ChiGoose

Conspiracy is charged if a member of the conspiracy takes an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. Doesn't require success or even likelihood of success.

I'm sorry that whatever your media diet is, it has kept you in a bubble. They had a plan. It was dumb, unconstitutional, and illegal, but it was a plan and it was what they were trying to do. It's like a dumb version of the election of 1876 but on steroids. Here's the memo on their plan VP Pence, presiding over the joint session (or Senate Pro Tempore Grassley, if Pence recuses himself), begins to open and count the ballots, starting with Alabama (without conceding that the procedure, specified by the Electoral Count Act, of going through the States alphabetically is required). When he gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States. This would be the first break with the procedure set out in the Act. At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” – the language of the 12th Amendment -- is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe (here). A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected. Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe’s prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well. One last piece. Assuming the Electoral Count Act process is followed and, upon getting the objections to the Arizona slates, the two houses break into their separate chambers, we should not allow the Electoral Count Act constraint on debate to control. That would mean that a prior legislature was determining the rules of the present one — a constitutional no-no (as Tribe has forcefully argued). So someone – Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, etc. – should demand normal rules (which includes the filibuster). That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so. The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position -- that these are non-justiciable political questions – thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed. The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind.

Especially when you consider that their avowed plan was to halt or delay the counting so that it can be thrown to the individual states and/or they can execute the fake electors plan.

“When Michael, who was not present for the search, returned to Mar-a-Lago the next day to clean up her office space, she found the documents underneath a drawer organizer and helped transfer them to the FBI that same day, sources told ABC News.” By the way, this is how you avoid a charge. When you discover the documents, you immediately contact authorities and turn them over. It seems simple enough but apparently it was too hard for Trump.

Trump wrote to-do lists for assistant on White House documents marked classified: Sources “One of former President Donald Trump's long-time assistants told federal investigators that Trump repeatedly wrote to-do lists for her on documents from the White House that were marked classified, according to sources familiar with her statements. As described to ABC News, the aide, Molly Michael, told investigators that -- more than once -- she received requests or taskings from Trump that were written on the back of notecards, and she later recognized those notecards as sensitive White House materials -- with visible classification markings -- used to brief Trump while he was still in office about phone calls with foreign leaders or other international-related matters. The notecards with classification markings were at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate when FBI agents searched the property on Aug. 8, 2022 -- but the materials were not taken by the FBI, according to sources familiar with what Michael told investigators.”

My argument is that the evidence shows that basically the entire West wants Shokin fired, that it is US policy for Shokin to be fired and that Biden was acting with the consent of the President of the United States to get Shokin fired. In addition to that, there is also evidence that Shokin was just sitting on corruption investigations and that his firing would make it more likely that companies like Burisma would face real investigations. In the face of all of that, to say that Biden did this on his own as a favor to his son seems unbelievable.

Always more fun to go with the triple Xanatos gambit conspiracy than follow the facts to the simplest, most likely (boring!) conclusion. It’s probably a lot more fun to be with the feelings over facts crowd.

Remember when Hunter’s business partner testified that he was told that Shokin was “under control” and his firing would be not good for Burisma?

Well that’s certainly a fun fantasy that ignores the facts. Must be fun to be able to just make ***** up because it feels good. Question for you: when did the activities that Shokin was “investigating” occur and when did Hunter join Burisma?

Envoys pushed to oust Ukraine prosecutor before Biden “European and US officials pressed Ukraine to sack Viktor Shokin, the country’s former prosecutor-general, months before Joe Biden, the former US vice-president, personally intervened to force his removal, people involved in the talks said. Mr Biden did not act unilaterally nor did he instigate the push against Mr Shokin, despite suggestions to the contrary by supporters of US president Donald Trump, people familiar with the matter said. The circumstances of Mr Shokin’s sacking, which took effect in March 2016, have become a flashpoint in the impeachment saga enveloping US president Donald Trump. *** EU diplomats working on Ukraine at the time have, however, told the FT that they were looking for ways to persuade Kiev to remove Mr Shokin well before Mr Biden entered the picture. The push for Mr Shokin’s removal was part of an international effort to bolster Ukraine’s institutions following Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the armed conflict in the eastern part of the country. “All of us were really pushing [former Ukrainian president Petro] Poroshenko that he needs to do something, because the prosecutor was not following any of the corruption issues. He was really bad news,” said an EU diplomat involved in the discussions. “It was Biden who finally came in [and triggered it]. Biden was the most vocal, as the US usually is. But we were all literally complaining about the prosecutor.” Mr Shokin had been appointed prosecutor-general of Ukraine in February 2015, but the discussions in Washington and EU capitals about pushing for his removal started as early as April after he failed to follow through on a burst of expected early anti-corruption moves, one former US Treasury official said. Mr Biden entered the fray in December 2015, placing Mr Shokin’s removal at the top of his agenda on a visit to Kiev. “I know how the idea to have Shokin fired came up, and it wasn't Biden. His direct involvement came late in the game,” the former US Treasury official said. “” “We know Chan Gailey wasn’t fired for being a bad coach because Doug Marrone never won the Super Bowl. Gailey must have been fired for another reason.”

I don’t understand how people still buy this falsehood. It is well documented that basically the entire western world wanted the guy fired. Also, not only was he sitting on the Burisma investigation and not really moving it forward, the period of time in question was *before* Hunter Biden joined the board. So even if he was the anti-corruption crusader that he obviously wasn’t, Hunter wouldn’t be at risk from the investigation. It must be nice to be a right wing grifter because apparently people will believe absolutely anything even if all the evidence goes against it.

AP: Workers are on strike at all 3 Detroit auto makers for the first time in their union’s history "In addition to general wage increases, the union is seeking restoration of cost-of-living pay raises, an end to varying tiers of wages for factory jobs, a 32-hour week with 40 hours of pay, the restoration of traditional defined-benefit pensions for new hires who now receive only 401(k)-style retirement plans, pension increases for retirees and other items. Starting in 2007, workers gave up cost-of-living raises and defined benefit pensions for new hires. Wage tiers were created as the UAW tried to help the companies avoid financial trouble ahead of and during the Great Recession. Even so, only Ford avoided government-funded bankruptcy protection." Looks like many of the non-wage demands are about restoring policies that they gave up to save the companies during the recession. I think that's probably a good idea, but "40 hours pay for 32 hours of work" is a pretty bad look.

Yeah, Biden personally controls the Justice department, which is why they would never indict his son.

The indictment isn’t politics. It’s law enforcement.

Acquitted twice because of politics. He could have murdered someone on the senate floor and they wouldn’t have voted to impeach.

They labeled me the King because they can’t actually read. Doesn’t matter what I actually say, they have the reading comprehension of toddlers. Every time they bring it up, it’s just them bragging about their own idiocy, so I get a good chuckle out of it. Bernie was bad but Tulsi was far, far, worse.

Man, it must be nice to live in a fantasy world. Ignoring reality to just believe whatever feels good.

No they don’t. This is only true for the Very Online crowd. Regular Americans will see this for the farce it is.

So here’s a fun fact: I don’t get to choose who the nominee is.

I have a hard time believing Trump ends up testifying. No lawyer with two brain cells to rub together would want that guy on the stand defending himself.

I welcome it. It’s going to be great. A real fun ride. Either the GOP actually finds something and we don’t have to run Biden in 2024 or (more likely) they make complete asses of themselves right before an election. Win-win!

I cannot stress enough that whether or not a coup attempt would be successful is not relevant as to whether or not one was attempted. Also, if you think the plan was simply to overtake the building that day, you're missing quite a bit of the plot. Also, I do enjoy that your argument boils down to "MAGA people are too dumb to do a coup."

Judge Cannon Enters Protective Order in Trump Mar-a-Lago Case "On Sept. 13, Judge Aileen Cannon filed a protective order pertaining to classified information disclosed to former President Donald Trump and defense counsel in the Mar-a-Lago case. In July, the government filed a motion for a proposed protective order pursuant to Section 3 of the Classified Information Procedures Act “to prevent the unauthorized use, disclosure or dissemination of classified national security information and documents that will be reviewed by or made available to, or are otherwise in the possession of, Defendant and defense counsel.” Following a sealed hearing on Sept. 12, Judge Cannon granted the government’s motion." *** Trump's team had asked for him to be able to retain classified materials in his possession to prepare for his defense. Instead, Judge Cannon has ruled that the defense must access the classified materials in accordance with CISO policies and that a SCIF will be made available to the defense to prepare their case.

I find it interesting how all you ever do is post strawmen arguments and roll your eyes. Rarely do you ever contribute anything of substance. What are you getting out of this?

The GOP has a terminal case of Very Online Brain. They are way out in the fringes of internet conspiracy and think that the average American is as well (they are not). They are going to put up evidence that Hunter Biden is corrupt (he is) and that Joe Biden is wealthy (he is) and they are going to assume that everyone is going to make the connection without hard evidence of Joe Biden taking bribes (they won't). They are still reliant on people believing debunked falsehoods like the insanity around the Shokin firing. It's going to be an ongoing Congressional equivalent of the Pepe Silvia scene from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and the average American is going to be turned off by it, thinking the GOP is unserious. In the runup to the election, the GOP is going to be shouting to the voters that they shouldn't be trusted to run the government because they are children. Not to mention that in the best possible scenario for the GOP, that they actually find hard evidence that Joe Biden was personally involved with corruption and bribes. In which case, his campaign is probably over and the Dems have to nominate someone else. Since most Dems didn't want Biden to run and are concerned about his age, this is actually a pretty decent outcome for the left.