BillsFan4
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I cannot wrap my head around the fact that so many folks around here support these moves. I just don't understand it. I wonder if Buffalo sports fans and residents are so beaten down that they just assume that good players don't want to be in Buffalo, so it's just a matter of time before the good ones leave and "don't let the door hit you on the way out" if you even hint at being unhappy.
Or maybe Bills fans have simply forgotten what it's like to be competitive on Sundays and have focused all of their energies and fantasies on the offseason and NFL Draft, so that they'd rather gear up for a super exciting draft weekend than have to watch their team fall short year after year during the actual season.
Mark my words: the Bills are going to spend years - YEARS - trying to acquire another talent the likes of Sammy. To trade away an explosive, game-altering, defense-intimidating player in the prime of his career, after all that has been invested in marketing him and healing him and integrating him - it's just lunacy to me.
And wait until you see all of the 4-yard rollout passes to fullbacks and plodding lead-handed receivers this season - folks are gonna start to turn on this trade, I firmly believe. This is going to be a boring, slow, easily-defended offense designed to limit mistakes.
This is Jauron Ball 2.0. They're building a roster full of saints and soldiers, that's great, but where is the TALENT?
One of the least-efficient WRs in the league.
Now I'm not saying i love the trade or whatever but I'm willing to give it time and see what McD/Beane are able to build here.
Here's what it ultimately boils down to for me -
The Bills are my team. They will be no matter who the owner/coach/GM is. I have absolutely ZERO control over the moves they make. So I can choose to try and rationalize the moves, try and figure out what they were thinking and make sense of them to myself. Or I can freak out. Since I have zero control and I prefer not to freak out over something I can't control, I rationalize the moves and do my best to see the vision of the team and try to support it.
I am the type that prefers to try and go with the flow. These things are going to happen whether I want them to or not and it doesn't matter if I like the moves. They happened. So I choose to try and look for the best of the situation.
It has nothing to do with being beaten down by losing or any of that stuff you mentioned.
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Perfectly said
One more thing on the trade a lot of people like it because Sammy was going to be hard to sign. They had the tag to use twice. They controlled his rights. Additionally the Bills have loads of cap space and will have a roster full of guys on rookie deals. They aren't hindered or restricted by the cap at all. That point is totally irrelevant. The Bills could have elected to make Sammy the highest paid player in the NFL and wouldn't have had to make one roster decision because of it. They just decided that they weren't going to re-sign him.
Additionally, you have Matthews entering FA next year. He's probably looking at $10M+ a year. It's not like there is massive savings there. Would you rather have Matthews at $10M a year or Watkins at $12M?
The whole "signability" thing is a lie. Nothing was preventing the Bills from signing him just like nothing will prevent them from signing Matthews.
Isn't the franchise tag for Sammy next year roughly $15-$17M or am I wrong? If so, the Bills are projected to have $26M in cap space next year according to spotrac. Tagging Sammy leaves them $9 - $11M to fill out an entire roster. I don't see that as oodles of cap space or as having the ability to make Sammy the highest paid player in the NFL. Making him the highest paid player in the NFL would literally eat up that entire $26M leaving the Bills $0.
From everything Watkins has said, I see zero reason to assume they could get him signed for $12M per year, either. He wants to change the entire pay structure of the NFL as per his words.
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We've seen that a bunch but how many games did we puta heavy focus on Sammy and suffer? It's got to be an incredibly limited number of games he got the targets a #1 should and many of those were good days for the offense
I agree. The offense didn't suffer. I just found it interesting that the players felt the offense opened up more without him (if indeed that is true).
McDermott seems very very focused on building a true team, where guys are 100% all in and willing to do whatever it takes for the team to win. It just kind of made me wonder (along with some of the other things we fans have read/heard) on how well Sammy truly fit into the locker room. I have no idea though. Just something I wondered about.
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Shady has said something to Sammy. Haven't seen anyone else but I'm not really looking.
I found Shady's quotes to be interesting. This one in particular -
"Sammy's one of them guys where, he's been like a superstar his whole life," McCoy said. "He hasn't had a real older mentor that has done more than him that can really give him advice. It's one thing to take advice from older guys that he's probably better than or done more than. But a guy that can really talk about success on the field and off the field, and listen to ... that's something we've been developing even in my short period of time here"
Maybe it's just me, but I kind of felt that McCoy was implying that Sammy never had any real interest in listening to or taking advise from any veteran players that were not as talented as he was. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but that's what I got from it.
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The only thing I remember is a poster here a month or so ago saying he talked to a player or heard from a player (can't remember) that they felt the offense ran better without Sammy because the QB didn't always feel pressured to target him. Don't shoot the messenger btw - it is just a random post that I remember and it kind of stuck in my head. I guess, if true, it would be kind of like when Megatron left Detroit and - though I don't watch a lot of Lions football - I understand from casually paying attention that some Lions fans felt the offense actually improved because Stafford was just spreading the ball around. Again, I know people are very sensitive about this topic and I'm not saying this to be true, it is just stuff I read and thought it was relevant to the discussion.
I remember that too. I had been wanting to bring that up but I couldn't remember where I read it though.
Yeah he said a number of Bills players felt the offense opened up more withOUT Sammy in the lineup.
Like you said, who knows if it's true. But I could see it TBH. We know Sammy wanted the ball forced to him any time he had 1 on 1 coverage, since he literally said it to the press.
I could especially see it being true while Doug Whaley was still here. I am not sure on this but I want to say that I even remember hearing something along those lines before (on Whaley & Sammy getting the ball).
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He was being facetious
Lol. Thanks. it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes...
Yeah, I was tying to be nice. But I really didn't see all that much similarity.
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Very good special teams guy, maybe decent depth CB. Hoping for the best.
I fully expect the Bills to try and sign another CB or 2 before the season starts, especially if any guys with starter or backup potential hit the market during cuts to 53.
It's really a shame the Bills don't still have Ross Cockrell... he'd have been a potential good fit, and very good depth at worst. More li,Eli he's starting for us though
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If you're going to trade your best WR for a second round pick, why sign a #4 WR when he's going to cost you a third rounder?
It makes no sense.
McD was calling the shots then and now. If Beane was looking ahead to that pick, Ducasse, Davis and Holmes would already be gone.
It doesn't seem to me like McDermott is calling the shots. Beane said he didn't even tell him about the Sammy trade until the night before it happened. Then they all discussed it - Pegula, McDermott and Beane and came to a conclusion. That sounds to me like a group effort, which is what they've said all along.
They hadn't traded Sammy yet when they signed Holmes though, and they could still end up cutting him and the others for the 3rd round comp pick.
I still think that's a likely scenario that they cut 3 of those 4 players for the comp pick. Especially if they're able to fill those holes when rosters are cut down to 53.
Again though, it's not just Holmes they need to cut. So it's not him alone that costs them a comp pick. It's 3 of these 4 players - Ducasse, Holmes, DiMarco (or Ryan Davis, I've seen both listed), and Stephen Hauschka.
Also, I'm not sure I'd say it makes no sense to sign needed players to fill out your roster, instead of getting a 3rd round comp pick a year from now (which is really a 4th round pick, since it is given after the 3rd round is over).
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ONE ! ONE NUMBER ONE !!!!! Drives me nuts when people recite that. 2015 first rounder to switch position in the 2014 first round. Thus they traded ONE....ONE first rounder.
Or you could look at it like this -
We traded #8 + 2015 1st + 4th round picks for Sammy. So, 3 picks for 1 pick.
Any way you spin it, we gave up 2 1st round picks and a 4th round pick for Sammy. 3 players for 1 player.
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That sounds so much like what the Bills players said about Sammy.
I mean, I can see some similarity in some of the comments but I don't remember reading anyone saying he was their favorite teammate, or that he pushed them to be better than what they were, or challenged them to be a man of god or "words can't describe the impact you've had on my life". Every single guy commented on Matthews character.
The Bills comments were more about being shocked about Sammy being traded, and a couple said they were sad to lose a friend. Zay Jones did say some nice things about Sammy being helpful. So yeah, similar in some regards, but different.
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Anyone else feel like we are backwards? This team has done such a 360 from where it was from 2000-2010, and I feel like we are entering right back to that era.
Pegula was such a nice breathe of fresh air, and IMO, so was Doug Whaley. He got creative with salary cap, did things we never used to do, took chances in trades, etc.
I know this probably won't be popular, but I miss the Whaley days. When Whaley was GM, I finally felt like a real NFL team, trying to actually get into the playoffs. We were aggressive and the talent on this roster was the highest it has been in over a decade.
I just didn't see the need for the rebuild. Pegula should have made sure this wasn't going to happen. Looking back, I would have rather hired Lynn and kept Whaley. At least they would want to keep great talent on this team, not get rid of it.
This new regime just rubs me the wrong way. They think that future picks actual mean anything. Give me talent over maybe talent with a draft pick you don't even know the position of. They think they won't have to ever pay out big contracts and we will just operate on guys who "want to be here." They are always looking for low ball offers and think they are smart enough to win with lesser talent. They are going to be in for a rude awakening. You need talent to win. They are setting themselves back 2 years and most regimes only get 3 years before they have to prove themselves.
I don't really get where this is coming from.
They won't ever have to pay out big contracts? How can you conclude that?
Doug Whaley was the GM when Gilmore left in free agency, and when Gillislee left on that offer sheet.
Before you blame McDermott, Whaley had 2 years to get Gilmore signed and he didn't. There were reports before McDermott was even hired that Whaley wasn't willing to give Gilmore more than $11.5M. Supposedly that was their best/highest offer.
Yeah, they traded Sammy. But that was 1 player, and we have no idea what the exact reasons for the trade were. Even if it was contract related in some part, I am sure there were other reasons behind it too. To conclude that they think they won't ever have to pay out big contracts seems like a,pretty big leap in logic IMO.
Always looking for low ball offers? Where does that come from?
Jeremy Maclin chose Baltimore over Buffalo and it had nothing to do with money. There was a report that the Bills actually tried to up their offer to above what Baltimore offered just to try one last time to get Maclin to sign here. He chose Baltimore because of (his words) Joe Flacco, because they won a Super Bowl recently and he felt they were close, and because his wife is from Baltimore and has family there.
And Boldin signed here. Beane said it was never about the money. They knew where the money needed to be and had agreed on it. It was Boldin deciding if this was a good fit for him and his family.
So I don't get the "always looking for low ball offers" comment. There doesn't really seem to be much to back that up.
They did say that they aren't going to overpay and hand out massive contracts in free agency though, which is a good strategy that many successful GMs employ and different from what you are saying.
As for draft picks meaning anything, they absolutely do. Almost all of the best NFL teams have all been built through the draft. That is how you build a true contender. You can't build a team through free agency in the cap era.
Whaley had been here since 2010 and was GM since 2013. He had plenty of time to put a winner on the field, but was only able to eek out a winning season 1 time in his entire tenure here, and if Brady + the starters play that last Pats game of 2014 the Bills likely don't have a winning season that year either.
He was an above average pro personnel guy and average (at best) to below average at everything else (IMO anyway). The Bills had the lowest number of drafted players on their roster in the entire NFL during Whaley's time here.
And they actually retained the least number of their players during his time here too (from 2010) -
http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/28/bills-retained-nfls-fewest-draft-picks-since-2010/
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I posted this in another thread but this is probably a better place for it.
Eagles players reactions to!atthews trade - https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017/8/11/16135262/carson-wentz-eagles-players-react-jordan-matthews-traded-bills-buffalo-philadelphia-news-twitter
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Eagles players reactions to losin Matthews -
They all seem to have a common theme. Here's a couple of my favs -
"I've known my dawg J Matt for a little over a year. From day 1 he was genuine & a true friend. I've known people my entire life who haven't challenged me to be a Man of God, & push myself as an athlete, as he has in a year of time. You've helped me prioritize what's important in life! Stay BLESSED family & be GREAT in Buffalo!!✊ #BigDogOutTheGate"
Torrey Smith -
I've only been around @jmattjmattjmatt for a few months but he is easily one of my favorite teammates ever. Good luck bro! God has you!
And Wentz -
Crazy part of this business. @jmattjmattjmatt you'll always be my boy both on & off the field. Couldn't ask for a better teammate & frien
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Ok... I'm shocked. All eyes on the future I guess. I'm not sure I get why they kept TT then. Why sign Anquan to a 1yr deal? Just tank. All of this talk about not surrendering the season is just that, talk. The team is much less likely to make any sort of push this year. If your plan is to really start it next year, then get the first pick in each round.
I wonder how Kyle Williams feels about coming back now. They're going nowhere this year.
I disagree.
I'd guess they kept Tyrod because he's been the best QB the Bills have had in like 2 decades, has only started 2 seasons in the NFL, showed quite a bit of promise in those 2 seasons and is the hardest working player in the entire building.
With the 2 seasons he's out together for the Bills, I'd say he deserves a shot at season 3. They are hoping he takes a nice step forward.
With how hard it is to find decent QBs in the NFL, it seems like a very smart move to me not just throwing TT away and hoping that with good coaching he can improve. Plus, Dennison wanted to work with him and has had a pretty good history with getting good play from his QBs.
McDermott most likely would not have been able to put together the coaching staff he did if the Bills were just tanking the season. McDermott put together a top of the line coaching staff IMO. I think we have many very good position coaches, the line coaches (Waufle and Castillo) being among the very best in the NFL.
Also, how do you go about building a new culture and actually getting players to buy in, if they came in and tanked their first season? I would think that'd be a damn hard sell for pretty much any player on the team.
They are trying to establish the foundation this season of a solid culture (not filled with constant losing) to develop to their plethora of upcoming draft picks in as well as their current picks on the roster. While at the same time acquiring solid draft capital for players they felt no longer fit the new regime. They've amassed a solid haul of draft picks without having to totally tank like Cleveland or the Jets. It's actually not a bad plan at all IMO. You don't need top 3 draft picks to build an NFL team. Game changers can be found all through out the draft, especially the first few rounds. It's not the NHL where you truly need a top,pick to get a franchise talent.
Some player reactions -The Eagles really seem down after losing Matthews. If he was that important to their team, I'm looking forward to what he brings to our team in the locker room and in the field
I especially liked this one -
"I've known my dawg J Matt for a little over a year. From day 1 he was genuine & a true friend. I've known people my entire life who haven't challenged me to be a Man of God, & push myself as an athlete, as he has in a year of time. You've helped me prioritize what's important in life! Stay BLESSED family & be GREAT in Buffalo!!✊ #BigDogOutTheGate"
You can really see the type of players this new regime is focusing on. They really seem to put an emphasis on true team first character guys. It's actually very intriguing. I'm pretty excited to see how this works out. I have high hopes.
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I can see why people don't like the Sammy trade and the value the Bills for back...
But the trade, the value seems pretty damn good to me. We got Jordan Matthews, who has been the NFL's most productive slot receiver in his 3 years in the league. Plus we got a 3rd round pick back, that should likely be in the top 1/2'of the round.
Darby was a #51 overall pick himself (I know that doesn't matter now). That 3rd could be around +/- 75 (ish). So you get a pick back 25?spots later than where Darby was drafted, PLUS the most productive slot receiver in the NFL - a very likely 1st round pick if he had entered the draft a year sooner instead of entering in one of the deepest WR drafts (if not the deepest) in NFL history - for a guy the coaching staff seemed to feel didn't fit the new defensive scheme as well, and they could have possibly even ended up cutting down the road (especially if he didn't rebound from his 2016 season).
We don't know what Darby is yet, either. He's played 2 years in the league. 1 year was very good, the other year was pretty ugly. So he's been good for 1/2 his career and not so good for 1/2 his career so far.
I do expect him to rebound under Schwartz, but what if 2016 Darby ends up being who he really is? Then this trade looks even better.
McDermott has done a great job with his secondary so far in his career. It's something he's known for.
Even last year when he lost a top 3 CB (5th round pick Josh Norman who McD basically developed into the player that he is today), has other injures and was forced to start 2 later round rookie CB's, he had them playing damn good football by the 2nd half of the year. He's had pretty damn good secondary for most of his career.
If McDermott feels that Darby is more suited to man coverage and is struggling in zone (more thinking involved in zone for CB's, may not be Darby's strong suit) as some in the media have been saying, then it was very smart to move on now, before his value possibly dropped, and get something significant for a player that was drafted for the previous coaches completely opposite defensive scheme.
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I think everyone is arguing that this is probably not the case in both respects.
I don't see how Sammy's hypothetical contract doesn't allow us to sign Cousins. I don't see how having 3 1sts, 2 seconds, and 3 3rds in the next two years would need another second to trade up to get a QB.
Spotrac shows the Bills with an estimated $26M in cap space for 2018 -
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/2018/
Sammy just recently said that NFL players don't get paid enough and he think that him and his fellow 2014 receiver class will change all that. That doesn't sound like someone that's going to sign a deal with a reasonable cap hit. That sounds like a guy looking to set a new record high for WR pay to me.
So, let's assume that we tag him then. What the franchise tag for WR looking like in 2018? Roughly $17M or so?
So that leaves $9M in cap space, with more than just the QB position to fill out, roster wise. I don't see how they'd even have a chance at signing Cousins (but to be clear, I don't think they will try and break the bank to sing him anyway), let alone fill,out the rest of the roster.
Bills would have gotten a comp 3rd if Sammy would have left via FA. This makes no !@#$ing sense. Now, no ER and a mid-2d? The people approving this BS are acting like Heaven's Gate folks. I may just stop being a Bills' fan, for a few years, over this stupidity.
That's assuming that they add no other free agents to try and help the team. You only get a comp pick for Sammy if you lose more players to FA than you sign.
So you'd possibly have to fore-go trying to improve the team in order to ensure you get that 3rd round comp pick.
And a 3rd round comp pick comes after the 3rd round is over, so it's really more/less a 4th rounder. The 2nd we got for Sammy could be in the top 5 of the 2nd round. I'm not saying that Sammy wasn't worth more than that, because I think he was. But getting what could be a high 2nd is a lot better compensation that a comp 3rd (aka a 4th) if they didn't have intentions of re-signing Sammy.
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You are JoeToronto!!!! GTF away from our site.
Is he for real JoeToronto?
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Seeing as every Bills FO hired in the last decade has been fired in disgrace for sucking, I'd say C. and sleep soundly.
Signing Vlad Ducassee and losing a third round comp pick isn't "thinking ahead." They are making egregious errors early and often.
Wasn't ducasse (and the other players that formulate into the comp pick) signed before Beane and his front office staff were even hired? doesn't seem fair to blame them.
And it wasn't just signing him that loses a 3rd comp pick. It's a combination of Ducasse, Holmes, Hauschka and Ryan Davis.
They have to cut 3 of those 4 to get the comp 3rd IIRC. I fully expect at least 2 of the 4 to be cut. I don't think Hauschka will be, and Holmes is a toss up. If they can
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I see your and dog's point, but basically, the Bills gave up a ton of draft capital in a draft related move. Technically, it wasn't a "trade up" on draft day, but practically speaking, it was.
Honestly, I was really only referring to the risk in trading up for a QB. I've seen it talked about a whole lot ever since we acquired that extra Chiefs 1st, and while I'm not opposed to it, trading up to the top of a draft for a QB is definitely a huge risk that has rarely ever worked out for the team trading up.
I 100% agree that the Cornelius Bennett trade was an amazing one for the Bills. He instantly put that defense over the top, and I'd make that trade again 10 times out of 10. I still love that move to this day. One of the best the Bills made IMO.
But that Bills team was in a much different position. That defense was actually one player away from being great. Unfortunately, the Bills weren't (and still aren't) one Sammy Watkins away from being great.
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I disagree with the popular sentiment on this board--that packaging picks to draft a "franchise" QB is the way forward.
McD and Bean have shown they value the draft to acquire talent. They loves some draft picks. They'll draft a QB with a pick if they like him, but they aren't going to package picks to move up to select a particular person. It's not how they roll, IMO.
The future is indeed bright -= IF =- Bean and McD are good draft day operators.
Yeah I don't see them selling their future to move up and draft a QB. Maybe they're willing to give up that extra Chief's 1st to move up. But I'd be surprised if they traded away a whole draft for 1 player. I think they know the Bills need to be built from the ground up through the draft.
Although, who knows. That Watkins trade took some big balls, and Beane has said he knows the importance of having a franchise QB & how it's a QB driven league. So if he feels very confident about a certain QB maybe he's willing to go all in for him?
It's kind of hard to predict what these new guys are going to do, as they haven't been on the job long enough yet for us to really know their tendencies. All I know for sure is that they value character and a team first mentality. That is very clear to see in the players they've drafted/acquired.
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Did you stop watching the Bills all the games Sammy has been injured and not on the field? I didn't.
The Bills are and always will be my team, and I will watch them because I am a die hard BUFFALO BILLS fan, not just a Sammy Watkins fan. I like the team, not just 1 player on it.
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Wasn't all that impressed with Mahomes. Thought Trubisky had the best debut.
Same here.
I thought Mahomes did some good things but I wasn't even close to being blown away or anything. Nothing that made me say "oh I hate that we traded down instead of drafting him". It was only 1 preseason game (against a weak opponent) though. It'll be years before we know what Mahomes really is.
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I could care less if Sammy makes a pro bowl. I care about the Bills winning.
If Sammy re-signs in LA and helps them to have much more success over the course of his career than what Beane/McDermott & the Bills are able to accomplish, then maybe I'll care.
But if the Bills ultimately build a successful team under Beane and McDermott, it won't matter to me if Sammy is a perennial all pro.
I wish the kid success, anyway. I just wish the Bills more success. lol
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Sure, a top pick would be nice to take a QB. But you don't absolutely need one to find a franchise guy. Just looking st current NFL starting QB's -
Joe Flacco - taken 18th overall
Derek Carr - 2nd round
Aaron Rodgers - 24th overall
Ben Roethlisberger - 11th overall
Tom Brady - 6th round
Drew Brees - 2nd round
Russel Wilson - 3rd round
Kirk Cousins - 4th round
Dark Prescott - 4th round
Andy Dalton - 2nd round
Tiny Romo - undrafted (and now retired)
Then you have guys who were taken top 3 that haven't done squat - Blake Bortles, Sam Bradford, RGIII, even guys like Matt Stafford (who is definitely a franchise QB and I would take in a heart beat) haven't won a thing and Alex Smith although a franchise guy is pretty underwhelming for a 1st overall. I could go even further and say what real success has a guy like Carson Palmer had (taken 1st overall)? He said played in what, 3 or 4 playoff games in his entire career, with 1 win (IIRC)?
I mean even Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Philip Rivers, Cam Newton (who are all absolutely franchise QBs and who I would LOVE to have) haven't really won anything. I would take any one of them in a heart beat though! lol
Then guys like Goff and Wentz it's too soon to tell, although Goff looked terrible his first season, and Wentz didn't look very good outside the first 3-4 games. But it's way too soon to call on them. Same goes for Mariota and Winston, although both look to be on their way to success.
Now, don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I would absolutely love love love to have one of those elite top of the draft QBs. But it's no guarantee that the Bills win anything is all i'm saying, and also that you can find a legit franchise QB to win a Super Bowl with outside the top 3-5 of the draft. Not all our hopes for the future hang on a top 3 QB pick.
Even when you have a top 3-5 pick, it's more about being lucky enough to get that top pick in the right QB draft year, and then pick the right QB in that draft. Not too often are there sure thing QBs these days. College QBs are more of a crap,shoot now than they've probably ever been.
Go on record regarding the trades
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
So it kind of sounds like you agree that it's silly that the Bills have these cap issues without even sniffing the playoffs then?
And that it's also silly to pay all these guys tons of money before they've really done anything in the league (like Sammy) and put the Bills in cap jail again after just barely stating to dig out of it this offseason?
Lol. I know this is not what you were saying, but that's kind of what I took from your post...
There is no reason that the Bills should have been so up against the cap the last couple years under Rex/Whaley. They went on a spending spree Rex's first year and used up just about all the Bills available cap space IIRC.
The Bills absolutely did have cap issues last season and entering this offseason, especially with the number of free agent players they had. That's part of the reason they had to cut good players and let other good players walk. IIRC they had like $19M to sign something like 26 free agents. It's part of the reason why they had to rely so heavily on bringing in cheap players and UDFA's.
I'm sure they could have found a way to make Sammy's numbers work, but not without having to make more painful moves elsewhere across the roster, hurting the quality of multiple other positions across the team.
Thing is, whether we like it or not, we are nowhere near a Sammy Watkins away from being a competitive playoff team. They have massive needs across most of the entire roster and not a ton of cap space to work with ATM. The cap is getting better because of moves made this offseason, though.