stuckincincy Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 On the surface, this sounds reasonable. Until you count the men in the box. With Losman under center, defensive coordinators had no respect whatsoever for the passing game, so they ganged up to stop the run. There's not much point in running McGahee into an eight or nine man wall for a 1 yard gain. 687266[/snapback] If you run the up back - the fullback - on a quick count up the middle with drive blocking a few times, the defense will ponder their 8 or 9 in the "box" plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 The whole idea of competition at quarterback is stupid to me. The ONLY way, only way, to find out if Losman is going to be good or our franchise quarterback is to line him up under center game one series one in the regular season and let him play eight straight games. That's the only way. It doesn't matter if he's great or crappy in practice or pre-season or in the first game. The only way to know is to play him and keep playing him for several games. In the real games. Under fire. In the first quarter at 0-0 and in the fourth quarter at the two minute warning down by a TD. Only way. It's also the only to way to know about Craig Nall but Losman has a bigger upside than Nall as well as a bigger investment, so it's also stupid to give Nall that first crack at it. The competition is a ruse and publicity ploy. Losman is going to start and he's going to sink or swim. That's how we're going to know. Not in a three way competition in OTA's and mini-camp and pre-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mborn Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 We will not be able to run the ball at all this year because our offensive line can't runblock. There will plenty of third and longs and lots of sacks and hurries and hits on our quarterback. 686665[/snapback] Really, you have seen them play already this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Couple of things.... 1) who annointed JP the starter? 2) don't compare the Bills to the Red Sox....things aren't that bad. 3) who said JPs' starting 4) see 1 & 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Couple of things.... 1) who annointed JP the starter? 2) don't compare the Bills to the Red Sox....things aren't that bad. 3) who said JPs' starting 4) see 1 & 3 687348[/snapback] 1) TD 3) People assume that's the only good outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 1) TD 3) People assume that's the only good outcome. 687356[/snapback] Really?!?! I thought TD was tossed to the curb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Really, you have seen them play already this year? 687337[/snapback] It's a prediction/opinion. I think we're going to suck in the running game this year, which will lead to other problems, but I could be wrong (doubtful). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 3) People assume that's the only good outcome. 687356[/snapback] Oh yeah.....we all assumed we'd draft early for OL/DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I think this would be more true if the old regime, the people who actually made the investment in JP, were still around. For all we know, Marv and Dick might not like his game and how it fits with the new offense, his potential based on college film and the limited pro action he's seen, his personality and leadership style, or any combination of these or other factors. The whole idea of competition at quarterback is stupid to me. The ONLY way, only way, to find out if Losman is going to be good or our franchise quarterback is to line him up under center game one series one in the regular season and let him play eight straight games. That's the only way. It doesn't matter if he's great or crappy in practice or pre-season or in the first game. The only way to know is to play him and keep playing him for several games. In the real games. Under fire. In the first quarter at 0-0 and in the fourth quarter at the two minute warning down by a TD. Only way. It's also the only to way to know about Craig Nall but Losman has a bigger upside than Nall as well as a bigger investment, so it's also stupid to give Nall that first crack at it. The competition is a ruse and publicity ploy. Losman is going to start and he's going to sink or swim. That's how we're going to know. Not in a three way competition in OTA's and mini-camp and pre-season. 687326[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 The whole idea of competition at quarterback is stupid to me. The ONLY way, only way, to find out if Losman is going to be good or our franchise quarterback is to line him up under center game one series one in the regular season and let him play eight straight games. That's the only way. It doesn't matter if he's great or crappy in practice or pre-season or in the first game. The only way to know is to play him and keep playing him for several games. In the real games. Under fire. In the first quarter at 0-0 and in the fourth quarter at the two minute warning down by a TD. Only way. It's also the only to way to know about Craig Nall but Losman has a bigger upside than Nall as well as a bigger investment, so it's also stupid to give Nall that first crack at it. The competition is a ruse and publicity ploy. Losman is going to start and he's going to sink or swim. That's how we're going to know. Not in a three way competition in OTA's and mini-camp and pre-season. 687326[/snapback] What is upside? Based on what people thought of the QB when he was drafted? How much that is invested into a QB is irrelevant. Sunk costs are sunk costs and the only thing that should be considered is who will do the best job at starting QB now. I truly hope this isn't a ruse and that however incomplete a picture you see in training camp and the pre-season they truly use that to make their decision. They have to pick a QB somehow and past draft position should not be the sole deciding factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Really?!?! I thought TD was tossed to the curb. 687357[/snapback] The point is that he was the only who has done it, albeit in the past. Fans have no say in the end. But I just hope that people aren't pinning their hopes of the season on JP starting. They should just be pinning their hopes on competent QB play by someone this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 The point is that he was the only who has done it, albeit in the past. Fans have no say in the end. But I just hope that people aren't pinning their hopes of the season on JP starting. They should just be pinning their hopes on competent QB play by someone this season. 687370[/snapback] We are on the same page. I am looking for the most competent QB as well. Right or wrong, I believe there will be a QB competition. JP may very well win that competition, but Nall will push him. May the better QB win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I think this would be more true if the old regime, the people who actually made the investment in JP, were still around. For all we know, Marv and Dick might not like his game and how it fits with the new offense, his potential based on college film and the limited pro action he's seen, his personality and leadership style, or any combination of these or other factors. 687364[/snapback] It's still true regardless. Losman has great wheels and a cannon for an arm. He can throw on the run. He already has terrific ball handling skills. He has #1 pick talent and Nall has #5 talent. His upside is bigger than Nall's if they both play up to their potential, and Nall is just as big a question mark since he hasn't played a game let alone a season as a starter against major competition EVER, including college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 What is upside? Based on what people thought of the QB when he was drafted? How much that is invested into a QB is irrelevant. Sunk costs are sunk costs and the only thing that should be considered is who will do the best job at starting QB now. I truly hope this isn't a ruse and that however incomplete a picture you see in training camp and the pre-season they truly use that to make their decision. They have to pick a QB somehow and past draft position should not be the sole deciding factor. 687366[/snapback] That isn't the point. The point is you won't be able to tell in practice. Chances are that Holcomb is going to look better than both of them in practice. You cannot tell in how well they play in pre-season games. Any of them could look the best in those kinds of situations. You can only tell with real bullets in real games after an extended look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 It's still true regardless. Losman has great wheels and a cannon for an arm. He can throw on the run. He already has terrific ball handling skills. He has #1 pick talent and Nall has #5 talent. His upside is bigger than Nall's if they both play up to their potential, and Nall is just as big a question mark since he hasn't played a game let alone a season as a starter against major EVER, including college. 687440[/snapback] I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I think our QB of the future is not currently a part of this roster. Nall, Losman, Holcomb. Bleh. I don't disagree with your analysis (except perhaps with the contention that Losman has #1 pick talent; he certainly was DRAFTED in the first round, but I don't think he has the natural touch and accuracy on his passes of a true #1 talent). The part of your post that I don't consider to be true is the one about the QB competition being a ruse. I think that would be the case under the old regime, but I think the new regime is serious about the competition and have no attachment to Losman and no reason to just hand him the starting job. I think a true competition can't hurt. If you look at recent Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, which one of these guys would have lost a competition to Craig Nall and Kelly Holcomb in their third season in the league? My guess is not a single one of them. Losman will sink or swim, but he will do so beginning with this competition. Ben Roethlisberger Tom Brady Brad Johnson Trent Dilfer Kurt Warner John Elway Brett Favre Troy Aikman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I think our QB of the future is not currently a part of this roster. Nall, Losman, Holcomb. Bleh. I don't disagree with your analysis (except perhaps with the contention that Losman has #1 pick talent; he certainly was DRAFTED in the first round, but I don't think he has the natural touch and accuracy on his passes of a true #1 talent). The part of your post that I don't consider to be true is the one about the QB competition being a ruse. I think that would be the case under the old regime, but I think the new regime is serious about the competition and have no attachment to Losman and no reason to just hand him the starting job. I think a true competition can't hurt. If you look at recent Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, which one of these guys would have lost a competition to Craig Nall and Kelly Holcomb in their third season in the league? My guess is not a single one of them. Losman will sink or swim, but he will do so beginning with this competition. Ben Roethlisberger Tom Brady Brad Johnson Trent Dilfer Kurt Warner John Elway Brett Favre Troy Aikman 687468[/snapback] My point is that if there was seriously a competition at quarterback in practice, it is highly likely that Kelly Holcomb would win it. 90% chance. Because he would be more relaible, smarter, more accurate and all of those things we know about him. But that is not who you want as your quarterback IMO because of his limitations and his potential. So IMO the "competition" they talk about really isn't a competition, they are simply going to divide up the reps and then decide on Losman, unless he completely tanks, because he has the most potential to be the franchise quarterback this team needs. And because Nall is just as big a risk as him, regardless of how they play in practice and pre-season. That's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 It's also the only to way to know about Craig Nall but Losman has a bigger upside than Nall as well as a bigger investment, so it's also stupid to give Nall that first crack at it. 687326[/snapback] a) how do you know that losman has a bigger upside? also, please define "upside," and include in it football intelligence, accuracy, arm strentgh, and decision making. b) the size of the investment in each is pretty similar, and certainly not different enough to make it an issue. neither are making a ton of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 a) how do you know that losman has a bigger upside? also, please define "upside," and include in it football intelligence, accuracy, arm strentgh, and decision making. b) the size of the investment in each is pretty similar, and certainly not different enough to make it an issue. neither are making a ton of money. 687500[/snapback] If they both play up to their potential, and the best they can be do you want a slow, sluggish Craig Nall with a decent arm, or do you want a guy with a cannon who can run and scramble and throw on the run, too? It's obvious. Ask yourself who you would want if they both played as well as they can play. It's not even close. Losman is a bigger investment, plain and simple. You're right, they don't make a ton but Losman cost a trade, a #1 pick and almost twice as much money, so that's a bigger investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 If they both play up to their potential, and the best they can be do you want a slow, sluggish Craig Nall with a decent arm, or do you want a guy with a cannon who can run and scramble and throw on the run, too? I want the guy with the better brain. Based on the favorable comments I've seen about Nall from Green Bay fans, it may well be him. A longer thread about Nall also sends the same message--except for the Cal to Green Bay guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I want the guy with the better brain. Based on the favorable comments I've seen about Nall from Green Bay fans, it may well be him. A longer thread about Nall also sends the same message--except for the Cal to Green Bay guy. 687562[/snapback] I want the guy with the best total package that gives us the best chance to win now, this whole year, AND in the future, ALL things considered, which means you may be willing to not play the guy that gives you the best chance to win today if that guy cannot get you anywhere tomorrow and the better chance is only slightly bigger than the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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