Guest Guest Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 51 roster spots are wasted on actual players. All the league really needs is 32 kickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Trevor Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 And Vinatieri IS the kicker in NE, and they DO have two superbowl wins. Any attempts to lessen the role of a single player in those wins is nothing but sour grapes. You're okay with the other 52 players having rings, but Brady shouldn't have his? Your priorities: 1) anti-Brady fan 2) anti-Pats fan 3) Bills fan Funny how that is a common theme among Bledsoe's diehards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 And Vinatieri IS the kicker in NE, and they DO have two superbowl wins. Any attempts to lessen the role of a single player in those wins is nothing but sour grapes. You're okay with the other 52 players having rings, but Brady shouldn't have his? Your priorities: 1) anti-Brady fan 2) anti-Pats fan 3) Bills fan Funny how that is a common theme among Bledsoe's diehards. 31351[/snapback] It's always better to be a registered jackass like Foxboro Mike than an unregistered one. Try a little harder :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 And Vinatieri IS the kicker in NE, and they DO have two superbowl wins. Any attempts to lessen the role of a single player in those wins is nothing but sour grapes. You're okay with the other 52 players having rings, but Brady shouldn't have his? Your priorities: 1) anti-Brady fan 2) anti-Pats fan 3) Bills fan Funny how that is a common theme among Bledsoe's diehards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Haha that was hilarious. Welcome to the board Trevor. I do understand how AKC feels... I too have sour grapes towards Brady. Living in Boston, watching how the quarterback position should be played and watching how a true team leader makes those around him better also gave me sour grapes. However, I am willing to give credit where credit is due. The Pats don't win 14 in a row in the regular season and clich the top seed in the AFC with just a top-notch kicker. They did it in large part because of a QB who knows how to win games. And Vinatieri IS the kicker in NE, and they DO have two superbowl wins. Any attempts to lessen the role of a single player in those wins is nothing but sour grapes. You're okay with the other 52 players having rings, but Brady shouldn't have his? Your priorities: 1) anti-Brady fan 2) anti-Pats fan 3) Bills fan Funny how that is a common theme among Bledsoe's diehards. 31359[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Your correction is noted and accepted. My personal position on Beldsoe has always been that it's foolish to ignore the fact that he's one of the most productive QBs in history and one of today's most experienced at every level including the playoffs and two Super Bowls plus a Super Bowl ring. I find the suggestions that he's not capable of being the starting QB on a Super Bowl winner to be naive and void of the historical occasions of experienced QBs who have won their Super Bowls at the tail end of careers that were considered up to that point "disappointing". Elway and Plunkett stand out as particularly relevant examples- both facing a vocal majority of fans claiming they took too many sacks and couldn't win the big one yet finishing strong to cap off thier time in the league. Let's hope the system brought in by the Mularkey regime revitalizes the "old timer" running our offense to the benefit of the team. Last week was arguably a step in the right direction, and surely the impetus for some of the scumsucking trolls on this board to begin to try and minimize some of their past positions. 31339[/snapback] Well...Plunkett...O.K....but Elway?? All I remember hearing is the Broncos could never get Elway the help he needed on Offense, or Defense for that matter. When he got a running game, he won 2 SB's... But I really don't remember an outcry that Elway had lost it...And even if that was the case, I personally would never have thought that by watching the Guy play.... And while I admire your faith in a possible Bledsoe resurrection, instead I think the chances are he is among the vast majority of QB's who decline substantially in the later years of their careers. And his career Stats seem to back that decline theory, though it has been more slow and steady. Not that the Bills can't win with Bledsoe, but I just don't think he's one of these "exception to the rule" type of Players. He was a Great Young QB, but the NFL has gone through such an amazing change since Bledsoe came in from a speed standpoint, and even a Blitzing standpoint, that I just can't see Bledsoe ever being a Franchise-type QB again. If the Bills D stay VERY good, they can win with Bledsoe, but I no longer believe he's a difference maker with the Game on the line like he was when he was a Kid... JMO B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 And Vinatieri IS the kicker in NE, and they DO have two superbowl wins. Any attempts to lessen the role of a single player in those wins is nothing but sour grapes. You're okay with the other 52 players having rings, but Brady shouldn't have his? Your priorities: 1) anti-Brady fan 2) anti-Pats fan 3) Bills fan Funny how that is a common theme among Bledsoe's diehards. 31359[/snapback] 1) I couldn't give a stevestojan about Brady except for those coronating him as some type of ageless talent at QB. The book on his has just begun, and as I've pointed out and had no credible refutation, if he'd had the quality of kicker we have right now his jersey would be anything but common around the country. 2) Surprisingly Pat's fans are worse guests here than Dolphins fans. Among Dolphin fans we've actually attracted a few who have become contributors to the better information available on TBD. On the other hand for at least the visible part the Pat's fan contributions have amounted to little more than granddstanding with a vacuum of actual football knowledge. Funny how not one of them, and to be fair I'll leave out T-Bone since he really would prefer to be a Bill's fan, was around before the Pats won the '01 Super Bowl. 3) Yes, I'm a Bill's fan and have been since they were first formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 Well...Plunkett...O.K....but Elway?? All I remember hearing is the Broncos could never get Elway the help he needed on Offense, or Defense for that matter. When he got a running game, he won 2 SB's... But I really don't remember an outcry that Elway had lost it...And even if that was the case, I personally would never have thought that by watching the Guy play.... And while I admire your faith in a possible Bledsoe resurrection, instead I think the chances are he is among the vast majority of QB's who decline substantially in the later years of their careers. And his career Stats seem to back that decline theory, though it has been more slow and steady. Not that the Bills can't win with Bledsoe, but I just don't think he's one of these "exception to the rule" type of Players. He was a Great Young QB, but the NFL has gone through such an amazing change since Bledsoe came in from a speed standpoint, and even a Blitzing standpoint, that I just can't see Bledsoe ever being a Franchise-type QB again. If the Bills D stay VERY good, they can win with Bledsoe, but I no longer believe he's a difference maker with the Game on the line like he was when he was a Kid... JMO B) 31403[/snapback] One of my best friends lived in Denver during the Elway years and I spent enough time there to witness the fan reaction to the first 3 Super Bowl losses. Elway was amassing the still-standing record of most sacked QB in history and 10% of the fan base and the most critical of their sports media used phrases like "has no pocket presence"- "can't get rid of the ball fast enough"- "one-dimensional" and other familiar little sayings that QBs have hung on them when their team is performing poorly. 10% of fans in Denver and that part of the media that had picked him as the target of keeping their own careers on track were actually screaming for his replacement right up until his first ring. Most football autorities agree that it was only when Elway accepted the fact that he was NOT the "difference-maker" that he'd been touted as all his career that he became a Super Bowl winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 No credible refutation. Your prose is magnificent, I must say! Here's your credible refutation: YOU CANNOT MAKE THAT ARGUMENT! This is a team game, AKC and I have to say that you're stretching here a bit. One can make similar arguments about any great athlete in a team sports, aside from maybe Michael Jordan. If Elway didn't have Terrell Davis, he would have no Super Bowl Rings. So what??? If Jim Kelly didn't have Andre Reed, he would not have reached the Super Bowl 4 straight times. Your point being... If Kurt Warner didn't have Bruce and Holt, he'd still be stocking grocery shelves. Umm.. but he did. The point is, it does not matter. We judge athletes in a team sports based on what they had and how they made the most of it. If Brady didn't have a good kicker, how the hell do you know what would have happened? You don't have that luxury of hindsight to be able to play that scenario out!!!! It takes a great QB to even get "in" field goal range in such pressure situation. Look, though it may seem like it, I'm not here to bend over for Tom Brady. I'm just saying I know a good QB when I see one. Tom Brady is better than Bledsoe will ever be or ever was. Now I'm going to move on and keep rooting for Drew because I'm a Bills fan. and as I've pointed out and had no credible refutation, if he'd had the quality of kicker we have right now his jersey would be anything but common around the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 My personal position on Beldsoe has always been that it's foolish to ignore the fact that he's one of the most productive QBs in history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 One of my best friends lived in Denver during the Elway years and I spent enough time there to witness the fan reaction to the first 3 Super Bowl losses. Elway was amassing the still-standing record of most sacked QB in history and 10% of the fan base and the most critical of their sports media used phrases like "has no pocket presence"- "can't get rid of the ball fast enough"- "one-dimensional" and other familiar little sayings that QBs have hung on them when their team is performing poorly. 10% of fans in Denver and that part of the media that had picked him as the target of keeping their own careers on track were actually screaming for his replacement right up until his first ring. Most football autorities agree that it was only when Elway accepted the fact that he was NOT the "difference-maker" that he'd been touted as all his career that he became a Super Bowl winner. 31417[/snapback] Look...I'm not saying Elway did not have his detractors, I'm just saying those "Football Authorities" you speak of were idiots... I know Elway had his faults, but that guy was awesome. And when they put the Team around him he was even better...I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but personally Elway is right behind Jim Kelly in my book as the best QB of all time. And I just tend to ignore the detractors in his case, and in Kelly's case for that matter, cause I think those people were nuts... No offense meant though, I hear where you are coming from... B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 My thoughts exactly. Jonnie Unitas was one of the most productive QBs in history too. Let's bring him in for a tryout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 No credible refutation. Your prose is magnificent, I must say! If Elway didn't have Terrell Davis, he would have no Super Bowl Rings. So what??? If Jim Kelly didn't have Andre Reed, he would not have reached the Super Bowl 4 straight times. Your point being... If Kurt Warner didn't have Bruce and Holt, he'd still be stocking grocery shelves. Your making imperfect analogies versus looking at the record I've isolated- the big kick by Vinatieri, a 48 yarder, won the game to win the Pat's first Super Bowl. You're proposing subjectivity where I've provided objectivity. In SB33 Terrel Davis didn't score a single touchdown. It's fair to conclude that there were any number of backs who might have complemented Elway, especially considering the continued success of Shanahan's rushing ofenses since, but just ont he subjective side of Elway/Davis I don't think a guy who didn't contribute a single point to his team at the RB spot means he's a must have player. Unles Reed made the the winning catch in each one of the big games he doesn't fit the model. Warner without Bruce and Holt? Since Bruce had the game-winning touchdown in their SB win you have one perfectly objective example and I agree- Bruce was instrumental to the Super Bowl win. The difference with Vinatieri is that Brady isn't passing him the ball, he's stepping up all alone after his QB fails to move the offense over the goal line. And he's the best in the league, IMO, with everything on the line. He's proven it and deserves the accolades fans throw on Brady, a guy who is riding on Vinatieri's coattails but sucking up all the credit. And I'm relvied that you won't be bending over for Tom Brady, there's been WAY too much of that by Pat's fans over the past few years ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 While I agree that Lindell is no great shakes, if you want to hold him to a standard it'd probably be more fair to pick someone other than the greatest clutch kicker I've ever seen;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 31432[/snapback] This might help you- Most Productive QBs in NFL History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 While I agree that Lindell is no great shakes, if you want to hold him to a standard it'd probably be more fair to pick someone other than the greatest clutch kicker I've ever seen;-) 31461[/snapback] That's true, but not the premise of my original question. I'm pointing out that this "clucth" kicker has had to bail out the new wunderkid in all the biggest games he's played in, while the wunderkid has hardly stellar records in the same crunch time of those big games. In fact in the 4th quarter of big games INTs and fumbles are more common for Brady than TDs. But how 'bout that Pat's kicker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood Donahoe Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 This might help you-Most Productive QBs in NFL History 31477[/snapback] I think you accidentally posted the wrong link there. That one takes me to a list of the QBs with the most passing yards of all time. I see no mention of productivity. Post again if you can find a link to the most productive QBs of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cåblelady Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Leave Rian alone.....ya big meanie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I think you accidentally posted the wrong link there. That one takes me to a list of the QBs with the most passing yards of all time. I see no mention of productivity. Post again if you can find a link to the most productive QBs of all time. 31484[/snapback] Why? You don't think Vinny & David Krieg belong among the top 10 most productive QBs of all time??? I think Drew is better than either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 The difference with Vinatieri is that Brady isn't passing him the ball, he's stepping up all alone after his QB fails to move the offense over the goal line. And he's the best in the league, IMO, with everything on the line. He's proven it and deserves the accolades fans throw on Brady, a guy who is riding on Vinatieri's coattails but sucking up all the credit. This is where your premise falls flat on it's face. Brady didn't fail "to move the offense over the goal line", he got them in FG range in situations where a FG wins the game. In 2001 he drove them for 3 first downs with only 90 seconds left. In 2003 he drove them for 3 first downs in only 64 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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