Orton's Arm Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 You're hitting crusade territory. Already you've hit upon a page worth of criticisms. Can't you let your 'work' thus far speak for itself? 639163[/snapback] Not sure why you picked the Palmer post to make your "crusade territory" remark. That post added solid information to the discussion. To me, a crusade is something where you offer the same opinion over and over again without bringing in new facts or new reasoning to support it. JDG hasn't done this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Now I'm not saying that JP has shown the poise in there that Roethlisberger has displayed, but what I am saying is that Mularkey called a safer game with Holcomb in there than he did with Losman. Perhaps that's an arm-strength thing, and MM felt he could rely on JP's deep game more to the detriment of the run, but MM used the run to set up an efficient passing game from Holcomb. He didn't even try to do that with Losman. 639161[/snapback] I felt the same way about Flutie and Johnson: namely, that Flutie got the safer, more run-oriented game plan, while Johnson was asked to go pass-happy, and attempt a lot of deep throws that could result in sacks. I'm not saying this means Losman's the next RJ. You know, the more I read what Packers fans have to say about Nall, the more I'm beginning to like the signing. With none of the Bills' QBs knowing the Fairchild offense, it's the same starting line for all three guys. Hopefully one of the three will clearly outplay the other two, giving us an obvious answer to the QB question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 How can anyone say the play calling was better for Holcomb after that fake QB sneak, roll-out whatever passback option play to Willis who was supposed to throw the ball to Evans on a fly pattern from the 1 yard line. 639167[/snapback] That was one bad play among many. I didn't say I was giving MeatHead a pass on his Holcomb-centered play-calling. I'm just saying generally the attack was more balanced when he was in there. The Bills didn't win those games on Holcomb's arm alone, and Mularkey didn't force them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 That was one bad play among many. I didn't say I was giving MeatHead a pass on his Holcomb-centered play-calling. I'm just saying generally the attack was more balanced when he was in there. The Bills didn't win those games on Holcomb's arm alone, and Mularkey didn't force them to. 639208[/snapback] I know that but between that play and the mickey mouse end around , !@#$ and suck those plays stand out in my mind as why meathead was every allowed to coach in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 The way I read it, you think Losman will fail just because you think he will fail. Not a lot of substantive info in there, though it is true that Losman is inaccurate. Accuracy is great, it's a big part of why Tom Brady is so good, but there is more than one way to play QB. My take on Losman all along is that he has Donovan McNabb-type ability. He's athletic and a threat to run, has a strong arm and is very streaky. Accuracy is very important, but moving the chains and scoring TD's are what quarterbacking is all about. A guy like Kelly Holcomb will appear more efficient on paper than McNabb, posting better completion %, higher QB rating, even a higher yards per attempt, but many efficiency stats are actually padded by quarterbacking failures. IMO, Losman has the ability to replicate McNabb's success, and then possibly grow into a more accurate passer as he matures. It may come as a shock to some to compare Losman to McNabb, but only because you've HEARD of him. Losman has comparable skill. I'd rather have a Tom Brady type, but I do think Losman has a very good chance to be a star QB. 638493[/snapback] You make great points, but there are a couple of things imo that set McNabb apart from JP, and I am not even to go into the unfair realm of results. I for one never believed the "tale of the tape" on JP. He just doesn't seem as big as they list him, and McNabb is huge. The other is demeanor. McNabb is a cool professional, and has been since day 1. I agree, JP DOES have all the talent that he needs, but imo, he looks and acts like an a-hole. Please, I am NOT trying to offend any Bills fan by saying this! I just happen to be personally turned off by the hair flopping, high fiving act from a player who has proven absolutely nothing, and worse yet was handed the job for no reason. Also, I don't remember too many great quarterbacks coming into the NFL and acting like this. I am sure that there is a chance that JP could develop into a top quality qb, but for the reasons above, I am not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in SC Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 "rag arm"...I beg to differ. If there is one thing he does have it is a very strong arm. You don't teach that. You have it or you don't. I think the jury should still be out on the guy. I don't think he has shown he is good. I don't think he has shown he is bad. Let's get an offensive line and a tight end into the mix and see what he has. Holcomb doesn't have the arm, nor is he that good a quarterback. Last year ws a rookie year because of JP Losman's injury. We'll see what we need to see in the first half of this year...assuming we get the offensive line fixed. If we don't fix the offensive line, we might as well have Joe Montana or Billy Joe Holbert in there...same result. 638750[/snapback] Perhaps, we have a different definition of "rag arm." I have never questioned his arm strength. What I was refering to was passing accuracy. Because of footwork or lack of sonething) he was much less successful at hitting open targets than Holcomb, our "journeyman backup QB." That is not a good sign - what good is arm strength without accuracy? I hope this was just "rookie NFL adjustment"- but I'm not so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneonta Buffalo Fan Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Right now we have no idea who is going to be our qb next season. But the way I see it is that Nall could be the starter, because not only does he have more experience than JP but he played behind Farve. And we all know how great of a Qb Farve is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioAquatic Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Greetings- sidenote re: comparisons of JP vs McNabb: I have a crystal clear memory of the Sports page of the Philadelphia Inquirer (DM's rookie year?) brutally demanding that McNabb be fired, along with the staff responsible for signing him.......and I mean brutal. If I had to sum up JP's play last year, I would say he was simply overwhelmed. Bonus points for athleticism and heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 In essence we will give JP, KH and Nall the chance to win the job discussion closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Right now we have no idea who is going to be our qb next season. But the way I see it is that Nall could be the starter, because not only does he have more experience than JP but he played behind Farve. And we all know how great of a Qb Farve is. 639688[/snapback] Nall has been in the league longer then JP, But JP has more time on the field then Nall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 The other is demeanor. McNabb is a cool professional, and has been since day 1. I agree, JP DOES have all the talent that he needs, but imo, he looks and acts like an a-hole. Please, I am NOT trying to offend any Bills fan by saying this! I just happen to be personally turned off by the hair flopping, high fiving act from a player who has proven absolutely nothing, and worse yet was handed the job for no reason. Also, I don't remember too many great quarterbacks coming into the NFL and acting like this. I am sure that there is a chance that JP could develop into a top quality qb, but for the reasons above, I am not holding my breath. 639567[/snapback] I don't see where people have seen JP act like an @!@#$. I don't think I have ever heard or seen him do anything that would make me feel differently. I've seen him excited after a win, but usually notes he still has stuff to work on or could have played better. I have also seen a very humble guy when talking after a loss, usually accepting responsiblity for a loss weither he deserves it or not. I'd rather see a kid on the field get excited and slapping high fives with his team after a good play then someone who shows no emotion at all. As for dogging him for being handed the starting job, I don't think he had control over that. Its not like he walked up to TD and MM and demanded Drew be released and he be given the starting job. I'm sure anyone in that position would not turn it done if given that opportunity (and not just to be a starting NFL QB but in their current job if handed a promotion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I don't see where people have seen JP act like an @!@#$. I don't think I have ever heard or seen him do anything that would make me feel differently. I've seen him excited after a win, but usually notes he still has stuff to work on or could have played better. I have also seen a very humble guy when talking after a loss, usually accepting responsiblity for a loss weither he deserves it or not. I'd rather see a kid on the field get excited and slapping high fives with his team after a good play then someone who shows no emotion at all. As for dogging him for being handed the starting job, I don't think he had control over that. Its not like he walked up to TD and MM and demanded Drew be released and he be given the starting job. I'm sure anyone in that position would not turn it done if given that opportunity (and not just to be a starting NFL QB but in their current job if handed a promotion) 639928[/snapback] JP should look and act like the team leader he is supposed to be. Instead he looks and acts like a surfer bum. Once he proves himself, he earns the right to do what he wants. But right now, he needs to earn the respect of his teammates and should do everything (no matter how seemingly trivial) to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobblehead Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 acts like a surfer bum. 640084[/snapback] Please elaborate. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Please elaborate. Thanks. 640087[/snapback] He read in paper good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 JP should look and act like the team leader he is supposed to be. Instead he looks and acts like a surfer bum. Once he proves himself, he earns the right to do what he wants. But right now, he needs to earn the respect of his teammates and should do everything (no matter how seemingly trivial) to do just that. 640084[/snapback] Really, are you sure your not thinking about RJ? I don't think I have ever heard JP mention surfing at all? So he should sit on the bench by himself and star balnkly at the field showing no emotion cause he has not proved himself yet? So when he reaches 1500 yards passing he can clap after making a big play? @ 2000 yards he can give a high five? @ 3000 yards can he congratulate other players? He was put in a bad situation even he admitted was bad for winning the respect of his teammates by just being handed a job he did not win. But thats his fault I guess. If there is one thing JP has shown, is that he is not as full of himself as people said he was in college and that he was put into a situation where it is even harder to earn the respect of his teammates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stussy109 Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 JP should look and act like the team leader he is supposed to be. Instead he looks and acts like a surfer bum. Once he proves himself, he earns the right to do what he wants. But right now, he needs to earn the respect of his teammates and should do everything (no matter how seemingly trivial) to do just that. 640084[/snapback] So getting a crew cut, and wearing a collared shirt makes him a better QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Interesting that poor offensive line play didn't find its way into your description of why Holcomb went short as often as he did. If I'm playing behind that line, my expectations for how much time I'll have are quite low. A short gain is better than an incompletion or a sack, and the line just didn't give much time for things to open up deep. Could the Bills have used improvement at the safety valve? Absolutely. But having been dealt the same hand as Losman, Holcomb was able to take advantage of the safety valve options that did exist. Elsewhere I've shown the offense produced an average of seven more points per game under Holcomb than it did during Losman's second stint. So Holcomb's passes weren't as unproductive as all that. If we wanted a QB who could play well when given a good offensive line, strong running game, good playcalling, etc., then we should have stuck with Bledsoe. 639141[/snapback] The problem is you actually think Holcomb was so much better for the Bills than JP. If you give JP an F then Holcomb is no better than a D. Yes, Holcomb went short because of the OLine play. He had as much time to throw as JP. So what? Fact is, the offense overall was only slightly better than JP. Perhaps Holcomb had better accuracy numbers because he OPTED to throw the unproductive short pass rather than make the "right" but more difficult pass. Holcomb did not "take advantage" of the short game because IT WASN'T WORKING!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 QUOTE(RuntheDamnBall @ Mar 22 2006, 02:47 PM) You're hitting crusade territory. Already you've hit upon a page worth of criticisms. Can't you let your 'work' thus far speak for itself? Not sure why you picked the Palmer post to make your "crusade territory" remark. That post added solid information to the discussion. To me, a crusade is something where you offer the same opinion over and over again without bringing in new facts or new reasoning to support it. JDG hasn't done this. 639182[/snapback] Thanks , Holcomb's Arm..... I'm apparently hitting "crusade territory" because of all the other posts I have made comparing Losman's first four games with Palmer's first five games..... JDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDG Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 The problem is you actually think Holcomb was so much better for the Bills than JP. If you give JP an F then Holcomb is no better than a D. Yes, Holcomb went short because of the OLine play. He had as much time to throw as JP. So what? Fact is, the offense overall was only slightly better than JP. Perhaps Holcomb had better accuracy numbers because he OPTED to throw the unproductive short pass rather than make the "right" but more difficult pass. Holcomb did not "take advantage" of the short game because IT WASN'T WORKING!!!! 640508[/snapback] I think you are doing two here - you are seriously understating how bad JP Losman was, particularly in his second through fourth games, and also not giving enough credit to Holcomb for just how effective a conservative passing style can be (particularly for a defensive and special teams-oriented team.) For example, you state that Holcomb had better accuracy numbers because he opted to throw the unproductive short pass. There's no doubt that Holcomb had better accuracy numbers - Holcomb's worst accuracy day in a full game in 2005 was 60.6% @New England. JP Losman only topped Holcomb's worst day just once, with 60.7% against the worst team in football, and Losman was at or below 50% a whopping five times in nine games. But the astonishing thing is that Losman's passes weren't all that more productive than Holcomb's either. Holcomb's worst yardage day in a full game was 159 yards @Oakland. Losman, however, failed to top that mark on 4 out of 9 occasions. Indeed, he *twice* failed to match even *one half* of Holcomb's worst day! Additionally, in JP Losman's 9 games the Bills average 12.3 points per game. In Kelly Holcomb's 7 games the Bills averaged more than *twice* that amount with 24.8 points per game.* So, who was *really* making the unproductive passes? JDG * - I didn't have time to normalize for defensive and special teams scores, but I find it hard to believe that they could significantly neutralize that gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Thanks , Holcomb's Arm..... I'm apparently hitting "crusade territory" because of all the other posts I have made comparing Losman's first four games with Palmer's first five games..... JDG 640554[/snapback] Okay, you are close to crusade territory for just consistantly rambling on the same point for different threads. Also, For what its worth, you are more or less in this thread just overkilling your point. I mean total thread hijack. You have stated your point, backed it up, and repeated it 25 times(not a real count) in this thread. IMO, just let people express their views but jump at every single post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts