VW82
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Posts posted by VW82
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2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:
Bad idea. Let him play to gain valuable experience.
Maybe that's the right answer, but there's a risk/reward to both sides of the argument. Right now he has to be dangerously close to teammates completely losing confidence in him. He's been that bad. If that happens you're not that far removed from the player losing his confidence, and once that happens you're in real trouble. Sometimes you have to save the player from himself.
Allen is going to get another chance regardless, and everyone would understand if Bills pulled him. McD will take the hit for starting him too early.
The downside to sitting him is he loses 2-3 games while we likely squander away the season when he could have been developing. The downside to continue playing him if he doesn't get better fast is you might lose the team, and support for bringing Allen back as the starter next year. He'll be seen as the main reason our season went to crap (which is dangerous because it's true). I'd rather take the loss of 2-3 games development, and take some pressure off the kid. Let him regroup. Let the team and fans see it's not just the QB screwing things up out there. This elbow injury provides a perfect cover 2 (pun intended).
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2 hours ago, mjt328 said:
As of this moment (after Week 6 of the 2018 season), Josh Allen is the worst starting quarterback in the NFL. And it's not even close. The other rookies (Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen) all look light-years ahead of him.
Allen wasn't ready in Week 2. And a month later, he's still not even close to ready. Instead of small improvements being made to his game, I personally think he's taking steps backwards. His accuracy and mechanics are all over the place. And they don't appear to be getting better. It's one thing to be hesitant when progressing through reads. But he even hesitates on quick slants. His pocket presence is awful, and he consistently bails on clean protection instead of stepping up.
I'm not worried about the 2-4 record. I'm not worried about him simply struggling. I'm worried about whether our staff is doing the right thing by playing him right now. Maybe he would be better off sitting the bench for awhile. Maybe not. I really don't know.
What worries me the most, is that Sean McDermott doesn't seem to have a solid grasp on what to do either.
Good post. The thing that worries me the most is that he isn't getting better. He's making the same rookie mistakes he was making in the preseason. That should be a huge red flag for the coaching staff.
Our defense is playoff caliber. The problem is we can't move the ball, and that starts with Allen. He's putting the team in such bad positions, and because of that we have to be super conservative with the play calling which only exacerbates the issue. He doesn't have one strength we can lean on right now and build an attack around. Instead, it's all about hiding his many weaknesses and the QB position is too important to be successful like that.
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We don't know the extent of Allen's elbow injury yet, but IMO it doesn't matter. This is a perfect opportunity for the Bills to pull him off the field for a few games and let him gain a little perspective.
Prior to the injury, Allen was terrible today...again. He was just as likely to get injured running the ball along the sideline and getting drilled by that Houston LB in the first half when he chose not to run out of bounds. He missed multiple open receivers. On 3rd and goal, he ran out of the pocket when there was no pressure, and short sided himself with only one available receiver (Jones) who was covered. Allen didn't seem to understand Houston had a spy on him so he couldn't just run it in. We've seen him do this several times now, including preseason.
Peterman's career in Buffalo is over whether he gets cut or not.
It's still early, but Josh isn't getting better. He doesn't understand what's happening pre-snap. He has a tendency to run backwards at the slightest hint of pressure. He's frequently wildly inaccurate with his throws. He makes bad decisions.
Anderson isn't the perfect solution, but right now he's the best option short-term for the team, and long-term for Allen's development. The kid needs a breather. He needs to watch and learn.
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4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:
Do hang around as Josh Allen improves with your "observations" dont go running into a hole.
Believe me I'll be first in line to eat crow if it means Josh is figuring it out. 20 years of sh!tty QB play has me a little on the cynical side.
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1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:
He is also turning the ball over at the worst times and his team is not winning
The turnovers haven't been great though he's had a few really unlucky ones. I'd argue his team isn't winning because their defense sucks and their head coach shouldn't be a head coach.
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2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:
Really?
Because raider fans def dont feel that way....they feel that they got a guy who had a ton of promise in that first year and then backslid badly.....right now the guy is an interception machine and cant put hi team on his back and win
Not saying that is gonna be Mahommes because I honestly dont know......but lets not act like Carr is playing well right now
Odd post. Carr is 5th in yards, 4th in completion percentage, and 8th in YPA, Just going to throw this out there but it's possible Carr is just fine.
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I'm amazed at how resilient some of you guys are in your faith that Allen will come through this ok. Like, even Mitch Trubisky wasn't this raw as a rookie. It's so scary.
This article did a great job of highlighting a bunch of the issues I've seen over the first five weeks plus preseason. Again, so much of this has absolutely nothing to do with the supporting cast. If you're still claiming it does, you didn't read the article or watch the video evidence, or any of the games really.
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18 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:
I think VW82 has a good point. We just can't assume that Allen is our franchise QB. Time will tell. Where I might differ from VW82 (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) is that I don't think that we will be able to pull the plug on Allen after just this season if he doesn't develop as much as we'd like. It might take more than a single season for him to develop ala Manning and Farve. Look at Goff, a total bust his rookie year who blossomed his second because of better coaching. I also think it is fair to point out that Allen doesn't have the strongest supporting cast right now to help his development. I don't think that is making excuses for him, just stating a fact.
Like many here, I would have preferred Allen sit the entire year and learn behind a vet QB like Mahomes did, but here we are throwing him into the deep end of the pool and yelling at him to move his arms and kick his feet. I am a big McBeane supporter, but if you want to lay the lion's share of blame for this situation at McBeane's feet, I think that's fair.
We live in an impatient society where everyone wants results immediately. You cook some meals in a microwave and others in a crock pot. It might be that Allen is more of a crock potter. It will be worth the wait if he develops. I'm willing to give him an honest chance to do so. One season with this supporting cast is not a fair chance in my opinion.
If Allen doesn't show much improvement by year end here's how I'd handle it: 1. We have cap space and the roster is bereft of talent so clearly we should upgrade it regardless; 2. Acquire another QB (draft, sign, or trade) and make Allen fight for the job in training camp. I wouldn't be averse to picking a QB in the first round if the right guy was available.
If Allen can't win a QB competition going into year two then he can sit and be our back up for a year assuming we can't trade him. I don't think you can just hand someone a job two years in a row if they're not earning that right to play.
Obviously the hope is Josh improves by leaps and bounds this year and proves he's our franchise guy going into year two.
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10 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:
18 quarters wow. That's 270 minutes. When you put it that way and add in the character who is self promoting you've convinced me. No reason to give him a 271st.
You're the only one talking about him not playing anymore (even if it's just to be facetious). Obviously he needs more time.
The question I raised is does it make sense to commit a bunch of other resources next off season to build around Allen if he hasn't improved considerably from where he is today? I think that's a fair question. Many here seem to be taking the default position of "it's not his fault because he's a rookie and the Oline and WRs suck so we can't objectively rate his performance." That's crap. You have to take that into consideration but it's clear he'd be having the same problems with better teammates because of how tremendously raw he is. He's so raw it's fair to question whether he'll ever improve enough to be successful, and it's worth monitoring that improvement over the course of the year so we can make a more informed decision about him in the off season.
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11 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:
Wtf he is 4 games into his career and is 2-2.
He's played 18 quarters plus preseason of NFL football. It isn't too early to make some observations about where he is in his development. I'm not suggesting he's a finished product or won't make it. But the early signs suggest he has a long ways to go, and according to Andy Benoit maybe the longest out of any QB in recent memory as far as football IQ.
Again, I don't think we should just assume "better weapons" is the answer here. Let's see if he develops at all first before we hard commit to the Allen era.
10 minutes ago, The Wiz said:Look at what the Jets gave up to move up for a guy that is basically on par with Allen at this point a cost them 3 2nd rounders. I'd call it a steal to get Allen with the amount of picks given up.
And I'm not an Allen drum thumper, just pointing out what is wrong and what other teams are doing.
This isn't about the picks. If he's good it's worth it to overpay. I think virtually everyone who isn't a hard core Bills fan would agree that Allen is not on par with Darnold at this point. Not even close. That isn't to say that Allen might not one day surpass him. But in terms of where they are re NFL sophistication, Darnold and Baker are light years ahead. I haven't seen much of the AZ kid yet.
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9 minutes ago, The Wiz said:
Getting a new qb doesn't solve the other issues though. If you have the talent around you to succeed, it's more likely you will.
Agreed but we just spent a lot of draft capital to take Allen who right now doesn't look like an NFL QB. I think we need to figure that out because if he doesn't dramatically improve there's no amount of talent we can put around him that will allow this team to succeed in a way that makes sense long-term.
The worst thing we can do is pretend like we have the QB position fixed, go out and spend our cap and draft picks to build around Allen only to realize after the fact that he can't play. Now we're back to where to were two years ago: capped out, without the right leadership, and needing to rebuild.
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You guys keep coming back to the Oline and WRs. If we swapped Oline and WR groups with the Rams we'd still have trouble moving the ball right now. That's how raw Josh is. The focus needs to be on determining if Allen can develop in his pre and post snap reads and with his accuracy enough to be a winning QB. If not, then we should be thinking about finding a new QB to develop rather than ignoring the problem and looking for players who might cover up his debilitating weaknesses.
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Look if Josh doesn't get much better and fast they have to. McD isn't going to just piss away the season on performances like GB and Tenn (which we almost lost because of Josh).
Allen is so raw right now. There's a good argument to suggest he'd actually benefit from sitting for a few games, and watching a vet QB go through the process of preparing to play and debriefing afterward. He might appreciate the opportunity more next time around.
Allen is still the future but you can't completely punt on the present in favour of one guy's future. It sends the wrong message to the team. He can play again when we're out of it.
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Bills should start him as soon as he's up to speed. Not necessarily for an extended period, just for a game or two so Josh can watch another QB go through the process.
Allen desperately needs to steepen the learning curve. He's just been atrocious out there, literally costing us games.
If he's even half as mentally tough as every claims he is, he'll take the benching like a champ and come back a much better player in a few weeks with a little more perspective on what it takes to be successful at this level.
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5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
This is actually something that can be accomplished.
1) Some of the sacks are not guys getting beat, they are protection failures. "How do they fail to see not one, but two, linebackers coming up the middle?"
Daboll: Fix it.
2) Allen is trying too hard at times and needs to throw it away and not take a 10 yd loss. He knows this. He says this. Hopefully he learns this.
3) I don't know about more conservative, but different gameplan, more appropriate for down and distance and with clear checkdowns all the time, Yes.
I think 80-90% of the protection issues and holding the ball too long is QB pre-snap stuff. It's not Daboll other than to whatever degree he isn't successfully developing Allen in that area.
If you blind-folded Brady or Rivers or Rodgers or any of the great pocket passers until after the ball was snapped, and forced them to diagnose coverage based solely on who moved where they'd hold the ball too long and get sacked just as frequently.
It's too much to ask of any QB to drop back and "find the open guy" every time without the benefit of some foresight. You need to be able to figure out what the defense is trying to do, and either know where you're going before the ball is snapped, or manipulate the defense into something favourable if that option isn't there. Allen has no chance without some level of sophistication at the line, and right now he's the least sophisticated QB in the NFL (and probably down the list compared to some of the current college guys as well). It's actually a testament to how naturally gifted he is that he's been able to have any success so far.
Tl;dr I'm not sure how much a different game plan will really help outside of the first scripted drive, or before the other team adjusts.
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58 minutes ago, QB Bills said:
Ughhh.. Shut up dilfer. Good is good.
If Allen flames out then he just wasn't good enough.
This is such a frustrating line of thinking to me.
Quick story from my youth: I went to university with this girl "Jenny" (her Canadian name) who was from rural China. We were in a bunch of classes together first year. She spoke English well enough to understand what was going on but still struggled badly. The rest of us were just so far ahead of her it wasn't fair. She legit flunked out and had to take a bunch of hundred level courses over again in the summer, and then again the next summer. The thing was Jenny was brilliant, way smarter and more naturally gifted than the rest of us, and ultimately medalled at congregation. But she was so close to flunking out and having to move back home. It really could have gone either way for her at various points that first year.
To ignore circumstance and context, and pretend like they don't play a massive role in the success of people is just plain ignorant. Good is not always good enough without a little help. If Allen flames out it will be because of a variety of factors, and will depend at least partly on the circumstance he flamed out in.
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36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
Do you happen to have a linky?
It's probably important to note here that Trent Dilfer had very positive things to say about Josh Allen pre draft:
Dilfer raved about Josh Allen’s traits and compared the Wyoming product to a “probably even more powerful” version of Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, but cautioned that he’s still a work in progress. “He has everything 1980s and 1990s football wanted in a quarterback,” Dilfer said. “He is big, strong, athletic, huge arm, tough physically, mentally. I mean, he’s got the trait makeup. “He’s not a great player yet. He needs to learn how to play the game better. What I’ve been talking about him is he’s a 650-horsepower engine that doesn’t have the car built around to sustain that horsepower. He needs to build the automobile. He needs to have the framework and the nurturing to handle that type of horsepower . . . I think, instead of a first-round player, I’d call him a first-round prospect. He needs to be developed, he needs time, he needs to be nurtured. But I absolutely would love to coach him, and I think he’ll be a star if handled properly in the NFL.”
So I don't think his intent is at all to put Allen down, rather to question the situation he's been put into.
Which I completely understand, because I question it myself.
On the other hand, I think it's important to remember that while Allen may resonate with Dilfer because they're both from central CA, etc there are key differences. Aptos, CA where Dilfer grew up is just south of Santa Cruz, right on Monterey Bay. That's a very different culture than Firebaugh. Dilfer was recruited to Fresno, where Allen aspired to go, and started for 2 1/2 yrs before bailing out before his Senior year. He had a lot of success, and expected to go to the NFL and have more success.
Allen had a much rougher road with a lot more adversity - needing to go Juco, writing 1000 letters trying to get a shot, then once he did get a shot busting up his shoulder and having to go through the rehab and battle his way back into form. While he had eligibility left because of his injury and his JUCO start, Allen graduated last December. In theory, all those experiences should help to make him stronger and more resilient.
Doesn't mean I think the way we're handling him is anywhere close to right. Or, to tie threads together, I question the "strategy"
Sorry forgot the link. It's up now.
Yes Dilfer loves Allen. I think his perspective closely resembled that of the concerned father who was watching his son needlessly go through the same trials and tribulations that he had 20 some years earlier. He repeatedly said how his heart was breaking for the kid. I think he genuinely cares, and believes in him too. It's the timing and the situation, or as you said "the strategy." Culture over everything, right?
The adversity aspect is interesting to me. In theory it makes a ton of sense. That said, if Josh is so much more mature because of the road he took to get to the NFL, why doesn't it show to people like Dilfer who claim he just isn't ready? There's a bit of a disconnect there.
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Trent Dilfer went on Ryen Russillo's podcast this week, and had a bunch of interesting takes on how teams should develop rookie QBs vs. how it was done in years gone by. His main take away was that most of the time young QBs today are ready to start right out of the gate. He was previously very against that idea.
Here's Dilfer on his own rookie year, and how that influences his thought process: "I was the worst player in all of football...and I just don't want to see that happen to other kids. Josh Alllen right now is the one that's ripping my heart out. Darnold should be playing. Rosen should be playing. Baker should be playing. I don't think Josh Allen should be playing. He comes up very similar background as me. Central Valley, California. Smaller school. I don't think he's ready for the bigness of the NFL, and he's not surrounded by enough good stuff - innovation, talent, whatever, the ten other things - that can make up for his lack of sophistication and experience."
"Every year I will identify a kid that is like me, his background is like me, you can see the writing on the wall that the chances of ruining this kid (by playing him too early) are better than the chances of making him a superstar."
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35 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:
I don't think Allen was the difference. First, the Vikings may have had a good defense last season, but they're struggling this season. 22nd in yards and 22nd in points.
Second, especially early in the season, you get these weird games where teams are mismatched for some reason. Second half of the season, everyone knows what everyone else is doing, and these weird blowout upsets don't happen so often.
Allen didn't have anyone to throw to against the Packers. Probably the Packers game planned for the things the Bills had success with against the Vikes, and the Bills didn't do any effective counter-planning. Plus, the Packers figured out where the weaknesses were in the Bills pass protection and exploited them, big time.
Allen absolutely was a contributor to the bad day. When things are going badly, rookie QBs have trouble responding effectively. They know how to do only those things they were prepared to do, and not much else. It's like a pitcher whose curve ball isn't working today. A rookie is stuck with throwing a lousy curve ball; a veteran finds other ways to get batters out. So Allen was certainly part of the problem. But that's why I pin the problem mostly on Daboll. He has to know that the Packers will adjust to what the Bills did in Minnesota, he has to figure out what those adjustments are likely to be, and he has to prepare Allen for that. Allen wasn't prepared.
Good points about the Vikings D. I still think Allen made a ton of plays happen in that first half and as a result the rest of the offense looked fine.
I disagree with you about Daboll, and I think McD does too. In his presser today, he's talking about "multiple hands in the cookies jar" wrt to the sacks and the pressures, and the need for Josh to do a better job with pre-snap stuff so he isn't constantly putting the offense in bad situations. He's talking about the need for Josh to stay healthy in order to improve, and how a bunch of the hits he's taking fall on his shoulders. I have to think these coaches understand the position they've put this kid in, and are doing everything they can to prepare him for the games. Josh just did a bad job of executing the game plan this week, and didn't know when to audible at the line when the defense was lined up in a way that might successfully counter the play call.
I'm back to agreeing with your earlier suggestion of having Daboll miked up in Allen's helmet. That doesn't work on the road due to noise, but it might work this week at home. Maybe that can be a one week teaching aid to help him "see" the pre-snap reads he needs to make, so he has a better idea of where to go with the ball right away.
I think Allen tanked the game in GB, and made everyone look worse than they were. Oline missed blocks because protections didn't get adjusted. Allen got sacked because he ran right into some of them. There were no dropped passes this game that I counted, just a bunch of wildly inaccurate throws. People question the lack of run game, but we were down and Packers were basically daring us to throw the ball. We couldn't, and that was the difference.
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I'd be interested to hear McD's response to this. Hopefully someone has the guts to ask the question. Does he tell the truth and pin it on the QBs? Taylor and Peterman had some ugly days last year, same with Allen and Peterman this year. That's the biggest reason for this.
I'd be curious to hear what he has to say about the defense though. I can't remember a D that was as boom or bust as it's been under McD.
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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
Here we have a trifecta of worst possible cases: rookie QB, weak OL, weak receiving corps, and OC who is calling games like a novice.
Food for thought. We put up 28 points in one half against what many considered to be one the best defenses in the NFL last year. Perhaps our OL, WRs, and OC aren't really that terrible? Perhaps they're just regular bad or even OK, and the difference is last week Allen played very well for one half, and this week he was awful.
I'm sure the there were others on the offense that had off days, but it feels like we're going out of our way to pin Allen's really bad day on everyone else.
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22 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:
You said the team is losing because of its rook qb....I present to you that we dont WIN last week without that rook QB...your trying to shed that as a bad light on Allen when what you shoudl be doing is looking at what he is capable of as he gains experience.
Right now this team has virtually NO playmakers on offense
Your not doing that....and your looking like a clown
You appear to have completely missed my point. The only clown-like thing going here on is your reading comprehension.
I agree we beat Vikings in large part because of Allen (and because Vikings no showed). I straight up said that. But we also lost to Pack mostly because of Allen too. This isn't about the Oline, or WRs, or play calling to nearly the degree that you or most other posters on here are making it out to be. It's about Allen looking like white Cam Newton for a half one week, and then next week he's making Ryan Leaf look like a HOFer.
McD is talking about multiple hands in the cookie jar wrt the sacks, and the need for better pre-snap reads to put our O in better positions in the first place during his presser today. Who do you think he's talking about there?
I just don't get the need to praise Allen when he does well, but then blame everyone else when he's atrocious. Some of you guys sound like soccer moms.
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7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:
Yes....because the other qb also faired so well
Of course its the rookie qb
Give it up
Just so I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that because Peterman was terrible for one half (and was also terrible last year on a team that made the playoffs), that means that it's really everyone else's fault, and not Allen's?
Here's a hot take for you. Last week Allen played well and we won by a lot. This week Allen played terribly and we lost by a lot. Perhaps the performance of our young QB is determining more of the outcome than you think.
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Josh Allen is having a rough go of it out there and is making everyone around him look really bad in the process. I get everyone else on this board thinks it's the opposite, but I assure you our QB is the root of the problem right now. Let's hope he figures it out, and fast.
If Anderson is physically able he should start next week
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted · Edited by VW82
This is a great point. He's losing the team, and once that happens you're not far away from the QB losing his confidence too. If we continue playing him, and the results don't change Allen will be seen as the reason our season fell apart (him and Peterman),. That's a dangerous position for a young QB, and it will put a lot of pressure on McBeane to bring in a new starting caliber QB in the offseason to compete. Now you're even further undermining Allen's confidence.