Dan

This is perhaps the best thread I've read in quite some time. Thank you. I agree "fielding a team we're proud of" is likely all we're heading for next season. However, I'll take that any day over a team full of TOs. In my opinion, the best thing about the Levy led Bills of the 90s - they were a team Icould be proud of. Despite the wins and losses. I liked the players, I liked the coaches. And I'll settle for that again.... for now.

True. excellent point about Polian. But maybe its just because he has that bum Dungy. If only he could hire Jimmy Johnson as his coach then he'd win the superbowl for like 20 years in a row.

OK. just to show how bored I am (as well as how tired I am of idiots bashing Marv). I took those stats and deleted everyone's 4 best years. Here's a summary of what you get (details below): Parcells | Adj TTL | 112 110 1 | 4 5 |**** win % 0.50 (0.444-playoffs) Gibbs | Adj TTL | 93 67 0 | 5 5 |**** win % 0.58 (0.50-playoffs) Levy | Adj TTL | 94 97 0 | 2 4 |**** win % 0.49 (0.33-playoffs) Belicheck | Adj TTL | 49 63 0 | 1 1 |**** win % 0.43 (0.50-playoffs) Noll | Adj TTL | 145 137 0 | 4 6 |**** win % 0.51 (0.40-playoffs) Johnson | Adj TTL | 34 46 0 | 1 2 |**** win % 0.43 (0.33-playoffs) You can't say.."but they won the Superbowl", because if you take out everyone's 4 best years; there's no Superbowl teams in the mix. So just based on win/loss percentage, Levy would rank 4th on that list (only marginally behind the great Parcells). Although, if we really wanted to be fair we should add Shula, Lombardi, Landry and a few others to this mix (but I'm not that bored). Bottom line, if you take out the best years of their career, Johnson and Belicheck aren't evenin the same league as Levy. So, I'd suspend any further discussion of them in the same breath as Levy. Also, another not too surprising conclusion, if you delete the 4 best years of anyone's coaching career, all but Gibbs seem pretty darn ordinary. So what does this tell you, you shouldn't manipulate numbers just to prove a point. And a person's career is more than just the sum of a bunch of numbers. But, even if you do add the numbers, Levy still stands with the best coaches of the game. ======================================================= Parcells | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1983 nyg | 3 12 1 | 0 0 | | 1984 nyg | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | | 1985 nyg | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | | 1986 nyg | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1987 nyg | 6 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1988 nyg | 10 6 0 | 0 0 | | 1989 nyg | 12 4 0 | 0 1 |**** | 1990 nyg | 13 3 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1993 nwe | 5 11 0 | 0 0 | | 1994 nwe | 10 6 0 | 0 1 | | 1995 nwe | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | | 1996 nwe | 11 5 0 | 2 1 | | 1997 nyj | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | | 1998 nyj | 12 4 0 | 1 1 |**** | 1999 nyj | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 2003 dal | 10 6 0 | 0 1 | | 2004 dal | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | | 2005 dal | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 163 123 1 | 11 7 | | Adj TTL | 112 110 1 | 4 5 |**** win % 0.50 (0.444-playoffs) Gibbs | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1981 was | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1982 was | 8 1 0 | 4 0 |**** | 1983 was | 14 2 0 | 2 1 |**** | 1984 was | 11 5 0 | 0 1 | | 1985 was | 10 6 0 | 0 0 | | 1986 was | 12 4 0 | 2 1 | | 1987 was | 11 4 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1988 was | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1989 was | 10 6 0 | 0 0 | | 1990 was | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | | 1991 was | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1992 was | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | | 2004 was | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | | 2005 was | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 140 76 0 | 17 6 | | Adj TTL | 93 67 0 | 5 5 |**** win % 0.58 (0.50-playoffs) Levy | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1978 kan | 4 12 0 | 0 0 | | 1979 kan | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1980 kan | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1981 kan | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | | 1982 kan | 3 6 0 | 0 0 | | 1986 buf | 2 5 0 | 0 0 | | 1987 buf | 7 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1988 buf | 12 4 0 | 1 1 | | 1989 buf | 9 7 0 | 0 1 | | 1990 buf | 13 3 0 | 2 1 |**** | 1991 buf | 13 3 0 | 2 1 |**** | 1992 buf | 11 5 0 | 3 1 |**** | 1993 buf | 12 4 0 | 2 1 |**** | 1994 buf | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1995 buf | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | | 1996 buf | 10 6 0 | 0 1 | | 1997 buf | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 143 112 0 | 11 8 | | Adj TTL | 94 97 0 | 2 4 |**** win % 0.49 (0.33-playoffs) Belicheck | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1991 cle | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | | 1992 cle | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1993 cle | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1994 cle | 11 5 0 | 1 1 |**** | 1995 cle | 5 11 0 | 0 0 | | 2000 nwe | 5 11 0 | 0 0 | | 2001 nwe | 11 5 0 | 3 0 |**** | 2002 nwe | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | | 2003 nwe | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 2004 nwe | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 2005 nwe | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 99 77 0 | 11 2 | | Adj TTL | 49 63 0 | 1 1 |**** win % 0.43 (0.50-playoffs) Noll | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1969 pit | 1 13 0 | 0 0 | | 1970 pit | 5 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1971 pit | 6 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1972 pit | 11 3 0 | 1 1 | | 1973 pit | 10 4 0 | 0 1 | | 1974 pit | 10 3 1 | 3 0 |**** | 1975 pit | 12 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1976 pit | 10 4 0 | 1 1 | | 1977 pit | 9 5 0 | 0 1 | | 1978 pit | 14 2 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1979 pit | 12 4 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1980 pit | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | | 1981 pit | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1982 pit | 6 3 0 | 0 1 | | 1983 pit | 10 6 0 | 0 1 | | 1984 pit | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | | 1985 pit | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1986 pit | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | | 1987 pit | 8 7 0 | 0 0 | | 1988 pit | 5 11 0 | 0 0 | | 1989 pit | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | | 1990 pit | 9 7 0 | 0 0 | | 1991 pit | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 193 148 1 | 16 8 | | Adj TTL | 145 137 0 | 4 6 |**** win % 0.51 (0.40-playoffs) Johnson | Year TM | W L T | W L | +----------+--------------+----------+ | 1989 dal | 1 15 0 | 0 0 | | 1990 dal | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1991 dal | 11 5 0 | 1 1 |**** | 1992 dal | 13 3 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1993 dal | 12 4 0 | 3 0 |**** | 1996 mia | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1997 mia | 9 7 0 | 0 1 | | 1998 mia | 10 6 0 | 1 1 |**** | 1999 mia | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 80 64 0 | 9 4 | | Adj TTL | 34 46 0 | 1 2 |**** win % 0.43 (0.33-playoffs)

All I want is a great lineman. If we can trade down and still get the best one on the list then great. But keep the eye on the ball, improve the lines.

To even suggest Marv can't coach, is to not have any clue whatsoever. To simply throw out 4 years of his coaching career as though they were trivial moments in his career and use that as any reference to his ability is absolute absurdity. Why not throw out all the other HOF caoches 4 best years and then compare, at least that would be a veiled attempt at reasonability? But, that's not the point is it. The point is exactly what has been suggested, just inane attempts to get a rise and create a little controversy; an attempt to creat a post and watch that post be responded to in any way somehow justifies a simple existence.

Exactly. Apparently Marv can do nothing right. If he goes after released players, then he's signing scrubs. If he goes after RFAs then he's wasting his time because his offer will just be matched. So what should he do? Double the contracts he's offering to get these guys to sign? It's called business. You win some, you lose some. But you have a plan, you implement that plan, you modify that plan, you move forward. But you certainly don't quit playying just because someone out bid you.

I'm reluctant to reply to such drivel, but its Sunday morning and I'm bored so what the heck. Exactly what should Marv and company be doing? I see all this complaining, but little in the way of reality. Should we sign Wells with a 10mill signing bonus? I bet AZ wouldn't match that. Should we have went all out and signed Drew Breeze? Sure, spend all our money and get a qb who may or may not recover from surgery, only to have him play behind the same crap line that's gotten every qb here in the last several years creamed. And now because we spent all our cap on a qb and 1 lineman, it won't get better. I imagine the people posting that we should be doing more are the ones that go all in if they have a queen, king draw when they play poker. No patience, no understanding of what it takes to win, and no idea of how to really build something with longevity. That's all I'm seeing here. Oh yeah and I forgot... what have everyone else in our division done that's so great? Because at this point, I can't see it. Sure they've made moves, but so have we. Its all a wash until games are played.

Thanks for the clarity.

... do we conclude that they'll be on the team come fall? In other words, if we sign someone today, can we still cut them this summer with no cap hit? Does that happen very often?

Moulds was a liability by the end of last season with his apparent attitude. It appears, if you believe all the "reports", that he still has an attitude problem. Therefore, he should be gone regardless of the money or compensation.

Yes but they knew they had Edge in the wings. So, my question is simple. Do they have someone in the wings now? Without the threat of a running back that can catch out of the backfield where is their offense?

I'm not so sure about Adams. However, Campbell and Reed never did anything to warrant being retained even as long as they were, let alone another year. So even trade or not, I'm all for dumping those guys.

My visions aren't as clear.... i do see Moulds eating breakfast tomorrow or possibly Tuesday. And I see lots of water, lots of water. I sense that water will be important somehow.

That's ok. My comment was more in general, to a line that I've heard repeated for years. I agree this is definitely not a place for politics and definitely something I would never talk about here. I certainly would not have debated the point. It was really just a brief point in passing. It is nice to see that I'm not the only person alive that doesn't buy into it.

perhaps the biggest lie created and perpetuated in the last 20 years

I couldn't disagree more. I think what Marv is doing is attempting to build a team that will play well for years. Sure, he could go out and sign big name free agents. But its been proven time and time again that, that doesn't mean success. Would you rather we sign TO? Usually big name "in demand" players alos ome with built in egos and attitudes. And who needs that? We all know Marv doesn't like rookies. And I couldn't agree more. Rookies are a crap shoot at best. Some work out, some don't. And of those that do, most take at least a few years to realize their potential. So, its a risky business to build your team around draft picks alone. So what's the other option, sign veteran, well'known free agents. Guys that are on the downside of their career, that want to win now and have all the attitude in the world. Maybe you get lucky and they decide to play together, but get toom any "me" guys together and it often ends in trouble. So, what's the smart way. Exactly what Marv seems to be doing. Signing young guys that have already cut their teeth in the NFl, but aren't super stars, yet. They have many more years left in the tank and lots of upside. If you get the right kind of guys and put them together, you get a solid team that plays competitively for years, ala the Patriots. So, for now, I'm liking the signings. But we'll just have to wait until about November to see how its all really shaping up.

Not a single player on this team has done much over the past 2 years to warrant keeping them at all cost, imo. So, I say if cutting him or anyone gives us more money to build a team, then do it and do it without hesitation. Right now the needs of the team far out wiegh the needs of a player.

The QB debate here is really quite simple and its very much tied to the mentality of the team. Right now the Bills are a losing organization. They haven't really been a good, competitive team for quite a few years. Other than Moulds, none of the current players can remember the last time the Bills were a decent team. So how do you change that? I think you look at teams like Cinci, Seatle, San Diego. How did they change that mentality of the organization? Simple you get a good group of young players and stick with them. Give them a few years to develop together as a team and they'll begin to believe in each other and turn things around. And that, most certainly, includes the QB position. Right now the Bills, have some great young players on Offense. Willis, Evans, and JP. If we put together a decent line this year, and let all those guys play they'll begin to develop and perhaps in 07 we'll make a run for the playoffs. But certainly, if you keep them all together and playing together - with a better group of linemen - we'll be in the playoffs in 08. The surest way to continue inconsistent play and a losing mentality is to continually insert new palyers (ala Arizona) and hope that by some miracle you strike gold and find that group that works together and becomes a winning team.

The guys on NFL network said it last night... "the HOF is becoming a popularity contest just like the Pro Bowl. Nuff said." And I tend to agree with them. And that hurts all of the Bills players because none were the flashy, get in the press all the time kind of guys.

All I know is letting good players go with no viable replacement spelss trouble. One of the biggest mistakes last year was letting Pat Williams go. How much better would our year have been if they just paid up the cash and we kept the defense solid? I want to build the lines more than anyone, but if we get rid of all the other quality players to do so, then we haven't built much. Clements - as piss average as he looked this year - is a good player, with a lot of upside. In my opinion, you do what it takes to keep him or be highly compensated if he's let go.

A few points to keep in mind: 1. Marv doesn't like starting rookies. So, do we really think he's going to trade veterans like Clements and Spikes, just so he can get draft picks and start the new rookies in their place? I can't see that happening. 2. As has been beaten to death here.. .there are no sure things in the draft. (Hence Marv doesn't like to start rookies.) So, why trade picks to get that one special player when you're not even sure he'll be a good player? Why not pick as many lineman as possible and hope at least one of them pans out? Seems like the more prudent approach to me. 3. Trading or moving anything in any way to get Vince Young is just crazy talk. Stop it now, because it shows that you're drinking to much mountain dew or something. 4. Ralph seemed to open the pocket book back in the early 90's with Marv and got alot of quality players. Isn't it reasonable to think he may do it again? So, we may not be going as cheap in the free agent (or coaching) market as everyone assumes.

This thread is about as ridiculous as they come. Does anyone actually think that Marv would make such moves just to select a qb that you know he won't want for at least a few years?

The bottom line with big Mike, and pretty much everyone on the line, is that they haven't done anything with any consistency to deserve any thing, let alone a job in the NFL. If any of them are retained, I'd hope its at a significant pay cut and only to back up whomever we bring in (with the possible exception of Peters). Mike may have a lot of extenuating circumstances surrounding his subpar play. But who cares. Who's to say those types of circumstances won't continue? Also, who cares if he goes somewhere else and becomes the best lineman of all time? He's done nothing here and he's done nothing to show that he ever will here. Sometimes you just have to cut your slack and move on. And this definitely seems like a time to cut some slack.

only because they've hung their fate on the limp arm of a so so qb. not because of his coaching, imo.

I would disagree with this statement. The game has not changed. Times have, and as a result people think things are different. But the way you win in teh NFL is the same way you've always won - you get players of character that care more about winning as a team than they do personal gains. Look no further than the Patriots and you'll see they're built on the dame foundations as all the great teams, including the early 90 Bills; and that's why they're consistent winners. And that, I think, is what Marv is talking about. And that, I think, is exactly what this team needs more than anything. Once we have that attitude in place then we worry about talent.