I think I smell something burning....

[RkFast]

Are you kidding? Osama is laughing his beard off!  9/11 did more than just destroy a couple of buildings.

 

PTR

621729[/snapback]

 

A-!@#$ing-men to that.

 

The whole world has turned on us and hates us. We turned on each other and hate ourselves. And the entire Muslim world has galvanized and risen up in hatred of the West and the U.S.

 

At face value, ole Osama has WON.

[Mickey]

"unreasonable"  is the key word in the 4th Mickey.  I think it’s reasonable to listen in on incoming foreign originated telephone conversations since foreigners are not covered by the fourth

621620[/snapback]

 

 

The specifics of one search or another is not really the issue. Whether a given search is reasonable or not isn't, nor should it be, the focus of the debate. It smacks of an outcome determinative standard, ie, the ends justify the means. The question with regard to warrants and reasonableness is who makes that determination? Under the administration's view, the executive does without any meaningful judicial review. Thus what is or is not reasonable, what does and does not require a warrant becomes subject to the whims of one man.

 

If that is "constitutional" then "constitutional" means nothing.

 

As for the specifics of a search, how do you know they are only listening to calls from foreigners to US Citizens? How do you know that they aren't listening to calls to John Q Uscitizen from his cousin Pierre Frenchcitizen about an upcoming family reunion? Because they say they aren't? Is that what passes for safeguarding constitutional rights, a politician's promise not to abuse them?

 

I don't get the idea of defending a program which, on its face is more than arguably illegal without even so much as a whiff of an investigation to see what in the world is actually going on. It reminds me of the old Lets Make a Deal: Tell you what Monty, I'll defend the administration policy behind curtain number 2 though I don't even know what it is using the one-defense-fits-all-excuse: TERRORISTS.

 

What is that old saw about nothing to fear but fear itself?

[Mickey]

Liberals make me laugh.  Piss and moan about the 4th Amendment when your clowns have been raping the 2nd for YEARS.

621702[/snapback]

Yeah, owning a gun is soooooo difficult now-a-days. You conservatives make me laugh, just when I think there is a part of the Constitution they have read beyond the 2nd, they prove me wrong.

 

Well, I guess as long as they aren't bugging gun dealers its okay.

[Mickey]

A-!@#$ing-men to that.

 

The whole world has turned on us and hates us. We turned on each other and hate ourselves. And the entire Muslim world has galvanized and risen up in hatred of the West and the U.S.

 

At face value, ole Osama has WON.

621924[/snapback]

A big huzzah for the wonderful job the Bush regime has done. Outstanding.

[GG]

A big huzzah for the wonderful job the Bush regime has done.  Outstanding.

622078[/snapback]

 

And this is where I go hysterical again.

 

How do you think that the Congressional opposition to DP is playing out in Mid East & other muslim countries? Would you consider that this is right up the alley for the anti-western views that are gathering support - that the imperial US is only interested in occupying the Mid East, and has absolutely no intentions of dealing on a fair basis with Arab nations, even the ones who are US allies?

 

Always an interesting read of the issues in the Mid East news source of record. Note the comments below the articles.

 

But in the end, it is all Bush.

[Ghost of BiB]

And this is where I go hysterical again.

 

How do you think that the Congressional opposition to DP is playing out in Mid East & other muslim countries?  Would you consider that this is right up the alley for the anti-western views that are gathering support - that the imperial US is only interested in occupying the Mid East, and has absolutely no intentions of dealing on a fair basis with Arab nations, even the ones who are US allies?

 

Always an interesting read of the issues in the Mid East news source of record.  Note the comments below the articles.

 

But in the end, it is all Bush.

622139[/snapback]

 

You need to find a softer wall. Beating your head against this one isn't going to do much good. People are making emotional responses here, and at other levels. It's not about reason. Oddly enough, some of these people consider themselves pragmatists.

[Mickey]

And this is where I go hysterical again.

 

How do you think that the Congressional opposition to DP is playing out in Mid East & other muslim countries?  Would you consider that this is right up the alley for the anti-western views that are gathering support - that the imperial US is only interested in occupying the Mid East, and has absolutely no intentions of dealing on a fair basis with Arab nations, even the ones who are US allies?

 

Always an interesting read of the issues in the Mid East news source of record.  Note the comments below the articles.

 

But in the end, it is all Bush.

622139[/snapback]

The port thing came up like last week or something. The failures RK was listing are a lot older than that. Unless the port thing is so bad it is powerful enough to create a warp in the space time continuum, reverse time and destroy our image in Europe, the middle east and elsewhere 3 years ago, then it hasn't done anything besides make the situation worse.

 

Is the ports fiasco what caused Abu Ghraib?

Is the ports fiasco what casued Bush to announce a crusade?

Is the ports fiasco responsible for the WMD shim-sham?

Is the ports fiasco responsible for failing to end the insugency/civil war/daily blood bath in Iraq?

 

I don't know if you think the Bush foreign policy has been a smashing success, an abject failure or something in between but whatever it is, it is not the fault of the port deal or, as it now appears, undeal.

[Mickey]

You need to find a softer wall. Beating your head against this one isn't going to do much good. People are making emotional responses here, and at other levels. It's not about reason. Oddly enough, some of these people consider themselves pragmatists.

622143[/snapback]

I beleive you owe me a beer bib.

 

My prediction on the port deal:

 

"It is as dead as my dream to one day become a judge....of the Miss Porn USA pageant. Seriously, I haven't the foggiest idea as to what economic and security issues are at stake here. Politically though, if you have Charles Schumer and Bill Frist both against it and a lame duck Prez who is getting lamer by the second, where else can this possibly go but into the "nevermind" bin? The administration has bigger fish to fry so they are not going to hitch their wagons to this lead balloon."

 

Your prediction:

 

"I say the "deal" goes through."

 

 

Instead of a beer I'll take a year's subscription to Smithsonian.

Care to hear my prediction on today's SU-Uconn game?

[Ghost of BiB]

I beleive you owe me a beer bib.

 

My prediction on the port deal:

 

"It is as dead as my dream to one day become a judge....of the Miss Porn USA pageant. Seriously, I haven't the foggiest idea as to what economic and security issues are at stake here. Politically though, if you have Charles Schumer and Bill Frist both against it and a lame duck Prez who is getting lamer by the second, where else can this possibly go but into the "nevermind" bin? The administration has bigger fish to fry so they are not going to hitch their wagons to this lead balloon."

 

Your prediction:

 

"I say the "deal" goes through."

Instead of a beer I'll take a year's subscription to Smithsonian.

Care to hear my prediction on today's SU-Uconn game?

622373[/snapback]

 

It ain't over yet...but, I was banking on somebody in Congress having a rational mind. Silly me.

[VABills]

I beleive you owe me a beer bib.

 

My prediction on the port deal:

 

"It is as dead as my dream to one day become a judge....of the Miss Porn USA pageant. Seriously, I haven't the foggiest idea as to what economic and security issues are at stake here. Politically though, if you have Charles Schumer and Bill Frist both against it and a lame duck Prez who is getting lamer by the second, where else can this possibly go but into the "nevermind" bin? The administration has bigger fish to fry so they are not going to hitch their wagons to this lead balloon."

 

Your prediction:

 

"I say the "deal" goes through."

Instead of a beer I'll take a year's subscription to Smithsonian.

Care to hear my prediction on today's SU-Uconn game?

622373[/snapback]

It ain't over.

 

Also I believe the deal goes through, as the company already said they are buying the british company regardless. The 6 port contract will just have to be sold out from the parent company, but you owe him a beer, because the deal did go through.

[KRC]

I beleive you owe me a beer bib.

 

My prediction on the port deal:

 

"It is as dead as my dream to one day become a judge....of the Miss Porn USA pageant. Seriously, I haven't the foggiest idea as to what economic and security issues are at stake here. Politically though, if you have Charles Schumer and Bill Frist both against it and a lame duck Prez who is getting lamer by the second, where else can this possibly go but into the "nevermind" bin? The administration has bigger fish to fry so they are not going to hitch their wagons to this lead balloon."

 

Your prediction:

 

"I say the "deal" goes through."

Instead of a beer I'll take a year's subscription to Smithsonian.

Care to hear my prediction on today's SU-Uconn game?

622373[/snapback]

 

Is this another one of those RCow exit poll thingies? We all remember how that turned out.

[GG]

I don't know if you think the Bush foreign policy has been a smashing success, an abject failure or something in between but whatever it is, it is not the fault of the port deal or, as it now appears, undeal.

622358[/snapback]

 

There is a big difference in whether I think that the foreign policy has been a success vs the general public accounting of the foreign policy being successful. We should know for sure in 20 years.

 

As to the other factors doing in American image, my point was that the potr deal would have at least stemmed the American imperialist stereotype. Guess not.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

It ain't over. 

 

Also I believe the deal goes through, as the company already said they are buying the british company regardless.  The 6 port contract will just have to be sold out from the parent company, but you owe him a beer, because the deal did go through.

622377[/snapback]

It's is over but for the crying, too many GOPers on the Bush bash bandwagon. Not that I agree, just that when it gets this far it is going to take one heckuva Hail Mary to make it happen.

 

Maybe a partial deal or some more give from Dubai, but it is not looking good, 3rd quarter down by 30points and Frank Reich is not your quarterback!

[Ghost of BiB]

Eh, have to give this round to Mickey. As I said, I placed my faith in the idea that Congress might be able to operate without self serving short sightedness.

 

If anything good comes out of this at least in our little world, maybe this was a wakeup call to a few that things are NOT usually what they appear to be. A soundbite doesn't carry the same level as waiting for facts and knowledge and this was a real easy example to demonstrate that. Most everyone here, at least posting is more or less in general agreement over the real issues. Anyone going to remember that for the next one?

 

Write your Congress Critter. This escapade has done a lot to seriously harm ANY inroads we might have had in adjusting any attitudes in that region.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

Eh, have to give this round to Mickey. As I said, I placed my faith in the idea that Congress might be able to operate without self serving short sightedness.

 

If anything good comes out of this at least in our little world, maybe this was a wakeup call to a few that things are NOT usually what they appear to be. A soundbite doesn't carry the same level as waiting for facts and knowledge and this was a real easy example to demonstrate that. Most everyone here, at least posting is more or less in general agreement over the real issues. Anyone going to remember that for the next one?

 

Write your Congress Critter. This escapade has done a lot to seriously harm ANY inroads we might have had in adjusting any attitudes in that region.

622538[/snapback]

And then there was a Hail Mary, Senator John Warner. Still sounds like you lost your bet, but not sure if the details will create more fodder. Will have to wait and see?

[Ghost of BiB]

And then there was a Hail Mary, Senator John Warner.  Still sounds like you lost your bet, but not sure if the details will create more fodder.  Will have to wait and see?

622543[/snapback]

 

It doesn't matter now, the damage has been done. Americans are being shown "for what they are". Even if it's not true, nor the motivation for this.

 

Thank you for all your help, Mr and Ms Elected Representatives.

[ASCI]

A-!@#$ing-men to that.

 

The whole world has turned on us and hates us. We turned on each other and hate ourselves. And the entire Muslim world has galvanized and risen up in hatred of the West and the U.S.

 

At face value, ole Osama has WON.

621924[/snapback]

 

Whenever I hear this train of thought I liken it to the reaction of a teen-age girl who was not asked to the prom. I have been on this earth for quite a few years and can’t ever remember a time when America was popular with Europe and the Middle East

[Mickey]

Eh, have to give this round to Mickey. As I said, I placed my faith in the idea that Congress might be able to operate without self serving short sightedness.

 

If anything good comes out of this at least in our little world, maybe this was a wakeup call to a few that things are NOT usually what they appear to be. A soundbite doesn't carry the same level as waiting for facts and knowledge and this was a real easy example to demonstrate that. Most everyone here, at least posting is more or less in general agreement over the real issues. Anyone going to remember that for the next one?

 

Write your Congress Critter. This escapade has done a lot to seriously harm ANY inroads we might have had in adjusting any attitudes in that region.

622538[/snapback]

Congress is stupid, no doubt. But you have to give some razz to the administration, not like they handled it very well. That is, I think, the kind of thing you and CTM have been harping on right? Incompetent.

[Ghost of BiB]

Congress is stupid, no doubt.  But you have to give some razz to the administration, not like they handled it very well.  That is, I think, the kind of thing you and CTM have been harping on right?  Incompetent.

622873[/snapback]

 

When it comes to selling ideas, yeah - pretty much. I can also understand the other side, i.e. - the secrecy thing. If you're going to get blasted no matter what you do or say, say little. I think there's people within the administration that realize that the public is collectively ignorant by choice. When has anything happened in the last 20 years where there wasn't an outcry before anyone knew anything?

 

I still don't think this fits into that, though. I still think this was a fairly routine deal that never got surfaced up the chain as a potential political problem until it got mediaized by the Florida lawsuit, which BTW I think has nothing to do with security. Those guys sure fell off the radar fast, didn't they?

 

I'm still very, very disappointed in the whole thing. I'm not going to do the search, but it's probably safe to say that there is also Saudi majority ownership in some things that could be called sensitive. I keep hearing "critical infrastructure" tossed around. New buzz word. Does anyone know what critical infrastructure is much less read the critical infrastructure protection plan?

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

When it comes to selling ideas, yeah - pretty much. I can also understand the other side, i.e. - the secrecy thing. If you're going to get blasted no matter what you do or say, say little. I think there's people within the administration that realize that the public is collectively ignorant by choice. When has anything happened in the last 20 years where there wasn't an outcry before anyone knew anything?

 

622882[/snapback]

 

But that is the rub, this President's Administration has been systematically unwillingly to put the info out there and engage in a full-scale debate. Clinton did that regularly and managed to win or modify and compromise and still get his way, despite what the other side was saying.

 

This President and his minions are too stubborn to see that there are many ways to skin a cat. No matter how you do it, it will still taste like chicken, so give a little, as long as it gets you where you want.

 

But these, guys aren't able to, too lazy, or too arrogant and don't want to do the hard work to pull it off. It is more than just P.R., but having the intellect stamina and patience to outduel the otherside with a smile on your face, a sense of humor, while you can't stand who you are dealing with. That is what makes a good Politician.