HoofHearted
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Posts posted by HoofHearted
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Just now, Big Turk said:
To be fair he did mention in a post below that this isn't dissimilar to other teams, just that other teams do a better job dressing it up better at times.
Also, since you brought up spacing...do you feel the Bills have a spacing problem too often on routes? Have seen this brought up before many times going back to last year where receivers are often times very close to each other downfield on plays when it would seem to make more sense to have them further apart to create better windows and less defenders in the area. I get that in some concepts like rubs and stacks, etc the receivers will be close together at the line, but usually those players all end up in different places on the field and not close together like seems to be the case on some plays where Bills players are covered well.
Every instance of a spacing issue that I've seen posted on here or by people on social media is a still shot of us running mesh. That's the whole design of the concept. Traditionally it's a rub concept vs man, and if it's zone those two players will sit in the empty spaces created in the underneath zones. We run a slightly varied version that makes things even easier for our receivers running the mesh concept. Essentially they're running their mesh crossers regardless of coverage, which eliminates the post-snap read. We then sit a player in that low hole area directly behind the backers so that we have an option vs zone coverage. Essentially Josh waits for the crossers to pull the zone defenders back out with them and then hits the Spot sitting in the middle of the formation. Saw this thrown to Diggs this week, and is one of Dorsey's favorite concepts on 3rd and short to medium because it's an all coverage beater. Outside of that I haven't seen anything else that has guys running close together.
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3 minutes ago, boyst said:
The defenses have caught up with the offenses. It's fun to see. Cover 4 and cover 6 are making great leaps.
What do you mean by this?
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45 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
This is of much more concern...basically Dorsey is making it simple for defenses to defend them out of certain formations because they run the same patterns/route combinations and do not give any window dressing to make it look like something different at all. Makes it easy to know what's coming. This is virtually inexcusable. Motions/shifts/varied look/formation...SOMETHING to make it look different and give them something to think about, but nope, same thing every time in certain formations. He did a LOT of window dressing against Miami and virtually none in the games since.
This isn't anything crazy or specific to us. This is every team ever in football. There's a finite number of route concepts that can be run out of different sets due to alignment, spacing, etc. Tendencies are going to form. I can assure you this isn't the only concept we're running out of any of our 2x2 sets. This narrative he's pushing that Okereke played outside his scheme to make a play is laughable. The Giants were in Cover 6. Okereke is the 3 Quick player in that coverage scheme. When the back releases out Knox becomes the 3Q player and so that's why Okereke is pushing towards him. Josh is trying to throw the anticipation ball and hit it right off of Okereke's back, but the issue is Okereke is squared up. He's not man turning with Knox. Josh probably didn't recognize it was Cover 6 because it was a half field read, but if he lofts that ball the backside Safety has to drive the Dig in Cover 4 and Knox would have walked in for a touchdown.
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3 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:
Sure I get that, but they're not doing ANY of this stuff at all in games and the misdirection plays also seem to be at a minimum. Deception and disguise seem to have evaporated the from the playcalling. The question is why?
I'd say the misdirection stuff has been on par with what we got out of Daboll.
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2 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:
At this point in time it's just conversation with Milano being out. But if we were to get into some weather games, I think it would be better against the run game to have the 3 of them on the field. As it sits now, nickel is probably our best option.
I’m assuming your thought process there is because of size?
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1 hour ago, LyndonvilleBill said:
As you can see from my avatar, I like Williams. Bernard is playing great imo, and when Millano gets back I don't think you can keep him off the field (as long as he is himself). I'd like to see all 3 of them on the field and see what they can do together.
Why does that make us better I guess is what I’m really asking?
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2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:
Ok I don’t know football terminology like you do so that’s probably where our disconnect is. I’ll explain what I am calling a draw. Shot gun. Allen takes the snap and runs over to standing still Cook and gives him the ball. That play has been run a ton. Not just 3 times. It hasn’t been as good as the handoffs we’ve seen this week and also some of last week.
Right, we’ve run that action with multiple run concepts this year (draw, inside zone, dart, GH counter) and it’s been successful out of specifically the gap scheme stuff more so than the zone/draw. The timing on it on the gap scheme stuff looks really good which is probably why they’ve stuck with it there and moved away from it on the zone scheme stuff.
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2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:
I just watched that video
He keeps saying we are running this rpo out of duo concept but looks like inside zone
He calls every run with an in-line tight end duo lol. We ran ISO all last week and he called it duo every time…
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17 hours ago, LyndonvilleBill said:
Do we have to? Personally, I'd like to see more 4-3. And if Milano and Williams can cover in pass plays, it'd be nice to have the extra LB against the run as well. I know it's not our base D, but... TB, Milano and Williams... I like the thought. 😁
Why? Genuinely asking.
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11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:
He sounded so unsure of himself in his press conference.
Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣
1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.
Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.
Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.
But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others.
Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.
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44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:
But even you know the motion is just window dressing...
Sure it works vs inferior coached teams ... But don't take the bait ... Keep gap integrity, hands up in the passing lane
Of course I would like to see our offense move into the 21st century... But I'm not impressed by all the pre-snap movements... We've all seen it
We are both defensive guys... You know it's window dressing ... Good defenses don't take the bait
But on that note , I would take more pre snap movement because the NFL seems to struggle with it... Lots of teams are not disciplined
Depends what you're doing with it. If it's just a jet motion to get eyes going one way and then you run the opposite, sure, though it's still forcing defenses to communicate on the fly and, more often than not, move at the snap of the ball. I don't understand why offenses don't do this with every run concept tbh - it's so simple and can give you such an advantage. Whats more intriguing to me is the change of strength motions because now you're getting teams misaligned unless they adjust with the motion, which again gets guys moving at the snap. And then what Miami is doing with motions putting force players in conflict is really good stuff.
16 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:These were different plays than the draw plays to Cook in the past. In the past Josh was taking the ball and running over to a RB standing still. These run plays the RB ran to Josh and took the ball with some steam.
We've run draw maybe 3 times this year. Last week our backfield action looked just as you described when we ran Dart out of gun and it hit last week too.
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Elam actually played a really good game. Got beat on the slot fade in Cover 1. Didn't look good playing press man at all. Lost at the LoS in true press every single time except for once iirc because of dead feet, lunging, and/or either jamming with two hands or trying to use the wrong hand. Played almost exclusively man or MOD. Looked most comfortable press bailing. I think he had a handful (6-7) snaps of Cover 2 and maybe 3 or 4 snaps of Quarters and looked really good in both. He was fantastic in run support.
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17 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:
Nothing even that radical, A reverse, a fake reverse, a half back option, a flea flicker, the RB option that throws back to Josh (done successfully twice by Daboll). Any of these plays thrown into a game would be great to see.
The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.
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3 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:
Is this a concept used within a match zone?Rewatching from the broadcast recording and Play 2 which you indicate is Cover 3 MOD….looks like press man from the snap…so in all likelyhood you got your zone coverage but due to the fact they’re in 12 personnel and run only two routes, corners are essentially playing man ?
Correct.
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2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:
Am I the only one who needs an index from @HoofHearted’s acronyms 😂
Appreciate all the info and work you’re sharing. Wish I understood some specifics of the lingo (PAP, MOD, MoF)….
I would like to assume I know what they are if I knew what they stood for?
Go Bills!
PAP - play action pass
MOD - man outside and deep (this is a technique played by corners)
MOF - middle of the field (can refer to a player or a coverage - MOF Closed Coverages are 1 and 3 - MOF Open Coverages would be your two shell 2, 4, or 6)
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7 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:
The one thing that irks me most about vanilla Dorsey is that he doesnt really challenge the talent on this offense with innovative play designs. I have not seen much in the way of trickery or schemes that are complex. Does he not trust these guys to pull off complicated plays? Daboll had confidence in Josh to run that kind of offense but Dorsey seems a little scared. What has resulted is a predictable offense that defensive coaches can neutralize (if they plan properly).
What would you qualify as trickery or complex schemes? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to be sarcastic.
17 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:Dorsey’s shotgun runs are the equivalent of guessing C on an multiple choice exam when you don’t know what to do but are still confident you’ll ‘pass’
Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.
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3 hours ago, HappyDays said:
This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.
You can find plays like that in every offense in every game, usually more than once. Allen is following the rules of the play and sometimes it just so happens that a WR ends up wide open while unfortunately not being part of the progression. It seems that a general rule built into this offense is "if things break down, look to Diggs first." A lot of still frame all-22 analysis is not being entirely fair to what the QB has to process in a matter of 3 seconds on every play after the snap.
It was more so Josh holding the ball too long at times this week.
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3 minutes ago, Franco_92 said:
Is this also called "Hoss"?
It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.
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14 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.
My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure.
I didn't see any of this in the first half of the game.
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19 hours ago, Bob Jones said:
Really enjoyed watching this. IMHO, the guy does a great job explaining how & why the Bills offense is so inept.
And yes, it is also noted that the Giants defense did a really good job, but I think the schemes, and subsequently, the plays, by the Bills are garbage. They definitely need to bring in an offensive guru who won't put 3 receivers in a 10 yard circle, for one.
Do you understand the reasoning behind the design of the concept?
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45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:
Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.
Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.
Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.
Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.
Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.
Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.
Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.
Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.
Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.
Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.
Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.
Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.
Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.
Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.
Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.
Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.
Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.
Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.
Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.
Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.
That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.
Why the eyeroll @Chandler#81?
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Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.
Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.
Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.
Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.
Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.
Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.
Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.
Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.
Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.
Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.
Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.
Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.
Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.
Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.
Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.
Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.
Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.
Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.
Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.
Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.
That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.
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11 hours ago, cgg716 said:
I understand nickel is our base D, but how many times must one get shredded on the ground before you change it up sometimes? Or even just read a situation? Clappy calling his NBA time outs last night to act like he's making changes, winds up with 5"11 Johnson on 6"6 Waller, just lucky they didn't call the penalty. The lack of adjustments and awareness is mind numbing
1st Run: Long Trap
A lot going on during this play. Initial formation is Wing Twins which they shifted to Slot Trips which they then motioned to Ace. All of this is just eye candy and to get our second level defenders moving on the snap. They running Trap so it's double downs front side and seal hinge the backside - Guard pulls to kick our defensive end. Rousseau steps over himself on initial footwork which doesn't allow him to squeeze the down as he should and widens the gap. Bernard bumps back to a 10 on the motion - plays with great eyes - recognizes the guard pull and gets his eyes to the down/down. His responsibility is to fit outside of the down/down which he works to though he engages at 4 yards instead of being able to press it at the LoS. Williams plays with good eyes - sees the guard pull, but hesitates scraping over the top when he sees the open playside A that Poyer is now responsible for. If Williams scrapes as he should it's a gain of maybe 3 or 4 even with the lack of a squeeze from Rousseau. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play.
2nd Run: GH Counter
Again the Giants used shifts and motions to try to affect our front. This time we had a stunt on so the effect was minimal. Same kind of concept bringing the jet motion as eye candy to pull our second level defenders eyes off their keys. This time Rousseau does a better job of squeezing the down/down and boxing the pulling guard and compressing the gap. We were bringing Poyer on a stunt so he fits off the down/down and leverages the tight end working to wrap. Williams looks unsure whether he's suppose to fit outside or inside the wrapping Tight End, but end up putting himself in the right position late, but isn't in a position where he could breakdown and make the tackle. If he makes the tackle it's a 1 yard gain. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play.
There's your two big plays. Again Nickel had zero impact on either of these. Taron was pulled out of the box in both situations. Bad technique from Rousseau on the first one and just indecision from a young player were the cause for the big gains.
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10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:
Correct. And logically it's the right choice. If the defense is in man, the best matchup 100% of the time is Diggs versus whoever he's up against. It doesn't matter if that CB is a top 5 CB and Davis's CB is middle of the road, you still trust Diggs in that matchup first.
There’s no doubt about that! Take that matchup every day.
Scripted play analysis Daboll v. Dorsey (The Court Case of the Millenium)
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
No shot this is true.