Mikie2times Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We have a few posters consistently devalue CB's because we play the zone based cover 2. The theory is why waste resources at CB when we don't lock up in man situations. While the theory seems logical, I don't feel like it applies to our situation. No cover 2 teams play both corners up, two safeties deep, and drop the mike LB every play. Having said that I do recognize we play cover 2 on a good percentage of downs, and when the system is played as intended it would devalue an elite CB. This situation actually played out in Detroit, as they switched over from man to zone, and Dre Bly (an obvious man corner) got frustrated and demanded a trade. If you recall the same situation was also playing itself out in Buffalo before the 2006 bye week.. In 2006 over the first 7 games Buffalo gave up an average of 221 yards passing, with 10TD's/5 INT's. Nate was getting frustrated he couldn't show off his talents in a contract year, and McGee struggled without the additional help he was used to. It was clear to many our CB's were playing in a system that under utilized our talents. After the bye week Jauron decided to abandon the original game plan and revert back to more man coverage. The result over the final 9 games was an average of 193 passing yards per game, with 8TD/8INT. In terms of yardage we actually finished 7th in pass defense in the 2006 season, and 3rd in DVOA vs a teams #1 WR according to footballoutsiders.com. In 2007 we suffered threw a lot of injuries to our secondary, but it was clear from the outset our pass defense was going to struggle. When it was all said and done we finished 27th in yards per game, and 12th vs #1 WR’s (keep in mind we ranked 30th against #2's, which makes you wonder how often we doubled the #1’s). Irregardless our pass defense dropped off dramatically from 06 to 07. Jauron showed us he is willing to adapt to a hybrid cover 2 if the talent warrants it. The drop off in production from 06 to 07 suggests we would benefit from such a talent. To further the case we face Randy Moss twice a year now, and he's just not a guy you can release to a SS or FS deep (see George Wilson). Sure we need to keep improving the pass rush, but that’s not always an option, and if a true #1 CB is an option I don’t expect us to shy away from it just because we play this style of defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We have a few posters consistently devalue CB's because we play the zone based cover 2. The theory is why waste resources at CB when we don't lock up in man situations. While the theory seems logical, I don't feel like it applies to our situation. While I completely agree with you about the talent aspect, the thing that comes front and center to me is the money. On a team like this that isn't willing to spend boat loads of money on most of it's players, an elite CB on a cover-2 defense doesn't seem to be in the cards. If this team is going to pick and choose who gets the big contracts (who the "elite" players they are willing to pay to stick around) it has to be the front 7. The whole cover 2 system depends on great play up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted March 16, 2008 Author Share Posted March 16, 2008 While I completely agree with you about the talent aspect, the thing that comes front and center to me is the money. On a team like this that isn't willing to spend boat loads of money on most of it's players, an elite CB on a cover-2 defense doesn't seem to be in the cards. If this team is going to pick and choose who gets the big contracts (who the "elite" players they are willing to pay to stick around) it has to be the front 7. The whole cover 2 system depends on great play up front. Agree totally, but will we be able to get an elite pass rush out of our DL? I just don't think we can generate it, even with Stroud. Schobel is a great DE, but he's not a headliner DE for an elite cover 2 front. Kelsey/Denney don't qualify as that either. We have a lot of $ already locked into our ends, and now our DT's, so I can't see us spending that much more on the front 4. In an ideal world the upgrade at DT will solve most our problems, it's just hard to tell if our DE's will respond enough to make this work conventionally. I hate this defense because it places such a high value in areas that are very hard to find good players in. In our situation the quickest path to recovery might be an elite CB in a hybrid cover 2 system. Obviously a better pass rush is ideal, I just question our ability to GW (execute) it, and lets face it, without that rush if you play conventional cover 2 your screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 >>>>We have a few posters consistently devalue CB's because we play the zone based cover 2.<<<< Ignore them. The secondary is the most crucial part of any team. >>>>> Sure we need to keep improving the pass rush, but that’s not always an option, and if a true #1 CB is an option I don’t expect us to shy away from it just because we play this style of defense.<<<<< I disagree. Pass rush and stopping the run pale in comparison to the secondary. Playing in the elements and a cover-2 defense makes no difference either. Lines notwithstanding, the team with the most 1st round corners and safeties usually, if not always wins. And puhleaze....don't even try to make a case that having good wideouts and tight ends matter even one iota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Cover 2 or no Cover 2 the Bills need a big CB. Last year in the first round they were considering Darrelle Revis. This year I think they go WR and then CB. I think Limas Sweed first and then Reggie Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We have a few posters consistently devalue CB's because we play the zone based cover 2. The theory is why waste resources at CB when we don't lock up in man situations. While the theory seems logical, I don't feel like it applies to our situation. No cover 2 teams play both corners up, two safeties deep, and drop the mike LB every play. Having said that I do recognize we play cover 2 on a good percentage of downs, and when the system is played as intended it would devalue an elite CB. This situation actually played out in Detroit, as they switched over from man to zone, and Dre Bly (an obvious man corner) got frustrated and demanded a trade. If you recall the same situation was also playing itself out in Buffalo before the 2006 bye week.. In 2006 over the first 7 games Buffalo gave up an average of 221 yards passing, with 10TD's/5 INT's. Nate was getting frustrated he couldn't show off his talents in a contract year, and McGee struggled without the additional help he was used to. It was clear to many our CB's were playing in a system that under utilized our talents. After the bye week Jauron decided to abandon the original game plan and revert back to more man coverage. The result over the final 9 games was an average of 193 passing yards per game, with 8TD/8INT. In terms of yardage we actually finished 7th in pass defense in the 2006 season, and 3rd in DVOA vs a teams #1 WR according to footballoutsiders.com. In 2007 we suffered threw a lot of injuries to our secondary, but it was clear from the outset our pass defense was going to struggle. When it was all said and done we finished 27th in yards per game, and 12th vs #1 WR’s (keep in mind we ranked 30th against #2's, which makes you wonder how often we doubled the #1’s). Irregardless our pass defense dropped off dramatically from 06 to 07. Jauron showed us he is willing to adapt to a hybrid cover 2 if the talent warrants it. The drop off in production from 06 to 07 suggests we would benefit from such a talent. To further the case we face Randy Moss twice a year now, and he's just not a guy you can release to a SS or FS deep (see George Wilson). Sure we need to keep improving the pass rush, but that’s not always an option, and if a true #1 CB is an option I don’t expect us to shy away from it just because we play this style of defense. Great Post. I think the best all-round corners in this draft are DRC, McKelvin and Cason, in that order. I'm leaving Jenkins out until I find out more about his "character issues". DRC and McKelvin (at least one) should be there at #11. Cason WON'T be there at #41. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Judge Haller :"Mr.Gambini, That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out objection." Vinny: "Thank you, Judge" Judge Haller;"Overruled!" Rattle the rifle. QB Pressure neutralizes Moss-type speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 not a waste. But the cover 2 defense makes other positions more important. The cover 2 actually protects the CBs. With the salary cap and cost of free agents, teams need to prioratize positions based on their defensive scheme. Bills drafted Winfield in the 1st round. he played great. Then the bills let him go to FA. Bills drafted Clements in the 1st round. he played great. Then the bills let him go to FA. (we could have signed him a year earlier for a reasonable contract). Its clear that the bills will not invest much into that position relative to other positions on the team. This is why I do not see the bills drafting a CB in the 1st round of this years draft. having a great player at any position is great, but the bills would rather have a great player at another position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 You're correct. It's bull crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBilliever Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Am I the only one who thinks that we have two very solid corners on this team? Sure, we could get a great corner, but I see other glaring needs for this team. Get me a Wide Reciever, a Tight End, rotational pass rusher, a Full Back, LB depth, and a solid backup LT, THEN get me a corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I don't think we have two solid CB's at all, I think they are both borderline nickle/#2 types. I also understand we have other pressing needs, and would sign Will James and go CB in round 2 or 3. For all you "we run the cover 2 so CB's don't matter crowd", Fewell has stated we run it only about 20% of the time, so they are needed more than most think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I don't think we have two solid CB's at all, I think they are both borderline nickle/#2 types. I also understand we have other pressing needs, and would sign Will James and go CB in round 2 or 3. For all you "we run the cover 2 so CB's don't matter crowd", Fewell has stated we run it only about 20% of the time, so they are needed more than most think. Talented players are needed at every position, but I think that focusing too much on the secondary (not accusing you of this) is part of the dreaded "playing not to lose" mentality. The only truly great football team that I can remember who had their most talented defenders in the secondary was the Raiders of the late 70's. That said, their offensive line was perhaps the best ever and they were loaded up with skill players. Once the Bills get stronger and deeper on both lines, and bring in players who can catch a football (including TE, a position at which we have sucked for at least 10 years), I will be all about early round corners. At least I think this. Right now, there are far more pressing needs. Jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 In agreement. Like I said, just throwing ideas around, something like signing Will James and drafting a CB in the 2nd or even 3rd round could work fine. I think James could start on the outside and the draft pick could replace Greer who, prior to this year, always did enough to make the team, but put it in cruise control for the regular season. I'm not sold on him, and would like some new blood brought in. As for TE Bill, will we ever get a good one?!?!?! We can only keep wishing I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 In agreement. Like I said, just throwing ideas around, something like signing Will James and drafting a CB in the 2nd or even 3rd round could work fine. I think James could start on the outside and the draft pick could replace Greer who, prior to this year, always did enough to make the team, but put it in cruise control for the regular season. I'm not sold on him, and would like some new blood brought in. As for TE Bill, will we ever get a good one?!?!?! We can only keep wishing I suppose. How did Boss slip to round 5? Can you explain this to me? The guy is 6'7", runs patters, and blocks like an OT. Yor are right, we gotta keep hoping for a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 How did Boss slip to round 5? Can you explain this to me? The guy is 6'7", runs patters, and blocks like an OT. Yor are right, we gotta keep hoping for a break. wel we still have th same guys evaluating TEs that have been failed for the last 7 years. don;t get your hopes up beyond the clowns they have signed so far to impersonate TEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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