HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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On 11/7/2023 at 2:56 PM, HappyDays said:
Do you agree with some of the coaching/schematic concerns noted in this thread and others? Lack of cohesion to the route progressions, failure to layer concepts off top of each other, failure to scheme players open, predictable scheming etc. Or do you think it is still more player execution than anything? I just can't figure out how we'll go 5+ drives at a time looking like a completely hopeless offense, sandwiched in between unstoppable drives.
After watching, Dorsey did scheme Diggs open multiple times that game. I don’t think we’re doing enough of it. He relies so heavily on our route conversions getting guys open, but when guys fail to execute them properly it’s an issue, and that’s everyone.
Dorsey schemed Diggs into a 1v1 vs a backer and he cut inside vs inside leverage instead of cutting outside like he should have. Josh anticipated the outside cut and was lucky to hold onto the ball when he pumped because he was anticipating the outbreaking route.
Josh is also holding onto the ball too long still and not just dumping it down and letting guys get what they get. It puts us behind the sticks or doesn’t give us a chance on a lot of 3rd downs.
I’ll make a big post later with all my thoughts from the game.
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8 hours ago, Scott7975 said:
I wished you had the time to do what cover 1 does. Id watch that all day over them. It's obvious you know what the hell you are talking about. I think those guys are ok but not to the extent of your knowledge.
Appreciate that. Wish I could do more as well. I was considering starting a thread just for breaking down plays you guys wanted to know more on, but wasn’t sure how much it’d be utilized.
7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:He also stared it down like a tractor beam. Nothing much to misdirect savvy NFL DBs.
To be fair to Josh, and for full clarity here, his read is the corner so yeah from the broadcast it looks like he was just staring at Gabe.
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5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:
I have another question for @HoofHearted
on the INT, is Davis supposed to read DB outside leverage and stem/stack w inside release vs that coverage? It almost looks like Allen expects that which is why he pumps it once before yoloing the hole shot
No, it's an MOR (Mandatory Outside Release) route. Josh just tried to hit the hole shot into Cover 2 and underthrew it. This has been a recurring theme for him this year.
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4 hours ago, theRalph said:
You're missing the point. Here's an analyst that's more creative than our offensive staff. Pretty And he's ripping Dorsey—carefully—on their own channel no less lol.
What was creative about what he said?
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4 hours ago, HappyDays said:
Do you agree with some of the coaching/schematic concerns noted in this thread and others? Lack of cohesion to the route progressions, failure to layer concepts of top of each other, failure to scheme players open, predictable scheming etc. Or do you think it is still more player execution than anything? I just can't figure out how we'll go 5+ drives at a time looking like a completely hopeless offense, sandwiched in between unstoppable drives.
Haven’t had a chance to spin through the A22 outside of finding a few snaps that I saw posted on here so I can’t really say for the Bengals game. I will say we do have quite a few concepts that aren’t full field reads (zone beater one side and man beater the other) so the notion that there’s not full field cohesion of routes is real but it’s intentional. May be able to spin through some stuff tomorrow and have a better answer for you.
4 hours ago, Einstein said:
This doesn’t look like an RPO to me. If so, Allen did not give any indication of RPO and Diggs did not seem ready... at all… for a pass.
I also don't think i've seen a tackle pull on any RPO pass this year. Have you? I'll have to check my notes.Came back to edit; Found an RPO with Spencer Brown pulling a couple weeks ago.
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The overhang (conflict defender who was the read) was the DB who folded in to make the tackle. He was so wide initially that the read was essentially predetermined as long as he stayed there. Yeah we’ve run a couple of RPO off of Dart this year both left and right with Dawkins or Brown pulling - can’t remember exactly which games they were in but I remember commenting on it on here when they did. Gabe got a really good gain on one of them at or close to the High RZ area on one of them.
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24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:
Wanted to ask
Is there a read presnap on defense where LBs can ignore playaction rules or can they just be so confident in their front winning they can stay home in coverage?
With the increase in the RPO game teams don't teach attack steps to LBs anymore. Instead they'll just bounce and trigger late vs the run.
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2 hours ago, Einstein said:
2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.
He should have - they were in slide protection. Morse looks lost...
3 hours ago, Einstein said:5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.
They're not pretending to be an option - they are an option. It's an RPO. We've gotten a lot of mileage out of this concept this year. What's concerning to me is why did we reduce the splits down? They're playing 3 over 2 so there's no play to be had on the pass - the give is the correct call - but we're doing ourselves no favors with the stack that tight to the formation.
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1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:
Pretty sure @HoofHeartedcan confirm this is literally an example of making multiple (2) reads deep/shallow based on safety coming down on crosser or not
I mean we have seen Allen hit this throw so many times over his career it's ridiculous to say he doesn't see it, it's been in the playbook for 5 years now
This specific play is Allen just taking the 1v1 matchup. This is what I've tried to get across earlier in the year - if Allen likes the backside 1v1 matchup he's going to take it regardless of the three man concept. Saw this a lot this game on the backside of 3x1.
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2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:
And see, that is why I said I can only go off what Franco was claiming you said in another thread, which was that it was a “Dart” which it definitely wasn’t. But it appears he was misquoting you by mistake.And I agree, it could have been a duo and I will go watch it back again and look for the direction of the OL vs the direction Murray went with the ball as the duo the RB typically goes to the opposite side the OL is blocking. I only went back to look to see if it was a dart as Franco said and it was clear as day on the snap it wasn’t so left it at that.
I’ve certainly said in the past that we were running Dart and not Draw in instances we were running Dart. There’s a number of concepts we’re running from Gun and the vast majority of them are not Draw.
As far as the shotgun vs. under center debate about the RB hitting it with speed from under center. That’s all well and good if you’re running ISO that hits straight downhill, but we’ve been running a ton of gap scheme that hits off-tackle. It’s timing based - not run downhill as fast as you can.
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3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:
No disrespect to anyone, but he is incorrect if he is saying the 3rd and goal run on the 1 yard line was a dart against the Bucs.
A draw is a run play that is made to look like a pass play, hence why it is run a lot of shotgun. It is meant to attack the A gap, which is exactly what Murray did and was done right off the snap from shotgun. The dart is different than the "draw" play and more resembles a power and is where you have the tackle pulling. Our tackles did not pull on the 3rd down shotgun run and it was a clear draw.
I can not tell you about the week before as I did not go back and look at it, but I am pretty sure it was also a draw, but again, can't confirm without rewatching it which I will try and do later.
I am not saying we don't run a dart in our playbook, but the goal line play against the Bucs was a draw and not a dart, and I don't think the one the week before was either but still need to see it again to confirm. But honestly, it doesn't matter...dart or draw, it was a terrible play call.
Never said it was Dart. In fact I’ve said in another thread it was Duo. So, no, it was not draw…
Additionally they could have run the same concept from under center and it still wouldn’t have been successful because Gabe got blown up.
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1 hour ago, Buffalo619 said:
Yes. Shotgun pistol draw to be specific. Never ever want to see that again on the One. I believe This is what Is going to cost Dorsey his job.
If we want to get into specifics Shotgun and Pistol are two totally different things, and we haven't run a draw at the 1 yard line... ever.
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1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:
what would you hope the qb does when the coverage is all over the motion man, try to fit it in anyway or improvise and try to do something off script?
obviously it’s 4th and 1 and immediate pressure.
also should the motion guy be someone faster/quicker?
It's a quick hitter on a rub route - give your guy a chance. Allen isn't reading coverage after he gets it based on the initial motion.
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8 hours ago, HappyDays said:
So what I didn't like about this play call is you essentially take the ball out of your best player's hands on 4th down. No different than a goalline fade as far as how much of a role Allen has on the play. Why are we removing his playmaking ability from the equation entirely?
Dorsey had an excellent game plan and excellent play designs for the most part but he nearly screwed it up with goofy play calls to end our first two drives.
As a DC I can tell you how hard it is to execute a full field bump in man coverage. It puts a ton of stress on a defense and it’s tough to get communicated and everyone on the same page all within fractions of seconds especially considering we haven’t shown that before on film.
Dorsey knew what the defense was going to be in - understood the structure of the defense and designed a play to put stress on that structure. At the end of the day that’s really all you want to see out of your OC. Those guys on the other side of the ball get paid to make plays too.
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36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:
OK now wait - I may have chosen still shots poorly to look like maybe Kincaid , but was there a mesh concept in that play? Maybe I don't understand enough about what mesh is. To me, it's crossing routes from each side of the formation - shallow drag routes from either side. Like this explanation in Football 101.
So Shakir didn't run a crossing route (or any route), and Kincaid's motion was R to L pre-snap. Is that still a mesh?
Sorry, a mesh is the exchange point between a RB and QB (EDIT: see photo below). That’s something totally different than a mesh concept in the pass game.
16 minutes ago, Motorin' said:Mesh routes are really anytime two receivers run routes crossing within a yard of each other for the purposes of creating a legal pick in man to man coverage.
But like a lot of teams in goal line, the Bucs weren't in straight up man to man. They played a zone match scheme where the two defenders to the left side of the field were responsible for playing man coverage on the receiver entering their zone.
So while Shakir was in position to create a natural pick on LB White, who maned up Kincaid as he ran through his zone, the outside CB was never going to follow Shakir out of his outside zone. He covered Shakir man to man until he exited his zone, which allowed him to maintain leverage on Kincaid and apply man cover technique as he entered the outside cb's zone.
Nobody was getting open on that side of the field with take call and that defense.
No, it was true man to man. They just bumped the coverage. It’s the same idea as when you see bunch or stack sets from receivers. You still play man coverage but you’re passing off routes so that you don’t get picked.
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1 hour ago, Beck Water said:
What was the shotgun 4th and 1 from the Tampa 1 yd line, which targeted Kincaid (and was deflected by the CB)?
I thought it might have been an RPO but just PA?
(and what was up with Shakir? I assume his assignment is to block the LB who moved when Kincaid crossed the formation pre-snap, but could he take him out of the play as well with a route into the EZ?)
It's discussed at 12:13 in the JT O'Sullivan piece as banjo coverage
https://youtu.be/kom757F9Qys?feature=shared
Edit: HA! I got it to let me add 3 screenshots by re-sizing to a total below 180kB, and did them all at once with this site
No RPO. They used a mesh just to hold a backer and eyes but the whole play design was to set a pick for Kincaid in the flat. Bucs did a really good job bumping the entire coverage.
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Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:
And won so good
Lol. Which play were you referring to though? The Murray run?
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19 hours ago, Big Turk said:
Watched another video where a former College and NFL QB(lots of teams, practice squads, etc, no NFL games) and he called the defense "33 Weak"? It's the first play breakdown in the video and he talks about it for like 5 minutes.
Is that something similar to what you are saying?
No, he’s just saying he thinks it’s a weak rotation cover 3 which is what @Einstein has been saying. Saban calls it Skate but it follows the same rules as what I posted above to 3x1 sets it’s just the people that change (which is why Saban takes a holistic approach when teaching coverages to his players and uses an X instead of a position during initial install. The rules always stay the same but the people can move). Again though, based on eyes, footwork, and drops, they’re not running Cover 3. They’re in a split safety coverage.
11 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:
Right! let’s just agree RPO inside the 5 is a no go. Let’s do conventional thereWe didn’t run any RPO inside the 5 this past week that I recall.
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20 hours ago, Beck Water said:
I wish it were easier to put in screenshots. I have to re-size them and it still seems to limit me to 2
Right? That’s my biggest deterrent when I think about making big posts to breakdown schemes etc. I’ve done a few in the past breaking down a single play but it’s a pain in the butt if I want to post more than one image.
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On 10/20/2023 at 12:36 PM, Einstein said:
6) Cook has a significantly higher YPC on man/gap runs than zone.
Just now actually looking through these lol. Look at the success rates of both. They're both really good. Gives some context as to when we're running zone concepts though.
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9 minutes ago, colin said:
ya, that's a good point. our d doesn't miss a ton of tackles which has been documented for years now, and they don't rally like mad men to the ball.
The gif was for your explanation of why we miss tackles and trying to tie it to the scheme.
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2 hours ago, colin said:
well, you miss fewer tackles when guys don't have to run far and fast to get to the ball carrier. so the old new england 3-4 d with gargantuan linebackers and rough dirty safeties will miss fewer tackles. part of that is because they selected for and emphasized tackling more, part is because it's easier for a bigger guy to tackle provided they don't have to chase teh ball as much, and partly because in that kind of d, fewer guys have a shot at the ball, so you might miss 2 tackles and the ball goes 80s for a td, but in our d you can have 4 missed tackles on a 10 yard pitch and catch (where the 5th guy made it).
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50 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:
Yes I'm definitely aware they all aren't actual draw plays....
It's what I've always called those plays because it's habbit
You and about 95% of fans lol. Don’t sweat it - just trying to educate the masses!
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28 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:
that should make them angry and fired up. Play a more aggressive D. If Elam has any use (assuming he is still on the roster) it would make sense to use his man skills against a Cincy WR.
He was terrible in man coverage when he started those two games.
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35 minutes ago, Chaos said:
It seems like tackling is a lost art in the NFL overall. But Bill's fans perspective's may be skewed because we may be particularly bad at tackling. I am perfectly willing to blame injuries as the primary reason for the bad tackling, but it does not really change the fact that the tackling is bad.
Top tackling teams. Feel free to hate PFF. I just don't anywhere else to source tackling data of any type.
Is there anything on there that has yards allowed after a missed tackle? I'd be more interested in that then general tackle rate.
Some All-22 Observations from Cinci
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Yep, and there’s nothing to be had - just take the easy throw and move on. It’s infuriating.