HoofHearted
-
Posts
986 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Gallery
Profiles
Forums
Events
Posts posted by HoofHearted
-
-
2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:
I just watched that video
He keeps saying we are running this rpo out of duo concept but looks like inside zone
He calls every run with an in-line tight end duo lol. We ran ISO all last week and he called it duo every time…
-
17 hours ago, LyndonvilleBill said:
Do we have to? Personally, I'd like to see more 4-3. And if Milano and Williams can cover in pass plays, it'd be nice to have the extra LB against the run as well. I know it's not our base D, but... TB, Milano and Williams... I like the thought. 😁
Why? Genuinely asking.
-
11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:
He sounded so unsure of himself in his press conference.
Well shoot when you’re asked about all the “shotgun draws” you ran against the Giants and you didn’t run draw a single time I’d be unsure about what’s going on too 🤣🤣🤣
1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:Just watched cover 1 breakdown on the offence.
Eric Turner was not impressed with Dorsey at all.
Gave him credit for scheming up diggs.
But said the spacing was awful at times, and Dorsey needs to do a better job scheming up plays for other players, especially when teams start doubling Diggs.Eric Turner also only included plays where Diggs was the number one read in the progression (even included one where he wasn’t but said he was) to push his narrative. There were plenty of concepts that schemed other players open. We hit some of them (Gabe specifically) and failed to execute others.
Dude says some off the wall things in those videos sometimes that people here take as gospel.
-
1
-
3
-
-
44 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:
But even you know the motion is just window dressing...
Sure it works vs inferior coached teams ... But don't take the bait ... Keep gap integrity, hands up in the passing lane
Of course I would like to see our offense move into the 21st century... But I'm not impressed by all the pre-snap movements... We've all seen it
We are both defensive guys... You know it's window dressing ... Good defenses don't take the bait
But on that note , I would take more pre snap movement because the NFL seems to struggle with it... Lots of teams are not disciplined
Depends what you're doing with it. If it's just a jet motion to get eyes going one way and then you run the opposite, sure, though it's still forcing defenses to communicate on the fly and, more often than not, move at the snap of the ball. I don't understand why offenses don't do this with every run concept tbh - it's so simple and can give you such an advantage. Whats more intriguing to me is the change of strength motions because now you're getting teams misaligned unless they adjust with the motion, which again gets guys moving at the snap. And then what Miami is doing with motions putting force players in conflict is really good stuff.
16 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:These were different plays than the draw plays to Cook in the past. In the past Josh was taking the ball and running over to a RB standing still. These run plays the RB ran to Josh and took the ball with some steam.
We've run draw maybe 3 times this year. Last week our backfield action looked just as you described when we ran Dart out of gun and it hit last week too.
-
1
-
-
Elam actually played a really good game. Got beat on the slot fade in Cover 1. Didn't look good playing press man at all. Lost at the LoS in true press every single time except for once iirc because of dead feet, lunging, and/or either jamming with two hands or trying to use the wrong hand. Played almost exclusively man or MOD. Looked most comfortable press bailing. I think he had a handful (6-7) snaps of Cover 2 and maybe 3 or 4 snaps of Quarters and looked really good in both. He was fantastic in run support.
-
1
-
1
-
-
17 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:
Nothing even that radical, A reverse, a fake reverse, a half back option, a flea flicker, the RB option that throws back to Josh (done successfully twice by Daboll). Any of these plays thrown into a game would be great to see.
The problem with most of those is that they're one off deals. You can use them for a game, but then can't come back to them for a while because everyone will prepare for them. I'd much rather see us lean more into motioning for misdirection. We do some of it already, but nowhere near at the clip that the Dolphins or 49ers are.
-
1
-
-
3 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:
Is this a concept used within a match zone?Rewatching from the broadcast recording and Play 2 which you indicate is Cover 3 MOD….looks like press man from the snap…so in all likelyhood you got your zone coverage but due to the fact they’re in 12 personnel and run only two routes, corners are essentially playing man ?
Correct.
-
1
-
-
2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:
Am I the only one who needs an index from @HoofHearted’s acronyms 😂
Appreciate all the info and work you’re sharing. Wish I understood some specifics of the lingo (PAP, MOD, MoF)….
I would like to assume I know what they are if I knew what they stood for?
Go Bills!
PAP - play action pass
MOD - man outside and deep (this is a technique played by corners)
MOF - middle of the field (can refer to a player or a coverage - MOF Closed Coverages are 1 and 3 - MOF Open Coverages would be your two shell 2, 4, or 6)
-
1
-
2
-
-
7 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:
The one thing that irks me most about vanilla Dorsey is that he doesnt really challenge the talent on this offense with innovative play designs. I have not seen much in the way of trickery or schemes that are complex. Does he not trust these guys to pull off complicated plays? Daboll had confidence in Josh to run that kind of offense but Dorsey seems a little scared. What has resulted is a predictable offense that defensive coaches can neutralize (if they plan properly).
What would you qualify as trickery or complex schemes? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to be sarcastic.
17 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:Dorsey’s shotgun runs are the equivalent of guessing C on an multiple choice exam when you don’t know what to do but are still confident you’ll ‘pass’
Dart from gun was the most productive run scheme we had vs the Giants of the schemes that were run more than twice.
-
3 hours ago, HappyDays said:
This is interesting because you mention quite a few pass protection breakdowns. The Giants have one of the worst pressure rates in the league, I believe bottom 3. Is this a sign that our pass protection isn't quite as good as we were led to believe over the first 4 weeks? Two games in a row now our OL has looked shaky.
You can find plays like that in every offense in every game, usually more than once. Allen is following the rules of the play and sometimes it just so happens that a WR ends up wide open while unfortunately not being part of the progression. It seems that a general rule built into this offense is "if things break down, look to Diggs first." A lot of still frame all-22 analysis is not being entirely fair to what the QB has to process in a matter of 3 seconds on every play after the snap.
It was more so Josh holding the ball too long at times this week.
-
1
-
1
-
-
3 minutes ago, Franco_92 said:
Is this also called "Hoss"?
It's what the Patriots call it. There's a thousand different terms for route concepts. That's why it's so hard for casual fans to learn the game. There's no common language.
-
1
-
-
14 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
He also had Shakir wide open on an out on the play I bolded that probably would have gotten at least 15 yards.
My question from what I was watching was...is Allen having issues setting line protections against certain looks? Seemed very similar to Bengal playoff gameplan where multiple OLinemen were standing around blocking nobody while 2 guys got near immediate pressure.
I didn't see any of this in the first half of the game.
-
19 hours ago, Bob Jones said:
Really enjoyed watching this. IMHO, the guy does a great job explaining how & why the Bills offense is so inept.
And yes, it is also noted that the Giants defense did a really good job, but I think the schemes, and subsequently, the plays, by the Bills are garbage. They definitely need to bring in an offensive guru who won't put 3 receivers in a 10 yard circle, for one.
Do you understand the reasoning behind the design of the concept?
-
45 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:
Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.
Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.
Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.
Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.
Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.
Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.
Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.
Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.
Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.
Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.
Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.
Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.
Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.
Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.
Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.
Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.
Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.
Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.
Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.
Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.
That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.
Why the eyeroll @Chandler#81?
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
4
-
-
Pass 1 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read.
Pass 2 - Went 12 personnel. Giants played 3 to it - Corners playing MOD - Allen picked his matchup and threw to Diggs.
Pass 3 - Ran Deep Crossers vs Man Coverage - they tried to Double Stef - throw to Gabe - it was open but he tripped. Diggs and Knox also open.
Pass 4 - Ran a Dragon concept vs Cover 2 - hit Diggs on the Glance - he was the first read. Had Cook open to the flat and probably would have had Morris open on the Corner route to the field as the corner drove the stop underneath.
Pass 5 - Went empty and hit Gabe on a stop to the boundary flat. Hitch Seam Concept vs. Cover 3.
Pass 6 - PAP designed for Sherfield on a deep over - cut his route too shallow and should have drifted sooner. He was wide open. Diggs also got open on the comeback to the field. Curious if Josh got confused here - Defense should 3 pre-snap and rolled 2. Even with the shallower path by Sherfield Josh can and has made that throw before. Additionally if he just stops and throws it back across the formation he has Cook wide open in the flat with a lead blocker in Edwards backside with a Corner as the only defender close to it and he was 15 yards away.
Pass 7 -PAP Snag 7 concept - reading the overhang defender - he sank with Diggs so Josh threw the arrow to Gabe - Gabe fumbled. Had Knox as an outlet backside.
Pass 8 - PAP Deep Cross concept vs. Cover 3 which turns into man for the corners because of the offensive formation. Hit Diggs - Harty got hemmed up with the corner otherwise he could have blown the top off that thing because MoF Safety played Cheat to Diggs. Also had Murray as an outlet on the play.
Pass 9 - PAP. This is the mesh concept with the vertical by Gabe that everyone is talking about. Allen sees single high coverage pre-snap. Safety did a good job hanging on the hash as long as possible to muddy Allens read - wanted to hit Gabe which is why he waited so long because he wanted the Safety to declare. Once Safety declared and he saw Cover 2 he immediately looked for Diggs and let it rip even though he had a wide open Shakir on the opposite side.
Pass 10 - HBO Concept vs Quarters - took the quick throw to Diggs before anything else really had an opportunity to develop. Would have had Knox to the middle of the field and Gabe on a deep curl if he wanted it.
Pass 11 - Ran the same Snag 7 concept to the field against Cover 6. Looked Diggs on a slant backside first - wasn't there and had to scramble to his left. Had Knox open to the flat on a whip route with the defense dropping to the sticks on third and long. If he had looked trips side first as he should have he'd probably have hit Gabe on the Curl for a first down.
Pass 12 - RPO to Diggs - he was the single read and it should have been handed off. There was no play there with the defense playing 1.
Pass 13 - Mesh vs Cover 3 - Cover 1 made a comment about Allen potentially thinking it was 1, but every defender is playing with zone eyes so I'd highly doubt it. Had Cook and should have thrown to Cook. Instead got pressured and threw it in the dirt to Diggs. With a clean pocket he also had Gabe on the backside deep out vs the sinking corner.
Pass 14 - Basically ran a one man concept here on 3rd and forever. Defense played Cover 3 - Sherfield ran the collector to pull the MoF Safety and Diggs ran an out and up vs a Trap 3 look. They got exactly the look they wanted - Diggs beat his guy but pressure forced Josh out of the pocket and the play wasn't really designed to go anywhere else. He forced a throw off-balance and underthrew it.
Pass 15 - PAP. Another two man route concept here. Diggs on the Glance and Sherfield on the Deep Out to the field vs. Cover 3. Curious about the condensed split by Diggs here, but the backers didn't bite and there was no window. Allen should have thrown the Out to the field.
Pass 16 - Flood concept vs. Cover 1 Rat. Looked like Josh got confused by the double on Diggs initially - checked the MoF Safety to ensure it was 1, but then pocket broke down. Diggs worked scramble drill and got himself open. Allen overthrew it.
Pass 17 - Went Empty and ran two verts backside to Cover 3 which was disguised as 0. Josh was definitely thrown off by the disguise. By the time he recognized 1 high the pocket had broken down and he threw it away to the field. Looked like Murray also ran the wrong route on the play otherwise Shakir would have been open to the flat.
Pass 18 - Ran Curl Arrow to the field vs Quarters and Hitch Seam to the boundary vs. 2. Looked Diggs first - had Harty on the Curl behind it wide open, but never saw it. Pocket broke down and he ended up throwing it away on scramble drill.
Pass 19 - PAP - Mirrored Deep Curls vs Cover 3 - open on both sides - threw to Diggs.
Pass 20 - Had a Post/Dig concept working the middle of the field vs Cover 6 - threw to Knox and it got picked. The frustrating part is if he holds a second later the Safety is driving the Dig and Knox would have had a walk-in touchdown on the Post. Murray also open as the outlet.
That's every pass from the first half of the game. Guys were definitely getting open. There's definitely a lot being schemed for Diggs, but there's also a fair amount being schemed for other guys as well. Allen finds Diggs immediately whenever anything breaks down which is understandable. Also rushed some stuff which is understandable given the consistent pressure he saw. As a side note Dorsey's play calling was impressive. Every route concept outside of the Flood vs Cover 1 was had an answer to take advantage of the coverage they saw from the defense.
-
4
-
1
-
5
-
8
-
-
11 hours ago, cgg716 said:
I understand nickel is our base D, but how many times must one get shredded on the ground before you change it up sometimes? Or even just read a situation? Clappy calling his NBA time outs last night to act like he's making changes, winds up with 5"11 Johnson on 6"6 Waller, just lucky they didn't call the penalty. The lack of adjustments and awareness is mind numbing
1st Run: Long Trap
A lot going on during this play. Initial formation is Wing Twins which they shifted to Slot Trips which they then motioned to Ace. All of this is just eye candy and to get our second level defenders moving on the snap. They running Trap so it's double downs front side and seal hinge the backside - Guard pulls to kick our defensive end. Rousseau steps over himself on initial footwork which doesn't allow him to squeeze the down as he should and widens the gap. Bernard bumps back to a 10 on the motion - plays with great eyes - recognizes the guard pull and gets his eyes to the down/down. His responsibility is to fit outside of the down/down which he works to though he engages at 4 yards instead of being able to press it at the LoS. Williams plays with good eyes - sees the guard pull, but hesitates scraping over the top when he sees the open playside A that Poyer is now responsible for. If Williams scrapes as he should it's a gain of maybe 3 or 4 even with the lack of a squeeze from Rousseau. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play.
2nd Run: GH Counter
Again the Giants used shifts and motions to try to affect our front. This time we had a stunt on so the effect was minimal. Same kind of concept bringing the jet motion as eye candy to pull our second level defenders eyes off their keys. This time Rousseau does a better job of squeezing the down/down and boxing the pulling guard and compressing the gap. We were bringing Poyer on a stunt so he fits off the down/down and leverages the tight end working to wrap. Williams looks unsure whether he's suppose to fit outside or inside the wrapping Tight End, but end up putting himself in the right position late, but isn't in a position where he could breakdown and make the tackle. If he makes the tackle it's a 1 yard gain. Being in Nickel had no impact on this play.
There's your two big plays. Again Nickel had zero impact on either of these. Taron was pulled out of the box in both situations. Bad technique from Rousseau on the first one and just indecision from a young player were the cause for the big gains.
-
1
-
1
-
2
-
-
10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:
Correct. And logically it's the right choice. If the defense is in man, the best matchup 100% of the time is Diggs versus whoever he's up against. It doesn't matter if that CB is a top 5 CB and Davis's CB is middle of the road, you still trust Diggs in that matchup first.
There’s no doubt about that! Take that matchup every day.
-
Just now, MAJBobby said:
So again you have proof Dorsey tell Josh hey in man coverage do whatever you want? Ignore the design of the route concepts
It matters to me not if you wish to continue to be ignorant and uninformed...
-
10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:
Yeah no trust me bro doesn’t work.
back your claim that Allen is going off script. Where is the hold package Mr progressional. Ooo wait others also do this a long time professionally.
Heck everyone makes educated guesses in every profession. That is much different than your claim.
I have. You refuse to listen. I've also said it's not "off-script". When he is seeing man coverage he's just picking the match-up he likes best. This has been Diggs the vast majority of times this year. It's no different than taking "the gift" in 3x1 sets. If the defense is playing off to the single side you can ignore the concept progression and throw the 5 yard stop since they're just giving it to you.
-
2
-
-
21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:
And there is almost no linebacker in the league who is going to hold up when a guard gets his hands on him flush at the second level.
My overall take on Williams is he was better than last week for sure. He is so fast and instinctive at times he has a tendency to get to his spot too early or overrun his gap / drop point in coverage. But I'd much rather be trying to reign that in with a guy with speed, instincts and talent than trying to put AJ Klein out there knowing full well they are spots he just can't get to in time. There is a lot to like in Williams game and as the game slows down for him and as he slows himself down I think you will see a better player. I'd be interested in @HoofHearted or @Buffalo716 opinions on some of his coverage drops because they were the weakness to me last night, especially two of those shorter 3rd down completions Tyrod had where it felt like he almost outran his spot but without having looked at the A22 yet, obviously, I thought he graded pretty well against the run, chasing down plays and attacking the ball carrier.
I know he overran his drop a couple times. I'd have to see the A22 to give a true opinion though. A lot of his faults right now are just eye discipline which will come with reps. I'm encouraged by what I've seen so far. You can't teach his speed and willingness to pull the trigger.
-
2
-
1
-
-
6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:
Again so I would like the proof that there is a progression that Allen said ***** it I am going to Diggs. You have that yet?
Guess you just have to trust that a guy who's been doing this professionally for a long time knows what he's talking about 🤷♂️
1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:That specific throw. I feel like corners play differently if there are worried it getting thrown into that hole over there head before safety gets there.
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
-
Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:
The Bills rarely run man coverage, I think the two Tryhard hit were not man, but was definitely cover2 safeties
1) I thought you were saying why isn't the vertical passing game in our offense
2) The one on Elam was Cover 1 and the one on Benford was 2 Man
-
1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:
Except they do.
Example one Concept could have a Deep to Short Read progression based on the coverage shown, and flip the very next play. So YES they do change play to play defense to defense, script to script. So unless you are in those build meetings you can guess who the 1st read is, but as I said that is a guess. Guessing is fine too. But to say Allen is doing things on his own vs designed n the offense that is where I am calling for the proof. which you have yet to show.
Yeah, coverage plays a huge role in progressions, but again they are all rule based. You're acting like the Bills are running some obscure offense that's never been done before. All of these concepts have been around for forever. They all have set rules and progressions. As a casual fan you could probably find them if you wanted to, but like I said - watch the film.
3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:Two weeks in a row now the opposing team hit lofting the ball to an outside go with. Db draped all over him before safety help gets there.
T-Law hit one to Ridley then Tyrod hit one on each sideline. Why is that not is the Bill arsenal?
It is? We rarely get man coverage to take advantage of it.
-
17 minutes ago, Dopey said:
Some of you should listen to "One Bills Live" WGR550. Tasker and whoever his partner is give a good perspective on why Dorsey isn't to blame for that first half. It's ok to blame the players for lack of execution. And that first half was definitely on the players.
Blasphemy! How are we supposed to get Dorsey fired if we acknowledge players mess up?!?!?
2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:Again you cannot say who is the primary read definitively without being in the build meetings. SO you can tell me to watch whatever film you want me to watch unless you are in the build meetings you cannot tell me who is the primary read for a single route, you can assume but that is it.
I mean it's cool if you don't want to believe me, but all concepts have built in reads/progressions. Those don't change based on what team is running them. Football is a game of rules and those rules are tied to the concept.
-
1
-
The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Right, we’ve run that action with multiple run concepts this year (draw, inside zone, dart, GH counter) and it’s been successful out of specifically the gap scheme stuff more so than the zone/draw. The timing on it on the gap scheme stuff looks really good which is probably why they’ve stuck with it there and moved away from it on the zone scheme stuff.