yall

A lot of people said that about the Japanese after WW2. They may be the exception (and granted it's not as though under the Emperor it was an entirely totalitarian regieme as we know it) but there was an underlying somewhat racist sentiment that those sandle wearing goldfish tenders wouldn't be able to handle democracy.

Well this does bring up some points. Can a religion be bad? Just because a large number of people practice it, and do so without causing violence, does that make it a "good" religion? One of my longstanding criticisms of Islam in general has been that I think a peaceful religion cannot be based upon the actions of an individual who is violent. I also believe that muslims who practice a peaceful variant are ignoring the violent and expansionist history of their religion (much like Jews and christians ignore the ugly parts of their respective scriptures). Everyone likes to cite the examples of other religions at this point, but this discussion is about one religion in particular. Kepp in mind that I'm not saying "ChristianityGood", but I'm trying to understand why people associate Islam with peace, when the actions of it's founder clearly indicate otherwise.

But that isn't necessarily a response to oppression as much as it is Mohammed being savvy enough to try and attract the disenfranchised to his cause. He'd take anyone who listened, including a bunch of criminals and thugs who helped him to carry out violent actions such as caravan raids, beheadings and assassinations. Heck, he killed poets who were critical of him in their prose. Then if the word of God was in conflict with his actions, Mohammed would luckily have more revelations that would make his actions acceptable again. I guess what I'm getting at is that Islam wasn't so much the result of people being oppressed as it was someone making a power grab for themselves.

No stevestojan. Cultural thing maybe, but the names do get confusing.

Please do, as this type of info is pretty hard to unearth (or at least versions that aren't completely tainted).

Given the history of Islam, I'd have to disagree with your inclusion of it in that assertion. Mohammed claimed to receive messages from Gabriel at a point in his life where he was a modestly successful trader. From what I know, this wasn't a counter action to any injustice percieved or otherwise. I can't begin to say he did or did not speak with an angel, but there is no evidence to support your claim that the religion was founded as a reaction to violence or oppression. The first bit of conflict seems to have come when Mohammed was telling the Meccan's that their god's were false and they apparently didn't care for that. He got scared, fled to Medinia and got together some worshippers. He was pretty pissed at the way he was treated in Mecca and plotted revenge against them while slowly gaing power in Medina. While in Medina he preached tolerance but the proclaimed jews should be killed as they openly began to call him out about his contradictory teachings. So, he had all the jews in medina killed. Swell guy. All the while he was organizing raids on Meccan caravans, of which he supposedly led a great number. Then there were some peace treaties with the Meccans to allow the pilgrimage (which was a pagan tradiotn prior to Mohammed incorporating it into Islam... wow, just like Christmas! Nice!) but then once he was powerful enough, he broke the treaty and was basically in control of most Arab tribe. Then he died.

Why can I think of nothing other than Princess Liea (sp?) when I read that?

I hate multi-quotes so BlueFire you are first: I completely understand the point of your post, but it doesn't address the current problem at had which is that Islam does not only have a disproportionate number of extremists, but that they are generally the ones in control. They control the education and subsequently breed more of their own. Where I'm going with this is: what can be done? I'm not advocating that Islam be eliminated (and I'm pretty sure it could not be done anyway). But the problem still exists. Ignoring it will do very little. Over time, as more extremists represent the religion it will be in a phase of greater conflict with other cultures, nations, and religions and the violence will not only continue, but increase. AD: Islam seems to be growing just fine despite it's not-so-foward thinking approach. Where is the incentive to become more moderate if the current plan is generating "membership"? With regard to the "What you're inferring is not what I meant by the phrase." part, I'm not sure what I was supposed to infer by it. It seemed as though you were stating that the current course of Islam was similar to other belief systems in the past where the religion controlled the population, but now that control has wained. I WOULD consider that reform or at least progress. Perhaps I misunderstood...

It goes well beyond just "one moron" and is indicative of a mentality that values the teachings of a violent criminal over human life and freedom. It may not represent all of Islam and certainly not all Muslims....just as a moderate Christian can choose to ignore the nasty bits of the Bible, a Muslim may do the same. But waaaaay to many of them are not moderate, and that is a genuine problem.

"In the manner Islam does now" is exactly what we are talking about here. Yes I would agree that with that clause in place what you have said is a true statement. Take that qualification out and we could argue semantics for days on end. But again it's off topic. Islam's take on individual and human rights is a problem and something needs to be done. I'm hoping it comes from within, as people tend not to like having their belief trampled on by outsiders.

Jeez dude, get your story straight From BlueFire: "I think one of the points that AD was trying to make, or at least how I interpreted it, is that this struggle has already been played out in Christianity and they don't have the power to do such things anymore. Islam, on the other hand, maintains enough power in the Middle East to do so." To which you replied: "Bingo" So which is it: "Struggle already played out" or "zealots back on top of the food chain?"

You never said anything about religious control. You said "when the Christians or Catholics have complete control of any country again" which does describe a lot of South America. Considering the bulk of the South American populus considers itself Christian (including elected officials) I'd say it's pretty firmly in control of Christians. But once again, a thread pointing out major problems with modern Islam, it's interpretation and practice, has involved an inexplicable comparison to Christianity. The two are very different religions from their roots, with one being prone to inciting violence due to the violent nature of it's founder. It needs to be discussed and I'd like to see some Muslim leaders address this issue in particular. The problem then becomes that any percieved criticism of the prophet seems to get someone killed somewhere. edit:poor grammer

But he implies they would if they could, which I feel is probably untrue, because there has already been a reformation period. Without some kind of reform, it (edit : Islam) will continue to be an oppressive and violent religion. Where is Mohammed Luther when you need him?

I think Hilter had a truce with Russia too. Worked out real well for everyone as I recall... But if we are going to rate presidents, shouldn't we agree to some standards for judging them? I say we start with height and weight. From there, we can factor in fishing and hunting accomplishments. In the event of a tie we can count the number of letters in their last name, divide it by the lenght of their penis in centimeters, and award victory to the man who can eat the most jerky.

But that isn't really going on now, or at least it's a miniscule percentage compared to what is going on in the present. I'm not worried about the ghost of Pope Pious coming to convert or behead me. I am worried about the amount of people that want to force Shira upon the world.

Cosidering the amount of Christians/Catholics in Italy and South America, and the fact they aren't pulling this crap, I'd say your point isn't valid. Islam needs it's reformist period. And when you take the history of Islam into consideration you must include it's violent past as well as the violent history of it's founder. Monkey see, monkey do...(and please folks, that's just an expression, not to be interpreted as a slight towards anyone's skin color or ethnicity).

But this IS the religion that is operating violently, and unchecked right now. If this were the 16th century I'd be making the same complaints about Catholicism.

Hooray! Chalk up another victory for the religion of peace!

No worries... maybe after you have that degree in hand to get you the phat job, you'll remember. I figured if I got just one person that would be cool. So even replying and bumping the thread is helping BlueFire!

Bumpity-bump-bump Bumpity-bump-bump Xmas is on the way!

This thread is proving my theory that retardation seems to be contagious.

No problem. I was laid up for a while, and games made a huge difference between complete boredom and a little bit of an escape. If you read the testimonials of former patients or their parents, and see what kind of impact a small donation can DIRECTLY make (without paying the over-inflated salary of some corporate schill working for a charity) you'll want to help.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Child's Play charity: http://www.childsplaycharity.org/ It was started by the guys who run www.penny-arcade.com in hope of getting video games to sick kids stuck in the Hospital. Well, they have added Women and Childrens Hospital of Buffalo to the list (I think possibly due in part to an email I sent a while ago [/selfbackpattingoff]). If you go there it will take you to a "wish list" on Amazon.com where you can make a purchase that will be sent directly to the hospital So come on Buffalonian's and Gamers, show 'em what you got and make a sick kid forget about his ailment for 10 minutes with a game of NHL 07....! (Sticky this if possible...)

Stay safe!

Believe it or not, some cops were d!cks way before that...