Orton's Arm Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 I found this article by Vic. It really caused me to improve my estimate of Ngata, because I respect Vic's judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozymandius Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 What I liked was that Ngata seemed to be knowledgeable about how defensive tackles in the league play. The more he studies his peers, the more he'll learn. I also like that he mentioned he will use the loss of his parents as motivation since they'll finally get a chance to see him play together. Hopefully, his motor will be 100% on all the time when he reaches the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 What I liked was that Ngata seemed to be knowledgeable about how defensive tackles in the league play. The more he studies his peers, the more he'll learn. I also like that he mentioned he will use the loss of his parents as motivation since they'll finally get a chance to see him play together. Hopefully, his motor will be 100% on all the time when he reaches the league. 666683[/snapback] But...But...But...he's fat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 The two raps I have heard on him is that: 1. He tends to take a lot of plays off and go on vacation. 2. He has been subject to a number of nagging nicks that cost him some games and they in particular have occured in his lower body. Both of these issues would strike me as serious disqualifiers for picking him at #8, particularly if some boards have smaller DT but with very strong upper body stregth Bunkley also very likely available at #8 though some pundits like Kiper having Bunkley being taken before Ngata while other have the Bunkster as a mid 1st pick whom the Bills can get even if they trade down. My sense is that though these two complaints are disqualifiers if judged to be true of him as a pro, I can easily see that a judgment might be made that these two issues can be dealth with: First, I am not bothered by a DT who takes 1/4 or as much as 1/3 ofthe plays off if he has a monstously fast first step and fits the Bills Parcells Planet Theory of having the weight and taking up space that he clogs up the middle simply by being there and holding his own. Sam Adams was a great player even though he took a lot of plays off because the opposing DC or players never knew which play he was going on vacation. Opponents simply were forced to double Adams (particularly when his spot was the point of attack) and the main opposing player exhausted himself by being on every play because they never knew when Adams might play seriously and totally enbarass the opponent and blow up the play by penetrating the backfield. TD deserved to be canned when he was as in 5 years under him the Bills never made the playoffs. However, one episode of outstanding work by him was correctly reading Adans that late in his career he finally grew up and several constant watchers of the game felt that Adams took fewer plays off as a Bill than at any time in his career. The same reasons that Adams improved his play as a Bill will not be true for Ngata as Adams realized he was getting older and recommitted himself to make a big effort or his career would be over. However, as Carucci noted, both of Ngata's parents died in the last few years abd reoirts are that in order to deal with this agony he has actually committed himself to working hard. Combined with him moving from the frolic and babes of college life to becoming and adult with professional responsiblities it is quite easy to imaging Ngata improving his play up to the 66-75% on levels where he both is a player who is effective at his position and also liberates Triplett or the DEs to rush the passer with single coverage opposition because the OL is shifting toward Ngat. Amateur viewers like me have our opinions, but they are really worthless in this regard as the best way to judge is to do what i call looking him in the eye and really measuring what kind of man he has become with these life altering changes. Folks who simply dismiss Ngata due to what they judged of his effort in college may be coincidentally correct that he will have the same effort as a pro. Howe ver, this same line of thinking led folks to complain about the TD below cost acquisition of Adams as merely picking up a fat tub of goo. Though these was logic to this view, this logic proved incoreect as: A. People change and mature and the life changes in Ngata's life may be just this type of impetus. B. Even if Adams was a fat tub of goo (instead of the Pro Bowler he was for us) a fat tub of goo was an improvement over using Edwards as a starter. With Anderson first on our depth chart and a fat tub of goo would be an upgardw in my view, the key is for Marv to make the right call on whether in addition to be an athlete judged by most pundits to be worthy of a top ten pick he will become a pro and teammate worthy of a high pick. Given Marv's history of quality management of a diverse and fractious Bills team, I actually trust him to either pass on or take Ngata as his judgment merits. Second, there is the serious rap on him of a series of nagging injuries. The question is whether he is in fact injury prone and should be passed over, or is a history of injuries something which can be avoided by him as a pro with a full time well trained strength and conditioning coach and far better training equipment and techniques available to him as a pro than what he had in college. Again, I think the Bills docs have a proven track record of diagnosing injuries and also perscribing a treatment regime which is effective. The outstanding example of this of course is WM and the Bills docs clearly were better than a large part of the NFL docs in making a good medical. This was a traumatic injury rather than a nagging injury, but again in cases like overseeing the redevelopment of the out of shape body of MW in 2004 and having little history of them cutting a player due to an injury issue only to have him comeback elsewhere under better care, i think the Bills docs can make a good call here. So my general advice to draft watchers is simply to ignore the dead lock certain predictions of us amateurs on TSW and instead comment on whether you trust Marv and the docs regarding choosing or not choosing Ngata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluv Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 If you are a numbers and a stat guy then a DT of his type will look overpaid. But when our LBs are running free stuffing RBs at the line of scrimmage versus 3-5 yards down the field then you will see the difference! The same ones on this board who will criticize the Bills if they make him the 8th pick are probably the same ones that said Big Ted, Fat Pat, and Sam Adams were fat guys who takes up space and easily replaceable as well. To those who say these type don't fit our scheme; these type guys will fit any scheme; 4-3 or 3-4 for if they are hard to move and willing to sacrifice and let other faster talented players take all the glory. But the key is: they have to be surrounded by TALENTED players and you know what: we have that as we still have a great collection of LBs and if we can find a replacement for Pat W our defense will go right back up the charts. Even though the scheme will change in that it will be less blitzing and 2 deep coverage the run D will rise back to the top 5 if we add such a player like Ngata. And with this draft being strong at DE as well, we could get a good bargain in the 2nd as well for if we can add a LE that can rush the passer then our scheme will be complete. My dream draft would be that we could move down a few spots and get an extra 1st or 2nd round pick, still draft Ngata, get a top guard and top pass rush DE and who knows this team might make some noise next year as really what caused us to fall off the map last year was the fall off our defense, especially against the run and our own running game. If we get those back to top form then we can get back to JP managing the game versus having to win the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 I found this article by Vic. It really caused me to improve my estimate of Ngata, because I respect Vic's judgement. 666667[/snapback] Improved your estimation???? In that article I read a lot about him being an out of shape player who doesn't play hard. At least Justice is in shape. I'm leaning towards the Bills getting Justice, Huff or Davis. I'm not liking what I'm hearing about Ngata at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 I found this article by Vic. It really caused me to improve my estimate of Ngata, because I respect Vic's judgement. 666667[/snapback] yeah- that Vic is a top rate talent evaluator. Vic just puts a spin on what people tell him- more likely you like Vic's opinion because he used to write atrticles about the Bills- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 yeah- that Vic is a top rate talent evaluator. 666760[/snapback] Plus someone should tell him the Gumby hairstyle went out 40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipers Hair Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 Has anyone here watched this guy? Everyone has an aponion on him. From the three games I saw him play, I think he is more about untapped potential than out of the box skills. He rarely showed on the radar, but when he did, it was a "Wow" play. I like the guy, but not at the 8th overall. Mike Williams would have fallen in the same category as Ngata and I have not forgotten that bad experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 Improved your estimation???? In that article I read a lot about him being an out of shape player who doesn't play hard. 666759[/snapback] There was absolutely nothing in that article about him being an out of shape player that doesn't play hard. That being said, I don't want the Bills to take him with the 8th pick, though it has very little to do with Ngata. The draft is very deep at DT and there is no reason to take one with a top 10 pick unless he's clearly superior to every other DT in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 There was absolutely nothing in that article about him being an out of shape player that doesn't play hard. That being said, I don't want the Bills to take him with the 8th pick, though it has very little to do with Ngata. The draft is very deep at DT and there is no reason to take one with a top 10 pick unless he's clearly superior to every other DT in the draft. 666787[/snapback] You're right, I followed Vince's link to the player's evaluation and that where I found a few of these nuggets (I know, I know, every player has negatives. I just don't want our first pick being a player who's negative is lacking intensity or drive. We had enough of that in Mike Williams). http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/ngata_haloti NEGATIVE COMMENTS: Plays upright and high often, and doesn't attack the play consistently -- doesn't play with a sense of urgency on every snap. Additionally, has not proven that he works very hard off the field to stay in shape, which will hinder his ability to be durable. The question is whether he becomes the dominant interior player that can dominate games consistently, and that is completely dependent on his willingness to committ to the game off the field and get in better shape to attack every play with a sense of urgency. Ngata has a bad habit of losing focus during game, and it leads to him popping straight up at the snap and doesn't attack the line of scrimmage -- when he does that, he can't get a push on a bull rusher and can be pushed off the line of scrimmage on inside runs. Doesn't consistently use his hands to protect his legs from cut blocks and really gets slowed down by them. He is clearly soft bodied and not in the best of shape, and if he doesn't get into better shape, he will struggle to be the player he is capable of being. When he is aggressive, he is an outstanding bull rusher that can drive the offensive lineman into the quarterback's lap. Too often he plays high and without a sense of urgency, and doesn't protect his legs from low blocks. Overall production has been very good, but tends to waver between excellent and adequate due to his not playing aggressively on every snap. When he attacks the line of scrimmage, Ngata uses his hands aggressively and hustles from snap to whistle. Makes a lot of plays and completely disrupts them in the backfield. The trouble is that at times he pops straight up at the snap and seems content to be pushed around at point of attack -- doesn't use his hands aggressively and can't shed once blockers that get a hold of him. Ngata's pride might take a hit because his build is very soft and fleshy, which ponts to him not showing the discipline or work ethic off the field to stay in good shape. The big issue for Ngata mentally is his inability to maintain his focus and concentration, which leads to him not playing with leverage or intensity on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 There was absolutely nothing in that article about him being an out of shape player that doesn't play hard. That being said, I don't want the Bills to take him with the 8th pick, though it has very little to do with Ngata. The draft is very deep at DT and there is no reason to take one with a top 10 pick unless he's clearly superior to every other DT in the draft. 666787[/snapback] Don't try and contradict people's opinions with the fallacies in their facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 21, 2006 Author Share Posted April 21, 2006 Improved your estimation???? My estimation of Ngata before having read the article wasn't particularly high. I still would rather have the Bills draft someone else, but now I'd be less unhappy if they took Ngata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 21, 2006 Author Share Posted April 21, 2006 yeah- that Vic is a top rate talent evaluator. Vic just puts a spin on what people tell him- more likely you like Vic's opinion because he used to write atrticles about the Bills- Not sure how you know where Vic's opinions come from or don't come from. Is this something you thought of yourself, or are you just putting a spin on what other people tell you? As for why I like Vic's opinion, it's because I remember him from when he used to write for Shout! His columns were the ones I looked forward to the most, and what he wrote usually made a lot more sense than most things you'd see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBilliever Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 He reps 550. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted April 23, 2006 Author Share Posted April 23, 2006 He reps 550. Nuff said. 666984[/snapback] He could have a competition with Monte Brown, Leif Larson, and Mike Williams to see who could bench the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 He reps 550. Nuff said. 666984[/snapback] Why do we want a guy who represents WGR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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