I remember that toss, looked like the Bills were in some kind of zone deep in the end zone a the receiver was being passed from gap to gap. Not a fan if that was the case. Will have to watch that play again to be sure. It could be that Wallace was on him and just lost a step - teams also like to cross up receivers to do a "rub" or "pick" to free up a receiver - the Patriots excel at that. I can see dropping guys into shallow zones that are as deep as the goal line and get in the way of passing lanes and work to prevent dump off, scrambles, and outlet passes from getting anywhere, but any deeper you need to have man coverage with maybe a safety or two playing center field watching the QBs eyes. I felt like Detroit's receiver had far to much room to find soft spots that Stafford could easily hit. And yeah, Stafford had too much time too, but he is a good QB when given some time and not playing beat up.

We will, unless the zebras get in the way and call back touchdowns on phantom or ticky-tacky holds, call roughing the Brady anytime anyone sneezes on him, or stretch 4th and 4 completions into 4th and 6... , or any other of the list of endless officiating "work overs" we have had over the years with the Pats. They are vulnerable this year, and if we can generate pressure on Brady with just our front 4 then we have a good chance. That, or we get the lead and our defense does the 4th qtr give away thing - hoping for the best.

This statement is not true. Our number of dropped passes is truly egregious, and only ranks a hair behind Arizona for NFL WORST.

What frustrates me most about evaluating kids coming up from college is the lack of finding out how many dropped passes they had. Some may have been featured in very pass-heavy offenses and simply had enough passes their way to offset several drops to have great receiving stats. The argument around Zay and Josh is not complete till you factor in that he dropped catchable passes all the time last year with Tyrod throwing them to him, dropped passes with a host of reserve QBs and Peterman throwing to him. The kid flat-out drops a lot of catchable balls and should not be in this conversation IMO. Now if you had a solid receiver with great hands who suddenly tailed off because Josh was throwing him the ball - different story, and perhaps one that would deserve closer scrutiny.

Sometimes it is hard to help - many teams run an empty set, or just one back to force teams to go man and some zone. Detroit flat-out lined up in Jumbo and used an o-lineman as a blocking fullback and spanked us like naughty kids whenever they were in short yardage. The Bills really did not have an answer to that set, where you really cannot do anything unless someone penetrates enough to trip up and take out that lead blocker - then the whole play is disrupted. Hopefully your defenders can still seal the edges because many times that is when the running back bounces it outside and walks into the end zone.

...and shush your business of talking about Daboll leaving. the last thing a rookie QB needs is a bunch of different playbooks thrown at him and a whole different brand of coaching philosophy to adapt to. Let Josh find his NFL game in one system is my sincere hope. I also think Daboll may just stick around as he has a chance with this QB to have a special offense if they can get him more protection and a few more weapons.

Yeah, Pat Williams had a pro-bowl afterlife with the Vikings after the Bills let him walk.

For the sake of peace between two solid posters - let's just say the truth is in the middle. Our receivers needed to elevate their game, some have and some have not, AND Josh needed to get better with ball placement - which anyone watching the games knows he has done. As for pulling in better weapons, for the kind of offense Josh could run, we need receivers with great hands that can stretch the field. Not all QBs can throw it on a rope 40+ yards, but ours can. You look for ways to use that to our advantage... not that a great possession type, blocking TE that can find soft spots in the shallow zones would be unwelcome.

This. The Bills need to do better homework on their receivers, and I agree with KTD where they are drafted means squat if they do not have the right skills, attitude, or fit into the kind of offense you want to run.

For those looking to make any critique a Kyle dig, it is simply apples to oranges. Kyle, from the day he was drafted, was the high-motor penetrating linemen you need to rush the passer. He is not, nor has he ever been considered your prototype "run stopper". Kyle's techniques are to shed blockers and get up field, it is those and his tenacity to never give up on those plays that have led him to well-deserved pro-bowls. That being said Kyle style of play was never intended to occupy two gaps, maintain leverage and push, to stop the run. Not saying he sucked at it, just that it is not how to best use what he brings to the game.

One could just as easily say that the rest of our scrub receiving core need to elevate their game to Foster's level... and I don't include McKenzie in that list because I think that kid does the most with what he has. What has Foster done differently? Reports a few weeks ago indicated that Foster was going out of his way to put in extra reps with Allen to get their timing down, when KB was asked by Allen to practice routes and timing he so much as said "meh". The success these two are having is not an accident.. the receivers need to put in the work and elevate their own play. McD indicated as much when asked about Foster, basically said that he hoped the other receivers were watching what Foster has done, the lessons he learned by work he puts in behind the scenes to find success. “Sometimes, people need a wake-up call that this life in the NFL, as we onboard these young players, life in the NFL, you’re not on scholarship and some guys need to understand that,” McDermott said. “Some players, unfortunately, never get it.” Foster agreed with his coach. “I needed it, I needed it,” Foster told reporters. “At the end of the day it helped me grow more into a student of the game. Player of the game. It made me work on things I needed to work on. It made me just do a lot more things that I could do to benefit the team.”

Anyone who had the opportunity to watch Ted and Pat shut down the run "The Package" should not just dismiss his assessment out of hand. They simply planted any running back that tried the middle and forced every run to the outside for our backers to clean up. At one point when the Bills were playing a Favre-led GB team, Favre said in a half-time interview that anyone thinking they can run against these guys are fooling themselves... that was after the Bills had GB backed up in their own end zone and they elected to try a safe running play to get some room and their running back was thumped 3 yards deep into the end zone turf (I think by Pat Williams) - it was literally like "nail meet hammer", I was worried the kid was broken in several places along his body. Sure the Bills have picked up some guys that can swim and penetrate on passing plays and that is good, but they went out and picked up Star for one reason, so he could occupy 2 gaps and an extra linemen to "free up" the others on the d-line to make the stop. Anyone watching the Bills this season in the red zone know that more often than not, when teams want those last few yards to score, they simply run it down our throats and get those yards. The stops have been rare. There have been flashes of this team stopping the run, and some of it is a leaning curve for our linebackers (I love the way Milano plays, but Lorax gets it done when it comes to filling a hole and stopping the run - that is just his years on earth and a bit of a bigger frame), Milano is ahead of Edmunds as it goes to finding the right gap to fill, but can get blown up if any blockers get to his level and gets a hand on him. If they miss, the kid is usually "money" bringing someone down. Some I think is just a lack of push by Star, but I have seen flashes from Jordan Phillips... he reminds me a bit of Pat Williams in his build and Jerry Hughes in his attitude. He plays with a lot of passion and the coaches just have to figure out how to reign in the "stup" and keep the rest. With all the shuffling of parts along the d-line (up and down from the practice squad this year if you look through transactions) I feel like the coaches know they are not there, but Phillips could play a role. Ol' Ted knows a thing or two about leverage and stopping the run, sure some of it could be "back in my day....", but we all know and so do the Bills coaching staff that there needs to be some improvements. Ted does not have to be worried that they are "satisfied" with what they have as it has been clear with the Star signing and grabbing Phillips that they are not.

In a perfect world yes, but in real life things happen between the whistles that most fans don't see, and refs rarely catch or call. There is another world of rules where players police themselves, where dirty or dangerous plays are corrected and not by the refs. You ask most coaches and they look for players that have a bit of nasty in them to defend themselves and others on the team. You may not need a whole line like that, but you have to have a few. Think of the NHL, where there is always that guy who can keep the other team from targeting your franchise players. Did you notice how many of our receivers were coming off the field during the Detroit game because they had been gouged in the eyes accidentally.... over and over. This happens in football, the refs do not protect everybody out there, what does is the knowledge that most teams will find a way to police the behavior. Obviously, Turley took it to a whole new visible level, but I want our guys defending our guys between the whistles and everywhere else.

You can't see it from that clip, but on that play Robinson was behind Brooks and had his facemask and was yanking him off the ground with his neck twisted to the side - literally trying to break his neck. I have no qualms with what Turley did and I can just about guarantee that Robinson did not pull a stunt like that again... Not looking for cheap, but if the refs are not going to defend Allen during a game, I want to see our players step up. Rather see that, than Allen in traction waiting for the NFL to levy a fine later that week that amount to peanuts that more than a few dirty players are willing to pay.