2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 This. Who knows if we had taken the Florida DE this year if Jax didn't trade up for him. My guess is probably yes. Since he was gone, the worst thing we could've done was reach for another one, or Malcolm Kelly as many suggested. Denney & Kelsay are not good starters - it's strange how this is universally agreed upon after every loss, but now "zomg 5 sacks!"? It is one game - you don't draft based on opening day stats from the previous year. Good post. I was PRAYING for us to take Harvey. Guess we'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Denney & Kelsay are not good starters - it's strange how this is universally agreed upon after every loss, but now "zomg 5 sacks!"? It is one game - you don't draft based on opening day stats from the previous year. I respectfully disagree. They aren't superstars, but they are both good, in fact Schobel is very productive. I think that you will change your mind if Stroud stays healthy. When he forces qbs out of the pocket, both of these guys have the speed to make the play. In this sense, I hope that the Bills make the DT position even stronger next year. There is room; McCargo didn't even suit up on Sunday. It wastes too much energy to compare every DE to Bruce and every QB to Kelly. I know you didn't write it, but it seems like a common habit for Bills Fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I respectfully disagree. They aren't superstars, but they are both good, in fact Schobel is very productive. I think that you will change your mind if Stroud stays healthy. When he forces qbs out of the pocket, both of these guys have the speed to make the play. In this sense, I hope that the Bills make the DT position even stronger next year. There is room; McCargo didn't even suit up on Sunday. It wastes too much energy to compare every DE to Bruce and every QB to Kelly. I know you didn't write it, but it seems like a common habit for Bills Fans. They're the Melvin Fowler of our defense. I'd throw it out there that the spot can be upgraded for a guy who doesn't have to rotate in and out as much. An athletic pass rusher, can go a long way for the 4 de set Fewell wants to use. Making it that much more productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Again, the idea isn't to "upgrade the #5 DE position." Thats like saying that we don't need to draft a tight end because we "don't need to upgrade the #3 TE position." If you want to use what an incoming draftee would be on DAY ONE at DE, you have to do the same with TE. The idea no matter what position you draft in the first two rounds is that, within a few years, they'll represent an upgrade to the previous STARTER at that position. This is no more likely at tight end than it is at LDE, or 'DT2,' for lack of a better term. Kelsay and Denney can continue to offer locker room leadership and special teams play while filling only rotational roles on the defensive line. Thats already their role anyway. you advocate picking a DE in the first or second round and either letting him learn behind the vets and not get any game experience or steal one of the vet's spot on gameday (forcing denney, kelsay, or ellis to the inactives or being cut altogether).......i don't think that is a realistic option that the bills would embrace because they like the guys they have there and, as a result, will use that resource to get a player who can help them on gameday right away........one of the positions in which a day one pick could be inserted into the gameday lineup immediately and have an impact is at TE........time will tell how the bills approach it, but i think the writing is on the wall personally, i'd rather add a player that can help in 2009 vs. 2010, and i think the bills will view it the same way i do think that come the 2010 off-season this will be a top priority for the bills, as denney's spot will be opening up (if they choose not to resign him, and probably won't as he'll be going on 33 by then)........this will allow a younger player to come in and push kelsay/ellis for playing time as the #4 DE with potential to get more snaps as the season goes on by the way, i was also onboard with harvey in the first round, but ellis effectively filled that roster spot and i think in the end he's a very good consolation prize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 you advocate picking a DE in the first or second round and either letting him learn behind the vets and not get any game experience or steal one of the vet's spot on gameday (forcing denney, kelsay, or ellis to the inactives or being cut altogether).......i don't think that is a realistic option that the bills would embrace because they like the guys they have there and, as a result, will use that resource to get a player who can help them on gameday right away........one of the positions in which a day one pick could be inserted into the gameday lineup immediately and have an impact is at TE........time will tell how the bills approach it, but i think the writing is on the wall personally, i'd rather add a player that can help in 2009 vs. 2010, and i think the bills will view it the same way Like they did this year? And a 1st round DT could absolutely help us on gameday right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Like they did this year? And a 1st round DT could absolutely help us on gameday right away. mckelvin and hardy both made the ACTIVE roster.....and given that, they'll have a chance to earn snaps as the year goes on who do you sit so that a 1st round DT can be ACTIVE on gamedays? stroud, williams, or johnson? can this 1st round DT beat out mccargo if they decide to dress 4? i don't think that is in the bills plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 mckelvin and hardy both made the ACTIVE roster.....and given that, they'll have a chance to earn snaps as the year goes on who do you sit so that a 1st round DT can be ACTIVE on gamedays? stroud, williams, or johnson? can this 1st round DT beat out mccargo if they decide to dress 4? i don't think that is in the bills plans To your first question, none of the above: we dress four, as we've done almost every week since Jauron took over. This team rotates linemen, and if we have 4 quality DTs, there is usually room for them on gameday. To your 2nd question, if he beats out McCargo, thats great. If McCargo beats him out...thats also great. Keep in mind I'm NOT trying to tell you DT is a need. I'm just saying if there's a real impact player on the board that they're in love with, they shouldn't close themselves off from going there. So if McCargo is beating out a true blue-chip 1st round DT to start on gameday, that means he has really lifted his game up from where it is now. In turn, the rook needs to bear down and pick his game up to take someone's spot on gamedays. That means your 1st round pick has lifted the overall performance of arguably the 2nd most vital position in football. And in 2-3 years when Stroud's contract is coming up and he's aging, we have a replacement for him who we believe can make a similar impact to Stroud at the position. Does that seem like such a bad scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 To your first question, none of the above: we dress four, as we've done almost every week since Jauron took over. This team rotates linemen, and if we have 4 quality DTs, there is usually room for them on gameday. To your 2nd question, if he beats out McCargo, thats great. If McCargo beats him out...thats also great. Keep in mind I'm NOT trying to tell you DT is a need. I'm just saying if there's a real impact player on the board that they're in love with, they shouldn't close themselves off from going there. So if McCargo is beating out a true blue-chip 1st round DT to start on gameday, that means he has really lifted his game up from where it is now. In turn, the rook needs to bear down and pick his game up to take someone's spot on gamedays. That means your 1st round pick has lifted the overall performance of arguably the 2nd most vital position in football. And in 2-3 years when Stroud's contract is coming up and he's aging, we have a replacement for him who we believe can make a similar impact to Stroud at the position. Does that seem like such a bad scenario? as i'm sure your aware, they only dressed 3 vs the seahawks no, i'm not onboard with turning mccargo into a #5 DT or sitting a 1st round talent with the inactives on gameday - i think that is a horrible waste of talent and resources.......mccargo has all the motivation he needs right now after getting scratched for opening day and i expect him to respond........i don't think he needs a 1st round DT to push him........to bring in another 1st round DT this off-season would be a complete waste because he would sit on the bench behind a very solid 4 man group obviously i think more of mccargo then you do, which is fine given his inconsistent play to date.......as the season goes on we'll find out just what kind of player he is with his back to the wall, but i have a feeling the bills management hasn't given up on this guy like so many on this board have.....i think they still like the guy a lot and see him as a big part of the future.......and i think at the end of the day he can be exactly what you want - a replacement for stroud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 So if McCargo falls on his face, you'll agree that DT is just as much of a 'need' as TE is? Forgive me, but I really didn't think that was the crux of the debate. But fair enough, I can live with that, 'cause you're right in that I don't have a very high opinion of him anymore. Lets hope you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 So if McCargo falls on his face, you'll agree that DT is just as much of a 'need' as TE is? Forgive me, but I really didn't think that was the crux of the debate. But fair enough, I can live with that, 'cause you're right in that I don't have a very high opinion of him anymore. Lets hope you're right. the crux of the debate is a numbers game - i think the bills are quite happy with their current group and don't have room for anyone else, and you think they should make room if the opportunity presents itself mccargo would have to take a serious nosedive in performance to make DT an option for the bills this off-season, and i just don't think that is realistic (barring injury)......even if he didn't live up to expectations this season i think the bills would still give him '09 to prove himself given his 1st round status and reasonable contract.......he'd have to show no flashes of potential and absolutely stink for them to move on without him in their plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 mccargo would have to take a serious nosedive in performance to make DT an option for the bills this off-season, How much lower does it get than not dressing in your 3rd season? He'll probably dress Sunday in Jacksonville because of the heat. Yet the fact remains that in three training camps and three preseasons, McCargo has failed to distinguish himself to the coaches who watch him in practice everyday. If he stood out to them, he would have been in uniform. If he's the next Marcus Stroud as you say, why is he deemed unworthy to wear a uniform in his 3rd season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 How much lower does it get than not dressing in your 3rd season? He'll probably dress Sunday in Jacksonville because of the heat. Yet the fact remains that in three training camps and three preseasons, McCargo has failed to distinguish himself to the coaches who watch him in practice everyday. If he stood out to them, he would have been in uniform. If he's the next Marcus Stroud as you say, why is he deemed unworthy to wear a uniform in his 3rd season? it's not like the bills are starting scrubs in front of him - stroud, williams, and johnson have all earned snaps as well.......as jauron said after the game, it was a "numbers" thing because of special teams the bills coaches have been known to make mistakes - for example, they decided that jason webster deserved playing time over greer last year.......how did that work out again? i never said he was "the next Marcus Stroud"......i said he could be his replacement, meaning in terms of playing time..........big difference..........unfortunately, it is no guarantee that a 1st round DT from next year's draft will be the next Marcus Stroud - just look at who we are talking about here obviously your very down on him, but i would be shocked if the bills were as sour on him as you are - if they were he'd probably be off the roster by now........they liked him enough to trade up in the first to get him, so i think he's got a long leash to prove his value to the team, and that leash will extend into next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I don't want to keep going around in circles. The defensive line is just so important that if they saw a guy they really believed could be a great player and cause havoc in opposing backfields, I can't believe they'd pass on him for fear of mediocre players not having roster spots. If I'm GM, no 'numbers game' is going to stop me from looking at the dominant defense I can get from putting another stud DT next to Marcus Stroud, or another Pro Bowl speed rusher across from Schobel. With a roster that doesn't have many positions screaming for needs, I feel like the Bills are in a position to make those kind of luxury picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 linebacker, receiving threat TE, and possibly a DT if there is a stud out there to replace McCargo (if by the end of the year the coaches think he's done here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I don't want to keep going around in circles. The defensive line is just so important that if they saw a guy they really believed could be a great player and cause havoc in opposing backfields, I can't believe they'd pass on him for fear of mediocre players not having roster spots. If I'm GM, no 'numbers game' is going to stop me from looking at the dominant defense I can get from putting another stud DT next to Marcus Stroud, or another Pro Bowl speed rusher across from Schobel. With a roster that doesn't have many positions screaming for needs, I feel like the Bills are in a position to make those kind of luxury picks. that about sums it up and, of course, i fall on the other side of the spectrum where as i believe the bills have positions that they know are set and they fill in the gaps elsewhere......that is certainly the way they have drafted early the past 3 seasons........time will tell if they continue that trend going forward or if they truly take the BPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauderswr80 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Royal is our pass catching TE. Right now there is noone in the draft good as Royal is. I dont understand why people dont like Royal. I think next year we draft LB and possibly OL........actually next year Buffalo might be able to afford a luxury pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJBuffalo Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Our upgrades at DT and LB will def improve our run D. That said I can see us next year getting a freak athlete, that may not be as good against the run as Kelsay or Denney, to rush the passer opposite schobel. This does not have to be a first rounder or key free agent and may in fact be Chris Ellis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey3 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Are options wont be as great for a top notch prospect because we are going to be using the 32nd pick \ jags punting on first down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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