Poeticlaw Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 I will say, to the credit of Schobel, the play of the Bills went down drastically without him in the game. You Know what I didnt want to resign Kelsay I was glad he was going but just the mere fact that we resigned him hurt us tremondously because schoebel is better than Kelsay so therefore Schoebel need an extension to increase his salary But I was soo looking forward to him being a free agent next year because he isnt as good as everyone makes him out to be. HE IS A HARWORKING DE and never gives up definatley a High moor guy but this team constantly overpays for declining or no talent players on this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Osrry but the bills ranked 27 with 22 sacks and 26th with only 9 interceptions. NO pressure to the qbs leading to Ints Maybe incomplete passes but you would have to go throgh each individual game to see if the Dl was the cause of that. Sorry to bust up your theory You are talking about team stats which dont reflect on him as an individual...Our starting safety was our 5th string WR for crying out loud. We had very little talent on our D due to injuries last year, so that is not a fair assesment. He still had SIX forced fumbles (#2 in the league) and 96 tackles for a DE... Lets play a game of who am I: 14 games played, 2.5 sacks, 38 tackles.... Give up? Julius Peppers last year...Schobel tripled his out put last year, but you wanna throw big money at him? You think Peppers didnt still scare D Coordinators last year? Peppers only had more than 60 tackles in a season once (64 in 2004) and Schobel had 96 last year as a DE... So say what you want about his only 6.5 sacks...but he still had a pretty good season overall and it was one of his worst statistically in terms of sacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie in Dallas Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Hopefully Tim Tebow. Tebow is NOT a pro QB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 That might be so regarding his respect around the league. And I agree stats don't tell the full story. My point is solely this. In my opinion, he is a great Defensive End that gets dragged down by the poor talent of his teammates and thus the extra attention he gets makes him less effective. WHAT I WANT, is an EVEN BETTER Defensive End, that is good enough to make everyone around him better because of how effective he can be, even when he is given the extra attention. I don't buy this, "well everyone else is around him sucks so his talent is negated", great players always beat out the extra attention they get. This is especially true of players on the Defensive Line. I will say, to the credit of Schobel, the play of the Bills went down drastically without him in the game. Julius Peppers 2007 stat line 14 games, 2.5 SACKS We all have an off year, and Schobels off year had TRIPLE the sack output of Peppers and Schobel had LESS talent on the D...heck, peppers had Kris Jenkins last year...What did Schobel have? We also a band aid D with all the injuries and he STILL tripled Peppers output. Sacks dont tell the whole story about a player... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABills08 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Julius Peppers 2007 stat line 14 games, 2.5 SACKS We all have an off year, and Schobels off year had TRIPLE the sack output of Peppers and Schobel had LESS talent on the D...heck, peppers had Kris Jenkins last year...What did Schobel have? We also a band aid D with all the injuries and he STILL tripled Peppers output. Sacks dont tell the whole story about a player... So by your logic you are concluding that Schobel is as good if not better than Peppers. Correct? I mean you make a good point. Though Schobel has one year on Peppers, they have roughly the same career sack numbers. A lot of complaints on Schobel revolve around his inability to get sacks when it "counts". But Peppers has far more sacks when behind than he does when ahead (40 to Schobel's 30). But your logic would conclude that Schobel has the same impact as Peppers. I just don't think that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 This has been a pretty interesting thread with mercifully few stupid comments and many good points. For serious NFL fans, here's a link to the draft trade chart devised by Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson that is still used today to trade draft picks. http://www.profootballtalk.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/ The chart is becoming obsolete and one of the hottest issues arising as we approach the next CBA between players and owners is a rookie wage scale. If that becomes a reality, the trade chart might change a bit but right now, it is still used by the teams and not deviated from very much. I have it in my favorites/bookmarks for reference when people start throwing around crazy, unrealistic trade proposals. The Bills are positioned nicely for the draft in that they probably won't be picking above #8 so they will avoid the picks who get ridiculous signing bonuses (the reason that very few teams trade up into the top five) and yet will have access to a top prospect. This was pretty much the case last year when we drafted Leodis McKelvin who I believe will blossom into a top cornerback next year. From what I see Leodis has excellent ability, attitude, and toughness. He needed a year to adjust to the NFL after playing at Troy. He'll justify his selection, hopefully more than Whitner who I like but think probably went too high. Another free agent to be/elite pass rusher is Terrell Suggs although he doesn't necessarily fit the Bills' current defensive scheme. I agree with those of you who believe we should be running a 3-4 but I think good coaching should allow any top talent to thrive in any system. You have to be committed to making it work. On the subject of pass rushers, these frustrating times cause many Bills' fans to want to blow things up and start from scratch. However, objectively the Bills are a young, rebuilding team. Early this season it appeared they were ahead of schedule. Lately it seems as if they're on or behind schedule in rebuilding. If they overreact to the late season swoon and tear things apart they're back to square one. I think it's better to salvage what you can. It's just too hard to turnover 1/3rd of the roster and expect any success the next year. And there are some players on the roster who are building blocks, at least for the next 2-3 years. Aaron Schobel for instance, should be kept until we have someone who is actually better. There are very few proficient pass rushers in this league and even though he's not truly elite, you can't let him go when there's no one else. Hopefully he'll have a bookend next year who's as good or better than he is. My hierarchy of needs: PASS RUSHER (draft and/or free agent): Good DBs on the roster but no pass rush. Recipe for bad 3rd down defense. RECEIVING THREAT (free agent): Evans and Lynch only weapons on offense. Jackson good but doesn't start. Because of the rarity of rookie receivers making an impact, we need a veteran to give QB's another weapon. It doesn't matter if it's a wideout or a tight end to me. One more target in the passing game would make a huge difference. There's not enough good skill position threats to pressure good defenses. DEFENSIVE TACKLE: We have a starter, Kyle Williams, who should be a reserve. He's a high motor guy, just like Justin Bannan and forty other unathletic tackles in this league who make rosters because they're scrappy. If we had a good tackle to play alongside Marcus Stroud (plus another pass rusher) we'd have the makings of a really good defense. LINEBACKER AND CENTER: IMO, yes you'd like to upgrade these positions so do it if you can. But you don't go crazy with high draft picks or huge free agent contracts. UNLESS THE VALUE IS THERE. In other words if he's the best player available in the draft when you're picking or if he's undervalued in the free agent market. I am among those who believe that Duke Preston has been improving and playing well. And yes, it looks like the Bills will have a shot at Laurinaitis or Maualuga and they might possibly be the best players available when we draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 You Know what I didnt want to resign Kelsay I was glad he was going but just the mere fact that we resigned him hurt us tremondously because schoebel is better than Kelsay so therefore Schoebel need an extension to increase his salary But I was soo looking forward to him being a free agent next year because he isnt as good as everyone makes him out to be. HE IS A HARWORKING DE and never gives up definatley a High moor guy but this team constantly overpays for declining or no talent players on this team. Agreed. We extended Brad Butler, Kelsay, Kyle Williams and Roscoe Parrish. I think all those signings were dubious. Like him or not, Jason Peters should be getting this money. You pay money to top line players and fill in the rest of the roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 So by your logic you are concluding that Schobel is as good if not better than Peppers. Correct? NO, I wrote SACKS DONT TELL THE WHOLE STORY and talent DOES matter around a player. You think its a coincidence that Schobels worst year statistically is also the same year we had our worst D unit in decades on the field? And yet, he still tripled Peppers sack production who DIDNT lose a ton of players to injury. Everyone wants to rip Schobel over sacks, but he is one of the better run stopping DE's in the league, still had 6.5 sacks last year which is solid considering all the injuries, was 2nd in the league in forced fumbles and was all around effective. And to FURTHER illustrate this is look at our D this year with him on the field and off the field...we were a much better team with him on it. And someone pointed out the AZ game...that had NOTHING to do with schobel. Warner would do a quick 3 step drop (the fabled Peppers couldnt reach Warner in that game) and immediately shoot the ball out to a WR crossing over the middle wide open because our D Backs were told to play 10 yards off the most dangerous WR corp in the NFL. That was defensive coaching that lost us that game, not Schobels inadequacies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 NO, I wrote SACKS DONT TELL THE WHOLE STORY and talent DOES matter around a player. You think its a coincidence that Schobels worst year statistically is also the same year we had our worst D unit in decades on the field? And yet, he still tripled Peppers sack production who DIDNT lose a ton of players to injury. Everyone wants to rip Schobel over sacks, but he is one of the better run stopping DE's in the league, still had 6.5 sacks last year which is solid considering all the injuries, was 2nd in the league in forced fumbles and was all around effective. And to FURTHER illustrate this is look at our D this year with him on the field and off the field...we were a much better team with him on it. And someone pointed out the AZ game...that had NOTHING to do with schobel. Warner would do a quick 3 step drop (the fabled Peppers couldnt reach Warner in that game) and immediately shoot the ball out to a WR crossing over the middle wide open because our D Backs were told to play 10 yards off the most dangerous WR corp in the NFL. That was defensive coaching that lost us that game, not Schobels inadequacies... Schobel had 1 sack in 5 games (even with Stroud). So, at that rate, he would of had 3 sacks to finish the year. Yes, Schobel has been good at forced fumbles & good against the run, but most of the time he barely gets a whiff of the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 And in case it is still not clear...I am NOT saying Schobel is better than Peppers, I am saying even the great Peppers had a WAY WORSE year than Schobel and that just PROVES the point that sacks DONT tell the whole story, because IF the did you would have to say Schobel is better, which I am NOT. Point is, Schobel is a pretty good DE, like it or not, and there isnt a single team in the NFL that he wouldnt be a starter on. He may not be Elite, but he is pretty good. He is considered a better DE in the run game than most, including Peppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABills08 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Agreed. We extended Brad Butler, Kelsay, Kyle Williams and Roscoe Parrish. I think all those signings were dubious. Like him or not, Jason Peters should be getting this money. You pay money to top line players and fill in the rest of the roster. Good point. I understand why Roscoe was kept. You can't blame the coaches for being optimistic about his potential. I mean the guy has natural talent, he just isn't that bright and doesn't know how to shake defenders. He is small, but there is no reason to think he couldn't play well if we got him the ball in the open field. Plus, his talent on special teams can't be overlooked. Kelsay and Williams are just terrible. I still can't understand those moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 To further the discussion here's Scout Inc's Top Prospects for the upcoming draft: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft And here's Mel Kiper's: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/melkiper/index Of note. No centers on the Scout's Inc list. Two on Kiper's (Alex Mack, Max Unger). Plenty of defensive ends and linebackers on both lists. Three tight ends total on the two lists (Brandon Pettigrew, Chase Coffman, Jermaine Gresham). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Schobel had 1 sack in 5 games (even with Stroud). So, at that rate, he would of had 3 sacks to finish the year. Yes, Schobel has been good at forced fumbles & good against the run, but most of the time he barely gets a whiff of the QB. Peppers had 3 sacks in the first 5 games this year and 11 tackles... Schobel 1 sack and 19 tackles...so yeah, he had 2 less sacks, but made 9 more plays elsewhere...not a terrible trade off. He still DEMANDS the attention of opposing teams and that showed as he made STROUD better when he was on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 And in case it is still not clear...I am NOT saying Schobel is better than Peppers, I am saying even the great Peppers had a WAY WORSE year than Schobel and that just PROVES the point that sacks DONT tell the whole story, because IF the did you would have to say Schobel is better, which I am NOT. Point is, Schobel is a pretty good DE, like it or not, and there isnt a single team in the NFL that he wouldnt be a starter on. He may not be Elite, but he is pretty good. He is considered a better DE in the run game than most, including Peppers. I agree with your assessment of Schobel and Peppers. If we signed Peppers hypothetically, I think it's beyond debating that we'd have a strong pass rush. Opponents could only double one of them and it would create a matchup/game planning advantage for the Bills. Same thing happens when you have two excellent targets in the passing game. We need someone to go with Schobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I agree with your assessment of Schobel and Peppers. If we signed Peppers hypothetically, I think it's beyond debating that we'd have a strong pass rush. Opponents could only double one of them and it would create a matchup/game planning advantage for the Bills. Same thing happens when you have two excellent targets in the passing game. We need someone to go with Schobel. Agreed. Schobel & Peppers are 2 different players, one is better than the other on certain aspects of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Ron Popeil ... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABills08 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Peppers had 3 sacks in the first 5 games this year and 11 tackles... Schobel 1 sack and 19 tackles...so yeah, he had 2 less sacks, but made 9 more plays elsewhere...not a terrible trade off. He still DEMANDS the attention of opposing teams and that showed as he made STROUD better when he was on the field. I think you have a solid argument based on the numbers. But, it is important to note that just bc Schobel had 9 more tackles, does not mean those tackles were meaningful. Tackles are always a dubious statistic too and never tell the full story. I think you are right in saying that Schobel is a better player than most of us give him credit for. However, I think you are wrong in thinking that Schobel extensively disrupts an opposing offense's gameplan. He is a finesse DE, end of story. He is good in his own right, but he doesn't make anyone around him a better player. He is not a physical specimen that can completely run over the OT he faces. He is an above average defensive end on a below average defense. He is a hard worker and never gives up. I give him all the credit in the world for those things. But he is not the defensive presence on the field that the Bills desperately need. I'm not saying we should get rid of him at all, I am just saying we need more at DE. If you feel confident with a Schobel/Kelsay/Denney rotation you are one of the few. If you do not feel confident about that rotation, it either says really bad things about Kelsay and Denney, or it says Schobel's play does not impress you as much as his statistics do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasoninMT Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Sadly us old timers were spoiled by Bruce Smith who didn't care about double teams... I don't think we need an absolute freak to bookend w/ Schobel... but it wouldn't hurt! Have they ever switched sides w/ Schobel to mix it up and create confusion on O-Lines? I remember the one game where we did the "standing" d-line a lot and it worked out real well. I'd like to see them mix things up once in a while and keep o-lines guessing. And not necessarilly on 1st Down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSNBDSC Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 In my opinion Center is and always has been the weakest link to the offensive Line. I say we draft a Center with the first round pick only if its ALEX MACK they say he has probowl potential written all over him and hes smart and a leader and hes a pure center not a converted Ol to be center. I know some are thinking DE pass rusher but unless the bills are willing to eat the salaries of Schoebel and Kelsay I dont foresee that happening. So lets start the who do we draft first thread: With the #12 Pick of the 2009 draft tyhe Bills select: Center Alex Mack ... would he be the "Mack Daddy" or the "Daddy Mack" ? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I think you have a solid argument based on the numbers. But, it is important to note that just bc Schobel had 9 more tackles, does not mean those tackles were meaningful. Tackles are always a dubious statistic too and never tell the full story. I think you are right in saying that Schobel is a better player than most of us give him credit for. However, I think you are wrong in thinking that Schobel extensively disrupts an opposing offense's gameplan. He is a finesse DE, end of story. He is good in his own right, but he doesn't make anyone around him a better player. He is not a physical specimen that can completely run over the OT he faces. He is an above average defensive end on a below average defense. He is a hard worker and never gives up. I give him all the credit in the world for those things. But he is not the defensive presence on the field that the Bills desperately need. I'm not saying we should get rid of him at all, I am just saying we need more at DE. If you feel confident with a Schobel/Kelsay/Denney rotation you are one of the few. If you do not feel confident about that rotation, it either says really bad things about Kelsay and Denney, or it says Schobel's play does not impress you as much as his statistics do. I agree with you, and yes tackles are not telling the whole story either. My only point is that the guy is pretty good football player. I never said great, but he is pretty darn good. I am in NO WAY confident with a Schobel/kelsay/denney rotation and think we need another DE on the other end. I said cut denney and make kelsay the back up and bring in through FA or a draft another DE. I was only illustrating how this guy gets so much flack yet is a really good all around player who makes our D noticeably better when he is on the field. He would benefit greatly from another threat (which we definitely need) on the other end. But even without that threat he has still managed to be one of the statistically better DE in the NFL over his career, but for some reason it seems like the fans want to dump on him and run him out of town. Some even saying to trade him for a lousy 4th round pick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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