Kenwick Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have not been around long enough to know if the Bills have the same kind of talent they had years ago when Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun, no huddle offense. My question is will it work this time around? What makes the Bills offensive coordinator believe it will? We have a 3rd year quarterback who still has not proven himself to many of the fans. We have a whole new starting offensive line with unproven depth. We have a 4th round, 7th round and now another 4th rounder TE and none is known for their great blocking or streaching the field abilities. We have some damn good WRs this season...... Forturately we have three pretty good runners.... but what has that to do with the K-gun... I dunno... I wish someone could tell me if they think it will work like it did years ago... and god did it work for the Bills years ago. They tore up the league. Scored points like a machine gun spitting bullets......Had defenses laying on the ground. Could it happen again with the crew the Bills will now have on offense this coming season ? again... I dunno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluv Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I don't know if the fast paced aspect of the KGun will work but the personell philsophy should as Trent plays better from 3 WR sets. The FB and TE positions don't add much benefit to the running game as we struggled when we tried 2 back sets. Passing from those sets were equally daunting as even though teams dropped the 8 man in the box they could double Lee and live with the other threat. Even with TO, the Fb doesn't add much and there is still not a proven TE passing threat. This team is loaded with talent at WR. If they run a 3WR look offense then they would FINALLY have an OFFENSIVE IDENTITY in which they have a personell set in which they can equally pass or run which leads to less PREDICTABILITY. I'm confident that both Lynch and freddie can run from spread sets especially when teams dropback to defend against Lee, TO, and company. Motion them out the backfield against nickle LB's and watch them shake in their boots. Now the O-line might not be up to task as I am not sold on Wlaker at LT but you never know. If they go with the 3 Wr set, allow Trent to actually pass more when behind center and run more shotgun draws,playactions, and screens then this offense will be less predictable and then on occasion when they have teams on their heels or want to lay the dagger go up tempo and crush the oppnents throats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think they are missing the K (McKeller) and the gun (Kelly's arm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have not been around long enough to know if the Bills have the same kind of talent they had years ago when Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun, no huddle offense. My question is will it work this time around? What makes the Bills offensive coordinator believe it will? We have a 3rd year quarterback who still has not proven himself to many of the fans. We have a whole new starting offensive line with unproven depth. We have a 4th round, 7th round and now another 4th rounder TE and none is known for their great blocking or streaching the field abilities. We have some damn good WRs this season...... Forturately we have three pretty good runners.... but what has that to do with the K-gun... I dunno... I wish someone could tell me if they think it will work like it did years ago... and god did it work for the Bills years ago. They tore up the league. Scored points like a machine gun spitting bullets......Had defenses laying on the ground. Could it happen again with the crew the Bills will now have on offense this coming season ? again... I dunno They are talking about doing no huddle not K-gun. Main difference being that the quarterback will not be calling the plays. No huddle can work if have a monster defense, since the offense isnt on the field very long. Or is needed if have a really bad defense, since always playing catchup all the time. Since they have neither, other than a nice change of pace, I hope they wont play it more than a few series a game. If they do, have a felling our defense will be giving up allot of points in 4th quarters of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach55 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I don't know if the fast paced aspect of the KGun will work but the personell philsophy should as Trent plays better from 3 WR sets. The FB and TE positions don't add much benefit to the running game as we struggled when we tried 2 back sets. Passing from those sets were equally daunting as even though teams dropped the 8 man in the box they could double Lee and live with the other threat. Even with TO, the Fb doesn't add much and there is still not a proven TE passing threat. This team is loaded with talent at WR. If they run a 3WR look offense then they would FINALLY have an OFFENSIVE IDENTITY in which they have a personell set in which they can equally pass or run which leads to less PREDICTABILITY. I'm confident that both Lynch and freddie can run from spread sets especially when teams dropback to defend against Lee, TO, and company. Motion them out the backfield against nickle LB's and watch them shake in their boots. Now the O-line might not be up to task as I am not sold on Wlaker at LT but you never know. If they go with the 3 Wr set, allow Trent to actually pass more when behind center and run more shotgun draws,playactions, and screens then this offense will be less predictable and then on occasion when they have teams on their heels or want to lay the dagger go up tempo and crush the oppnents throats! I think once Marshawn returns, it should become the "J-gun". Thus having a no-huddle offense with Owens, Evans, Lynch and Tight End (to be named) and then Jackson being the flex person. Jackson's vast ability make the formations endless while keeping the same 5 skill positions on the field. He has already proven that he can play both FB and WR. With keeping a TE in the game, they could run either a 2 back set or spread the offense. This will force defenses to run nickels at all times, opening up the running game and creating mismatches if they stay in a base formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinWPB Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 They are talking about doing no huddle not K-gun. Main difference being that the quarterback will not be calling the plays. No huddle can work if have a monster defense, since the offense isnt on the field very long. Or is needed if have a really bad defense, since always playing catchup all the time. Since they have neither, other than a nice change of pace, I hope they wont play it more than a few series a game. If they do, have a felling our defense will be giving up allot of points in 4th quarters of games. Once again people, stop confusing the "hurry up or k gun'' with time off possession. The QB can still run the playclock down to 1 sec. Bringing the team over center quickly does however prevent some defensive substitutions and gives the QB more time to figure out what defense he is looking at and to call audibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach55 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Once again people, stop confusing the "hurry up or k gun'' with time off possession. The QB can still run the playclock down to 1 sec. Bringing the team over center quickly does however prevent some defensive substitutions and gives the QB more time to figure out what defense he is looking at and to call audibles. One other point of note is given that the QB's are all wired, the coordinator still can call the plays even in a no-huddle situation (as done in Indy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have not been around long enough to know if the Bills have the same kind of talent they had years ago when Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun, no huddle offense. My question is will it work this time around? What makes the Bills offensive coordinator believe it will? We have a 3rd year quarterback who still has not proven himself to many of the fans. We have a whole new starting offensive line with unproven depth. We have a 4th round, 7th round and now another 4th rounder TE and none is known for their great blocking or streaching the field abilities. We have some damn good WRs this season...... Forturately we have three pretty good runners.... but what has that to do with the K-gun... I dunno... I wish someone could tell me if they think it will work like it did years ago... and god did it work for the Bills years ago. They tore up the league. Scored points like a machine gun spitting bullets......Had defenses laying on the ground. Could it happen again with the crew the Bills will now have on offense this coming season ? again... I dunno Hamgartner will be a big factor on whether it works or not- a good center is critical in the no-huddle. He has to make the proper calls and line adjustments. The rest of the line goes without saying. Edwards doesn't have Jim Kelly's arm, guts or intangibles, but he is much better at this stage than Kelly was at reading defenses. Matchups will be critical- and Owens can be the guy that forces advantageous matchups. The critical matchup may not be him, but if he can force a linebacker or safety to cover a RB/WR it will help immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWPABillsfan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hamgartner will be a big factor on whether it works or not- a good center is critical in the no-huddle. He has to make the proper calls and line adjustments. The rest of the line goes without saying. Edwards doesn't have Jim Kelly's arm, guts or intangibles, but he is much better at this stage than Kelly was at reading defenses. Matchups will be critical- and Owens can be the guy that forces advantageous matchups. The critical matchup may not be him, but if he can force a linebacker or safety to cover a RB/WR it will help immensely. I agree the center is the one that can make or break the no huddle. Remember back when the K-gun was the off. if you go back and check out the tapes you will see thet ,because of Kent Hull, our line almost looked like they knew what D the other team was running most of the time. When the Center gets up too the line he makes the line calls and that my friends is what makes the no huddle work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Syracuse Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 They are talking about doing no huddle not K-gun. Main difference being that the quarterback will not be calling the plays. No huddle can work if have a monster defense, since the offense isnt on the field very long. Or is needed if have a really bad defense, since always playing catchup all the time. Since they have neither, other than a nice change of pace, I hope they wont play it more than a few series a game. If they do, have a felling our defense will be giving up allot of points in 4th quarters of games. The '90 Bills didn't exactly have a "monster" defense. They had some players that were defensive monsters but they still gave up a ton of points and yards. What they did do is create turnovers that almost always led to touchdowns. I have fond memories of Mark Kelso playing defense on the other side of the county. Bruce routinely over ran running plays and Jeff Wright wasn't exactly all world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsZubaz Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I have not been around long enough to know if the Bills have the same kind of talent they had years ago when Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun, no huddle offense. My question is will it work this time around? What makes the Bills offensive coordinator believe it will? We have a 3rd year quarterback who still has not proven himself to many of the fans. We have a whole new starting offensive line with unproven depth. We have a 4th round, 7th round and now another 4th rounder TE and none is known for their great blocking or streaching the field abilities. We have some damn good WRs this season...... Forturately we have three pretty good runners.... but what has that to do with the K-gun... I dunno... I wish someone could tell me if they think it will work like it did years ago... and god did it work for the Bills years ago. They tore up the league. Scored points like a machine gun spitting bullets......Had defenses laying on the ground. Could it happen again with the crew the Bills will now have on offense this coming season ? again... I dunno Running Back plays a LARGE part in the K-Gun or a No Huddle attack. First of all they need to be able to do blitz pick up. Beyond that see Thurman Thomas leading the league in yards from scrimmage for several straight years...RB is a vital outlet and weapon in this scheme. Tight end is a huge question mark. However, we have the WR talent to make up for a short coming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 The '90 Bills didn't exactly have a "monster" defense. They had some players that were defensive monsters but they still gave up a ton of points and yards. What they did do is create turnovers that almost always led to touchdowns. I have fond memories of Mark Kelso playing defense on the other side of the county. Bruce routinely over ran running plays and Jeff Wright wasn't exactly all world. Jeff Wright was an excellent player- all pro caliber if he was used the correct way. He just wasn't a Ted Washington type that was suited for playing NT. He gave Dan Marino and Warren Moon fits though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 The '90 Bills didn't exactly have a "monster" defense. They had some players that were defensive monsters but they still gave up a ton of points and yards. What they did do is create turnovers that almost always led to touchdowns. I have fond memories of Mark Kelso playing defense on the other side of the county. Bruce routinely over ran running plays and Jeff Wright wasn't exactly all world. I disagree, They had a great defense, just not great numbers. Other than safety position they had no real weaknesses. They were on the field allot more than normal due to the low time of possesion of thier offense, which affected the numbers. If they had a conventional offense, the defense would have looked allot better on paper, and they would have recieved allot more respect, but they probably wouldnt have gone to as many superbowls, if any, so worth the trade off for sure. Bruce did overplay pass allot, but they usually where playing from the lead, so he had his ears back allot. And while Wright wasnt the strenght of the defense, he held his own on most downs, and didnt really have any glaring weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I agree the center is the one that can make or break the no huddle. Remember back when the K-gun was the off. if you go back and check out the tapes you will see thet ,because of Kent Hull, our line almost looked like they knew what D the other team was running most of the time. When the Center gets up too the line he makes the line calls and that my friends is what makes the no huddle work. This is very true. The line needs to be able to commicate well and all be on same page. The center has to be able to make the calls and adjustments quickly, and the whole line needs to see the same things in order for those adjustments to be successfull. Center is as important as quarterback for this type of attack to be successful consistantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Hamgartner will be a big factor on whether it works or not- a good center is critical in the no-huddle. He has to make the proper calls and line adjustments. I agree the center is the one that can make or break the no huddle. Remember back when the K-gun was the off. if you go back and check out the tapes you will see thet ,because of Kent Hull, our line almost looked like they knew what D the other team was running most of the time. When the Center gets up too the line he makes the line calls and that my friends is what makes the no huddle work. This is very true. The line needs to be able to commicate well and all be on same page. The center has to be able to make the calls and adjustments quickly, and the whole line needs to see the same things in order for those adjustments to be successfull. Center is as important as quarterback for this type of attack to be successful consistantly. Excellent. The Colts were overjoyed when they were able to re-sign Jeff Saturday this offseason. I've often heard that his intelligence and understanding of Xs and Os is fundamentally important to the Colts offensive success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero47 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 one of the most critical elements of the no-huddle, hurry up offense is to prevent the defense from changing personnel, therefore you are playing pretty much against the defensive sets each play. When we lost to Washington in the second superbowl and beyond, we slowed down the plays by 6 seconds or more. The washington coordinator at the time picked that up and he was able to practice sending different players on and off the field without getting caught with 12 on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Once again people, stop confusing the "hurry up or k gun'' with time off possession. The QB can still run the playclock down to 1 sec. Bringing the team over center quickly does however prevent some defensive substitutions and gives the QB more time to figure out what defense he is looking at and to call audibles. Yes they could sprinkle in some sugar huddles, and walk-by huddles and stand at line to let clock wind down to prevent substitutions, but still tend to run plays faster in that type of offense. Dont see any evidense of teams running nohuddle winning the time of posession. The total number of plays that both teams run typically is higher than average, and the time the defense of teams that run no huddle is on field typically averages around 34-35 minutes. While they can run it down to 1 seconds, unless they are trying to run out the clock, they dont stand over center that long very often. They may slow it down to 10-15 second left, if they do allot of audibles but still there is usually over 10 seconds left when ball is snapped more often than not. The numbers are easily skewed since most of teams using no huddle are down by 2 scores or more when running it, and makes my point look better than probably is, but even looking at college teams that run it, the time the defense is on field, and number of plays they are on field for is ussually pretty high. Basically what am trying to say, while your point is valid, that it is possible to run no huddle slowly, It usually is not run that way, and the time of possession battle is usually lost by teams that run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/04/sports/p...st-defense.html Decent article on no-rest defense of the K-Gun era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 http://giantsfans.net/index.php?option=com...7&Itemid=43 Better article outlining both some strengths and weaknesses of using no-huddle attack. Offensive line aggressiveness is one of items that the author feels suffers in no-huddle attack. Based on draft and people they brought in, it appears that they are trying to get a more aggressive offensive line. Seems to me that last few years line, which was good at pass blocking, but not good at running game was better fit for no-huddle than what they are building for this year. Seems that the nasty in your face run blockers would want fit better with a more traditional type of offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nero47 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 http://giantsfans.net/index.php?option=com...7&Itemid=43 Better article outlining both some strengths and weaknesses of using no-huddle attack. Offensive line aggressiveness is one of items that the author feels suffers in no-huddle attack. Based on draft and people they brought in, it appears that they are trying to get a more aggressive offensive line. Seems to me that last few years line, which was good at pass blocking, but not good at running game was better fit for no-huddle than what they are building for this year. Seems that the nasty in your face run blockers would want fit better with a more traditional type of offense. Beg to differ. The k-gun no huddle was built around the running game, not passing. the defense was forced to play up to the line to try stopping Thurman. our mistake in SB1 was to not run Thomas enough, as the giants played off to counteract the long pass. unfortunately we played into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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