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This post is in reply to a post were I said that I had a problem with picking players from the Miami program in general. That they have sent a lot of underachievers over the years. Players that played with no heart, inconsistent and did not show up for all of thier contract years. I proceeded to be jump on by others saying that this statement wasn't true and that I just sais something that I could not back up. This is the proof. I'am not going to bother to compare colleges and this has nothing to do with hindsite. I was called a moron becuase I did not know what I was talking about. i'm not going to bother discussing what makes a good player or draftable player any other nonsense. that has nothing to do with the post. It's just meant as a simple factual accounting to prove that even if you don't agree with me on everything that I have stated about being careful about drafting players from this program you would have to agree that Miami has not had the impact over the years that everybody gives them credit for having and that their are some serous questions. It does not mean that the players in this draft are not good and it does not mean that every player in other rounds have not had impact in the NFL. But it is a bit shocking and if you do not think the NFL has noticed and owners have not put thier GM's scouts etc on notice then you are mistaken. There are lot's of programs that are just as bad. That's not the point.

Another clever person. Gee I hope you guys didn't graduate from Miami. So far this is not a good showing at all. How far did you want me to go back. forever ?????

Such a clever answer. You guys a really smart. I never though of that. Then again I didn't know that I was defending OJ in this post. Does anybody remember OJ being talked about ???? Or is this just one of those post that you don't have anything to say so you throw out something stupid?

I don't know why you bothered to answer the post. I think the post speaks for itself. I guess if you think that 3 players out of 32 is a good succes rate then I have nothing to say to you. Defending Ray Lewis is a joke. Because he went to the Super Bowl everything else that he may do is alright. I just hope for your sake that he doesn't hurt some one close to you. Is this the measure of what a good player is or isn't? What a joke. The original post was on the Free 7 round Mock Draft thread. To be honest with you I don't think it's going to matter to you. Ray Lewis went to the Super Bowl so who care's about anything else. (Sick) He's a great player so what if he's selling drugs or anything else! He went to the Super Bowl.

I guess that's all that really matters making the Super Bowl. What a response!

Miami 1st Round Picks 1990- Cortez Kennedy - Seahawks – 11th pick - very good career 1991- Russell Maryland - Cowboys - 1st pick – excellent impacting career 1992- Leon Searcy - Steelers – 11th pick - Excellent career 1993 – Ryan McNeil – Lions – 4th pick – Solid long career 1994 – no 1st rounders 1995 – Warren Sapp – Buccs –12th pick – A very good impacting career 1996 – Ray Lewis – Ravens – 26th pick – impacting career on and off the field - if used in the correct defense he was impacting. Used not in the correct defense he is good but not impacting. Off field problems embarrassed his team and city and IMO is not worth the trouble. Influence younger players in such a manor that this team is still feeling the repercussions. An embarrassment to the game. 1997 - Yatil Green – Dolphins – 15th pick – Injuries never hit the field. 1997 - Kennard Lang – Redskins – 17th pick – an underachiever playing for the Browns now 1997 - Kenny Holmes – Oilers – 18th pick – An underachiever - Last I heard was with the Packers 1998- Duane Starks – 10th pick – Ravens - impacting career for four years, since 2001 has not been heard from and has been with 3 different teams. Last team – Patriots. Four years does not make a career – an underachiever 1999 – Edgerrin James – 4th pick – Colts – Has been an impacting RB- has come back from a very bad injury but is still not the same tough inside runner he was before the injury but still a good RB that has to be accounted for except on the tough yardage downs. Last two years have been contract years. 2000 – Bubba Franks – 14th pick – Packers – Has not been as impacting as was projected- not an elite TE very inconsistent blocking and in catching the ball. An underachiever. 2001 - Dan Morgan – 11th pick - Panthers – Shoulder injuries in college and shoulder injuries in the pros. It’s hard to impact with this many injuries. 2001 – Damione Lewis – 12th pick – Rams – An underachiever. 2001 – Santana Moss – 16th pick – Jets – was so inconsistent for the Jets they traded him – Exploded this year but in his contract year will have to follow it up and not revert to the inconsistency that got him traded. Can he become consistent? 2001 – Reggie Wayne – 30th pick – Colts – Has improved every year but has also not been dependable in catching the ball. His drops at crucial times of a game have been noted and his lack of toughness going across the middle will keep him as a #2 WR and not a #1 WR as most 1st Round WR picks are expected to be. Best year so far has been this year his contract year. So far an underachiever but the proof will be - do the Colts re-sign him? I can see some people disagreeing with me on Reggie. But that is how I see it. 2002 – Bryant McKinnie – 7th pick – Vikings – Fans are still hurting from this pick. Has one of the better Ole` techniques in the NFL. Should be moved to the right side so he can become average. An underachiever. 2002 - Jeremy Shockey – 14th pick Giants - Exploded on to the NFL but does have problems being consistent in the fourth quarter of close games. This is when his off field late night bar hopping issues rear themselves. Off the field he is the new Ray Lewis waiting to happen. On the field he is impacting but has trouble admitting to his own screw- ups. I hope for the Giants sake he matures before things off the field get worse. 2002 – Philip Buchanan – 17th picks – Raiders - An underachiever – can’t cover very well at all. 2002 – Ed Reed – 24th pick – Ravens – Has lived up to his PR and more. 2002 – Mike Rump – 27 – 49er’s – Has been injured but when he is not injured he has not lived up to his PR – An underachiever 2003 – Andre Johnson – 3rd pick - -Houston – Looks to be living up to his talent. Struggled this year but so did the whole team. 2003 – Jerome McDougle – 15th pick – Eagles – Not much faith that this kid will be any more then a situational player. I have to list him as an underachiever because he is not even challenging to get on the field and not producing when he does get on the field. 2003 - Willis McGahee – 23rd pick – Bills - Seems to play when he feels like it. Has the potential to make an O-line better then it is but did not run with the same heart or determination this year that he showed last year. It’s early in his career but the knee injury excuse is over and the inconsistency in his effort is shocking. If he is promised a new contract then he will show what a good back he is. If not then he will be just a solid back like he was last year. Right now he is inconsistent and an underachiever but that could all change next year. 2003 – William Joseph – 25th pick – Giants – He has been improving from year to year and before his ankle injury this year looked like he was going to improve over last year. Solid so far and improving. 2004 – Sean Taylor – 5th pick – Redskins – When you see Troy Polamalu (2003 –16th pick Steelers) play - I think that’s the type of production you should be getting from Sean and the Skins are not getting that. Add to that some off field issues and so far for the 5th pick of a draft you have an early underachiever with the tail end of a bust and an embarrassment just around the corner. 2004 – Kellen Winslow – 6th pick – Browns – I would normally let this kid off the hook because of injuries but not this time because of the way he got injured while he was still injured. He makes the underachiever list because of his selfishness and immaturity and he might have ruined his career because of it. He goes on to the underachiever list until we all can tell if he is a bust or not. 2004 – D J Williams – 17th pick – Broncos – They take him off the field in passing downs and off the field he has introduced himself to the judge already. It’s early to say if he is a bust because he could straighten out his off field issues and any day now he could become smarter and learn his assignments so he can stay on the field for all three downs. You just never know. We will give him the benefit of the doubt. An underachiever with another potential embarrassment and bust dangling from his neck. 2004 - Vernon Carey – 19th pick – Dolphins – For the 19th pick of the draft he should have started right a way. He is an underachiever right now but he could blossom into a solid O-lineman. The problem with that is you can get a solid O-lineman in any round. 2004 – Vince Wilfork – 21st pick – Patriots - Has done a good job and has improved. He is living up to his PR. 2005 – Antrel Rolle – 8th pick – Cardinals – Has been injured. Let’s count it up: 16 yrs – 32 - 1st Rd picks Lewis = embarrassment = 1 Shockey & DJ Williams – potential embarrassments = 2 15 underachiever’s + 2 inconsistent That equals 20 out of 32 first round picks that have not worked out very well. That leaves 12 players minus off the players who never hit the field because of injuries ( Rolle- Morgan Green) that leaves 9 players out of 32 first round picks. Five of those players were picked before 1996. That means that after 1996 when the great Ray Lewis was drafted the Miami program impact on the NFL is three (3) players from the first round only. Now you can add or subtract a few players that you may disagree with me about but the fact is that - you will be hard pressed to come up with more the eight players out of 32 first round picks that have had a significant impact on the NFL. I consider that – A lot of players.

I think it all comes down to the meaning of the word "succesfull" I do not consider a player from any program who is on a loosing team and has a police record but he is named to the pro bowl-- as succesfull. I do not consider a player that shows up for his first year of his contract and the last year of his contract and has great stats - makes a big killing in free agency and is never heard from again except in police reports --- to be succesfull. There are a lot of VERY good players that have been succesful and have come out of the Miami program and there are a lot of players who have come from this program and have underachived and been an embassement to this program and the Miami Alumni who are good people. The statement was a general statement that did not mention specifics except to say "A lot" The Miami program as FSU, TENN, Florida, Texas and on and on and on have sent very talented underachievers to the NFL. They have also all sent excellent players who have overachieved as well. I am here to say that it is the responsiblitiy of the player drafted to be a success in the NFL. Miami has a very talented program but you have to be very careful because there are a lot of players from this program that underachieve and are bad citizens. Now I want all of you Miami guys to look in the mirror and realise that the program is not perfect. Can you do that ? It is not a reflection on you at all. Do not include yourself in my general statement of the Miami program if it does not apply to you. Just doing well on the field is not enough any more. What's the next step- every Sunday we let all the players who have committed crimes out for the day so they can play the game?

When you finish your doctorate make sure you copy this thread and study it before you interview for a job. At some point I just have to believe that it will all come together for you. One can only hope!

So now make your point buddy !!! Not once did I say that EVERY SINGLE PERSON DRAFTED FROM THIS PROGRAM HAS PROBLEMS. So now pick out somebody else that is a good person. The fact is this program sends A LOT of kids to the NFL that underachieve, and don't show up for their entire contract and lack heart. OK BUDDY!!! Got the picture now. A general statement that is correct if any of you bother to do a search on some of the players that have been mention by you guys who are all upset over a truthful statement. BUDDY! Frank Gore may or may not be a good person but I am talking about more then one player. You guys kill me. You come up with Frank Gore as an aurgument. What round was he picked in? How could he be an underachiever when he was hurt all the time in college and now has been hurt in the pro's also? What does Frank Gore have to do with this post. How could he be considered and underachiver. nobody expects anything from Frank Gore except for him to stop getting injured. OK BUDDY!!!!

The injury factor at the RB position makes trading up not likely. I know it has happened but I just don't know about moving up to the first pick of the draft for a RB. You would have to give up too much and great RB's can be picked in any round. But that is just my opinion. Packers at#5- could take L. White or in the secound round a lot of potential RB's. Cards- need a lot more then RB and unless they feel Leinart is a need I don't see it. But stranger things have happen. Ravens at #13 Would have to give up a lot but they might try. I just don't think Houston wants to move back that far but it's possible. Patriots - Do you really think that Houston wants to move back to the # 21 st pick of the first round when they have the very 1st pick? Like I said teams will move up for a QB but I just don't see it happening for a RB. But it has happened (Ricky Williams) Not the first pick but was projected as the first pick. Maybe that will happen for Bush!

The question is who wants to trade up? Some team with a real bad need (Jets) for a young QB or RB (Jets) but not think that another QB or RB (Jets) at the position they are at now will be good enough. Houston could move back a few spots and pick up Ferguson and some extra picks if the Jets want to get ahead of N.O to draft Leinart. Other then that move I don't see a team that wants to move up to the first pick. So if Houston is stuck with the first pick do they pick Bush or Mario Williams or Ferguson? Bush could make the O-line better and Carr better because he is such a threat. Ferguson would make Carr better and Williams could make the defense line better. What would you do? Bush for me!

So I guess what you are saying is --that you did not read my original post and have no idea what I am talking about. Way to jump in and spout off.

I guess you don't remember Jim Kelly when he was young. Most of us on the board Do. Jim turned out ok and turned himself around but it was a struggle. Even he admits that.

Ha K --Try going back to the begining of a thread before you jump in with such wonderful words of wisdom. Typical doctor - going forth with just half the story.

Just go ahead and search the names. What are you all so afraid of? The truth! Reason with yourselves. Or try too.

And still you do not search their names and look at their police files. Moron that I am I'm still smart enough to have more brains then to just give one side of the story. Look at all sides before you call someone a moron.

So then go back to your original post and explain it all to us because what I read was - You are questioning peoples opinions because you do not think that they are qualified to have those opinions because they did not play the game or any sports at all. At least that's how I understood your original post.

Excellent post. You are da man!

OK --You still don't get it. If you are in college then I pity your teachers! The post was about Philip Rivers and how he was an excelent College QB. Maybe the best that was ever seen. Now try to follow me! It does not matter what college QB's I used to compare Philip rivers too. What matters is that because he was a good college QB (Maybe the best) It has nothing to do with his abilities to be succesful at the next level. Now I will leave it up to you to pick the college of your choice and the QB's of your choice who have been great college QB's but have failed at the next level to compare Rivers too. There - are you happy now? Next time try to stay on post. It will help you when you interview for a job in the future.

Please ! Your giving me a friggin headache. Get your head out of your hind quarters. I'm not even go to try to get you to grow up and see these players for what they are. Try seaching there names and paying attention to what they really do in real life. You really think that this is a clean program and these guys are good citizens? Lewis and Taylor are the tip of the iceburg.

Your own paragragh proves my point. I just bet if you had to shell out the money for these clowns you would think differently. I see about four names on that list that haven't been in trouble with the law and maybe two that have shown up for the full length of their contracts. You guys are easy. You just proved my point. Go find some other names. It won't change.

Your living in a dream.

Very good point except I'm sure the Miami faithful would have gone bonkers also for pointing that out. I can't win. My point is about Rivers. Thanks for trying to help me out.