Secretariat

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

I have no desire to go back through 40 years of fields with 3 races each year and build some kind of chart for 120 races including new shooters and horses who ran all 3. I've watched these races for over thirty years and I know how things have gone. Secretariat had to beat fewer horses because he scared off the rest. His Belmont validated that fear. It was 20 lengths bettter than any race ever run at a mile and a half in history. It would not have mattered if there were nine fresh horses in that race that day. If anyone can't see that I don't know what more to say.

 

There is no graded stakes of any sort which requires a horse had run in a prescribed previous race. The grading process looks at race history to determine its 1, 2, 3 or ungraded status. These grades are changed on a regular basis. With fields of 6 in the Preakness and 3 in the Belmont there would be no justification for these races remaining Grade 1 for long. The entire aura of the TC would disintegrate. I want to repeat that this is the stupidest idea I have ever heard. There are many, many reasons beyond the ones I have already mentioned.

 

I remember a horse that would be considered a fresh horse by the standards laid oout in this thread and by Coburn. I have linked the Youtube of his Belmont.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDuajNdfTek

 

He had not run in the Derby or the Preakness. So he was fresh, right? WRONG (that is a little throwback for some of the old timers). The Belmont was run on a Saturday. On Monday of that same week, Cielo had beaten older horses at one mile in the Grade 1 Met Mile. He was a 3 year old beating older horses and then running the Belmont 5 days later. This set up Conquistador Cielo as one of the most intriguing stallion prospects in history and paid the owner handsomely (FWIW he turned out to be just an above average sire). By Coburn's ridiculous new set of standards, he would have been inelgible for the Belmont because he would have been considered fresh and the owner would have forfeited his hadsome ROI.

 

That was actually a pretty interesting year. The Derby winner, Gato Del Sol sat out the Preakness because there was a heavy favorite by the name of Linkage. Linkage was defeated in the Preakness by a horse name Aloma's Ruler. Later in the year I attended the Travers which feature all 3 of the TC race winners. Guess who won? None of them. Races are individual and need to stay that way. The Triple Crown links these three races in an unoffical manner only. It comes off as one event due to the history and the hype. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it as much as the next guy, but officially making it one event would be a huge mistake.

 

You talk tradition, but have no desire going back 40 years or more? You want to start @ 30 when all the BS started. No cherry picking please.

 

You gotta be kidding that they were scared of Secretariat. They were all in the game. Nobody would have dreamed of putting a fresh horse in due to the backlash. It was a different era... More honor amongst the kings.

 

I don't think anybody is saying make it one event. At least to an extent, make it attainable like it used to be. Put the honor back into the loosely constructed trio or don't even offer a trophy for it. Right now it is completly unattainable... It has been that way for the last 35 years... Coincidence you have only been watching for the last 30? The BS started 35 years... Funny how Tonalist owner's daddy owned Pleasant Colony (1980) and was one of the first of 12 to get boned out of the Triple Crown. What's he embracing? The spoiler role to avenge his daddy.

 

You seen the buzz created by Cali Chrome... It is good for racing... Unfortunately, the sport is declining because owner's game the races for their own self interest. Gee, that's a shock.

 

That's all that I am saying. Why even have a Triple Crown @ all if all there are is spoilers and no honor among the kings. It is a sport of kings like you said. Time to tie up King John and sign the Magna Carta. The kings will still have power.

 

;-P

Edited June 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just imagine if Coburn comes out BEFORE the race as says that there are two track ringers, Tonalist & Commissioner in the race... That they have been practicing @ the track for a month prior to The Belmont Stakes. My God, how that would FUBAR things. This is a betting sport. The Exacta on a $2 bet paid $348 dollars. Wow.. Nice.

 

Of course Coburn's hoping he can over come the two and stick it in their faces. Should the race really be run like that?

 

Speaking of Secretariat... Back then who wants to foul up a legend. Yeah, some fresh horses may have been scared, scared of the backlash. In the last 35 years it is self-interest that has crept more in. Then there are the 3 Triple Crown winners in a decade (1970's). They swung the pendulum back except this time they swung it to impossible by wiping all honor out of the races. Secretariat, Seatlle Slew, & Affirmed had benefit of that honor. Now we see what a drought of 36 years brings to the sport where anything goes.

 

There are two ways to change. One is on your own accord, embracing change. The other is being forced to change against your will. I am afraid the sport is going the later way.

Edited June 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[OGTEleven]

You talk tradition, but have no desire going back 40 years or more? You want to start @ 30 when all the BS started. No cherry picking please.

 

You gotta be kidding that they were scared of Secretariat. They were all in the game. Nobody would have dreamed of putting a fresh horse in due to the backlash. It was a different era... More honor amongst the kings.

 

I don't think anybody is saying make it one event. At least to an extent, make it attainable like it used to be. Put the honor back into the loosely constructed trio or don't even offer a trophy for it. Right now it is completly unattainable... It has been that way for the last 35 years... Coincidence you have only been watching for the last 30? The BS started 35 years... Funny how Tonalist owner's daddy owned Pleasant Colony (1980) and was one of the first of 12 to get boned out of the Triple Crown. What's he embracing? The spoiler role to avenge his daddy.

 

You seen the buzz created by Cali Chrome... It is good for racing... Unfortunately, the sport is declining because owner's game the races for their own self interest. Gee, that's a shock.

 

That's all that I am saying. Why even have a Triple Crown @ all if all there are is spoilers and no honor among the kings. It is a sport of kings like you said. Time to tie up King John and sign the Magna Carta. The kings will still have power.

 

;-P

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I only go back 30 years because of the date of my birth (well, maybe a little more than 30 years as I am a bit older than I actually realize). I don't need to make charts and graphs because I have followed the sport and I understand it in detail. I also don't need to have charts to tell me Tony Gwynn was a good hitter because I followed his career. If you want to find out why you are wrong (well, one of the hundred reasons anyway) then you go and make the charts.

 

To suggest Evans is embracing some sort of spoiler role or is out for revenge is simply idiotic. I'd like to pick a softer word to use there (like naive, or uninformed) but those would be insufficient. Evans entered Tonalist simply because he was ready to contend in one of the most important races in the sport. You are upset because the owner of a horse acted in his own self interest? Other than the horse, whose interest was he supposed to act in? Someone who wants a watered down achievement? Then why not just name every year's Derby winner the Triple Crown winner because everyone wants it to happen? Maybe the entire NFL should lay down for the next two years so the Seahawks can have a threepeat.

 

As a point of clarification the original goal was to have Tonalist pointed toward the Derby but a sickness prevented that. Are people really arguing that the same sickness should have disqualified him from the Belmont?

 

And what was going on between 1948 and 1973? Was that chicanery too?

 

California Chrome is not a Triple Crown winner because he did not winn all three races. Period. It is not because of a conspiracy. It is not because someone cheated. It is because he lost the Belmont.

 

Good article

 

 

Before Chrome's loss and the subsequent rant, I had never heard anyone complain about new shooters in Triple Crown races. Ever. This includes the owners of Spectaular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Charismatic, Silver Charm, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Smarty Jones or Big Brown, all of whom lost to new shooters. It also includes owners of Alysheba, Sunday Silence, and Real Quiet who lost to old shooters. It also includes the winners of the Preakness and Belmont who lost the Derby or winners of the Derby and Belmont who lost the Preakness. But don't let that stand in the way of Chrome's owner wanting to change the entire landscape of the sport and call everyone a coward. Would a brave Evans have run a sick Tonalist in the Derby and risk the horse's life?

 

Another point of note is that if you lined up Spectacular Bid, Pleasant Colony, Charismatic, War Emblem, Funny Cide, Smarty Jones, Big Brown, Alysheba, Sunday Silence and Real Quiet in a strting gate, most of the ones who lost to the new shooters would be the long shots in the race. Certianly Funny Cide, Charismatic, War Emblem and Big Brown should be 20+-1 in that race. Spectacular Bid would probably be favored or close, Smarty Jones would be a contender and Pleasant Colony would be about 10-1. Spectacular Bid had an excuse in his Belmont (stepped on an industrial safety pin) as did Smarty Jones (poor ride by the jockey). Pleasant Colony lost to Summing not because he was a new shooter, but because he got away with a slow pace. Alysheba and Sunday Silence would be second and third choice with Real Quiet a fringe player. California Chrome? 15-1 if I'm being very generous.

 

The linked article, written just before the Belmont, references a lot factors about the dearth of TC winners. The writer spoke to a lot of people that know a thing or two. Not one of them mentioned new shooters. Why? Because the races are individual races and placing weird restrictions on them because of the hot pockets crowd would be a profound disservice to the sport.

 

Just imagine if Coburn comes out BEFORE the race as says that there are two track ringers, Tonalist & Commissioner in the race... That they have been practicing @ the track for a month prior to The Belmont Stakes. My God, how that would FUBAR things. This is a betting sport. The Exacta on a $2 bet paid $348 dollars. Wow.. Nice.

 

Of course Coburn's hoping he can over come the two and stick it in their faces. Should the race really be run like that?

 

Speaking of Secretariat... Back then who wants to foul up a legend. Yeah, some fresh horses may have been scared, scared of the backlash. In the last 35 years it is self-interest that has crept more in. Then there are the 3 Triple Crown winners in a decade (1970's). They swung the pendulum back except this time they swung it to impossible by wiping all honor out of the races. Secretariat, Seatlle Slew, & Affirmed had benefit of that honor. Now we see what a drought of 36 years brings to the sport where anything goes.

 

There are two ways to change. One is on your own accord, embracing change. The other is being forced to change against your will. I am afraid the sport is going the later way.

 

Please just stop. Coburn considered every horse except Ride on Curlin and General A Rod to be cowards. He wanted the TC handed to him. Sorry but no.

 

And really just stop with the fresh horse vs. Secretariat angle. No horse in history had come within 20 LENGTHS of that performance and no horse since (41 years) has come within 12. Old shooter, new shooter, or shot out of a cannon, every horse in the history of the world would have lost that day except one. Secretariat.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1948-1973 was only 25 years. How many attempts failed? We are going on 13 failed attempts in 36 years. Something different is going on.

 

And really just stop with the fresh horse vs. Secretariat angle. No horse in history had come within 20 LENGTHS of that performance and no horse since (41 years) has come within 12. Old shooter, new shooter, or shot out of a cannon, every horse in the history of the world would have lost that day except one. Secretariat.

 

No. Of course stick him in an 11 horse field and bash him around a little... And who knows how he handles it. Still shot out of a cannon? ?? I get the worship. In context of the day and the small field it was impressive. Like beating a kid in a wheelchair. ;-P

 

It is like comparing Detroit's 8 game run to The Cup vs. today's 16. Today's is that much harder, even for a Secretariat.

Edited June 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[BuffaloBillsForever]

1948-1973 was only 25 years. How many attempts failed? We are going on 13 failed attempts in 36 years. Something different is going on.

 

 

 

No. Of course stick him in an 11 horse field and bash him around a little... And who knows how he handles it. Still shot out of a cannon? ?? I get the worship. In context of the day and the small field it was impressive. Like beating a kid in a wheelchair. ;-P

 

It is like comparing Detroit's 8 game run to The Cup vs. today's 16. Today's is that much harder, even for a Secretariat.

 

You just didn't quote Coburns analogy did you? Worst analogy ever...

 

Baseball experts were claiming the triple crown was impossible leading up to 2012. Those type of arguments are silly.

Edited June 10, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

You just didn't quote Coburns analogy did you? Worst analogy ever...

 

LoL... ;-)

 

Making light of it. I am not for radical change, but there needs to be tweaking. They tweaked it througn the years. No way a horse can get "sick" and then practice all month on a track and come in fresh. That's not sportsmanship. That's like somebody working all year and then getting bumped on the work roster by higher seniority for one day... Like when the holiday gift if being rolled out. That's just plain being pimp. Tonalist & Commissioner were this year's pimps. 12 and running!

[OGTEleven]

1948-1973 was only 25 years. How many attempts failed? We are going on 13 failed attempts in 36 years. Something different is going on.

 

 

 

No. Of course stick him in an 11 horse field and bash him around a little... And who knows how he handles it. Still shot out of a cannon? ?? I get the worship. In context of the day and the small field it was impressive. Like beating a kid in a wheelchair. ;-P

 

It is like comparing Detroit's 8 game run to The Cup vs. today's 16. Today's is that much harder, even for a Secretariat.

 

Something different? Yes and no. The races are still being run as individual races. The notion of tying them together would have been as absurd, idiotic and abusive to the horses in 1949 as it is in 2014.

 

The biggest difference is that most years nowadays you see 20, or nearly 20, horses in the Derby. I am not aware of whether there was a limit lower than 20 in the past, but owners of horses who were not good enough limited themselves. With 20 horses in the Derby, the best horse wins a lot less frequently than it would in a more traditional 12 horse field. Math says that this makes a TC more difficult. If someone were to make an argument to limit the Derby to 14, I might think that was ok (I haven't thought about it that much). On the other hand, limiting an owner's ability to enter a horse in a specific race because he had not run in a previous specific race is self destructive to that race (in this case the Belmont) and to racing in general.

 

Your doubling down on the stupid comments about a fresh horse beating Secretariat are still wrong. And in fact sometimes owners won't enter certain races because they know they will be beaten. There was simply no one in 1973 that was going to beat Secretariat and no context other than what you saw on video is necessary.

 

Below is exhibit A of the evidence that sometimes owners wait for more winnable races. It is a rare and extreme example, but it is still valid.

 

 

LoL... ;-)

 

Making light of it. I am not for radical change, but there needs to be tweaking. They tweaked it througn the years. No way a horse can get "sick" and then practice all month on a track and come in fresh. That's not sportsmanship. That's like somebody working all year and then getting bumped on the work roster by higher seniority for one day... Like when the holiday gift if being rolled out. That's just plain being pimp. Tonalist & Commissioner were this year's pimps. 12 and running!

 

These are incredibly ignorant comments regarding the training, racing, and health of horses.

[ExiledInIllinois]

My son was "sick" for his math exam on a Friday. He got the whole weekend to study further. Took the test on Monday and aced it. I am shocked the teacher didn't catch on and start him @ 95%. Oh well, his gain... Little punk.

[millbank]

You talk tradition, but have no desire going back 40 years or more? You want to start @ 30 when all the BS started. No cherry picking please.

 

You gotta be kidding that they were scared of Secretariat. They were all in the game. Nobody would have dreamed of putting a fresh horse in due to the backlash. It was a different era... More honor amongst the kings.

 

I don't think anybody is saying make it one event. At least to an extent, make it attainable like it used to be. Put the honor back into the loosely constructed trio or don't even offer a trophy for it. Right now it is completly unattainable... It has been that way for the last 35 years... Coincidence you have only been watching for the last 30? The BS started 35 years... Funny how Tonalist owner's daddy owned Pleasant Colony (1980) and was one of the first of 12 to get boned out of the Triple Crown. What's he embracing? The spoiler role to avenge his daddy.

 

You seen the buzz created by Cali Chrome... It is good for racing... Unfortunately, the sport is declining because owner's game the races for their own self interest. Gee, that's a shock.

 

That's all that I am saying. Why even have a Triple Crown @ all if all there are is spoilers and no honor among the kings. It is a sport of kings like you said. Time to tie up King John and sign the Magna Carta. The kings will still have power.

 

;-P

 

Agree with you E, was a time while it was never a rule, there was a gentleman's agreement that each ran their horses in all three races. We do not live in a generation of honor these days, but one of the self far to often. Tonalist gets the skunk award for 2014 in my view

Edited June 10, 2014 by millbank

[ExiledInIllinois]

These are incredibly ignorant comments regarding the training, racing, and health of horses.

 

When confronted with change, hide bedind the saftey of the horses. That trumps all. I have to admit, it is lock tight.

[KD in CA]

When confronted with change, hide bedind the saftey of the horses. That trumps all. I have to admit, it is lock tight.

 

 

When you pull out nonsense that even a politician would be embarrassed to utter, I know you're just arguing for argument's sake.

 

Too bad you weren't able to work a "hope" reference in there too!

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

Agree with you E, was a time while it was never a rule, there was a gentleman's agreement that each ran their horses in all three races. We do not live in a generation of honor these days, but one of the self far to often

 

I agree. I am not saying Secretariat wasn't super... That he was. BUT when a super horse comes along, it seems now, everybody wants to take a pop @ him. Then, some will hide behind safety.

 

I think there is more disrespect now than in Secretariat's day. How can two horses train all month on a track and then show up? I get they are separate races and a Triple Crown Champion should beat all comers. The odds are just too staggering. It is killing the sport, good things the bettors don't catch on.

 

 

 

 

When you pull out nonsense that even a politician would be embarrassed to utter, I know you're just arguing for argument's sake.

 

Too bad you weren't able to work a "hope" reference in there too!

 

LoL... Never thought of it that way... Ooops...

 

Really, there needs to be change. It is obvious the deck is stacked.

[bbb]

I found out the answer to my own question. Things have changed many times before:

 

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/what-tradition-triple-crown-schedule-has-always-been-a-thing-of-change/

[KD in CA]

It is obvious the deck is stacked.

 

Against who? OGT already explained it pretty clearly -- these are 3 distinct races. Just because NBC can make more money pumping "Triple Crown" ads to a public with no attention span doesn't mean horse racing should create a set of convoluted rules for 3 specific races that are different from all the other races. Logically, this argument doesn't even make it into the starting gate.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I found out the answer to my own question. Things have changed many times before:

 

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/what-tradition-triple-crown-schedule-has-always-been-a-thing-of-change/

 

You are voice in the wilderness bbb!

 

Tonalist gets paid 7-1 to make Coburn holler, he's get paid to do the wild thing!

 

:-) LoL

 

 

 

Against who? OGT already explained it pretty clearly -- these are 3 distinct races. Just because NBC can make more money pumping "Triple Crown" ads to a public with no attention span doesn't mean horse racing should create a set of convoluted rules for 3 specific races that are different from all the other races. Logically, this argument doesn't even make it into the starting gate.

 

I get that. Stacked against a possible Triple Crown winner trying to get that trophy. Why have a trophy if it is now next to impossible to get.

 

What's going to happen if the racing community doesn't restore a little bit of honor and form back, there will be agents pushing for change and convoluted rules because the sport will be tanking with the audience and most importantly: The betting public. Do bettors ever catch on? Why risk it.

 

You seen the schism in auto racing and the prestige of the Indy take a hit...

[OGTEleven]

Agree with you E, was a time while it was never a rule, there was a gentleman's agreement that each ran their horses in all three races. We do not live in a generation of honor these days, but one of the self far to often. Tonalist gets the skunk award for 2014 in my view

 

That has simply not been true for a long time now. The explosion of the Kentucky Derby into a 20 horse bonanza eradicated anything resembling that.

 

When confronted with change, hide bedind the saftey of the horses. That trumps all. I have to admit, it is lock tight.

 

I have seen too many horses die on the track under the best of conditions to take the above seriously. I have come to the realization that you have been trolling for the second half of this thread. Congratulations on fooling me for a while.

 

I agree. I am not saying Secretariat wasn't super... That he was. BUT when a super horse comes along, it seems now, everybody wants to take a pop @ him. Then, some will hide behind safety.

 

I think there is more disrespect now than in Secretariat's day. How can two horses train all month on a track and then show up?

 

California Chrome is nothing close to a super horse. The rest of his career will make this obvious. He will be anywhere from decent with a few more wins in mid-tier stakes races (my guess) or competitive in the upper echelon for this year and next (I'd bet against that). Both Tonalist and Medal Count, along with the previously injured Honor Code, Shared Belief and possibly Cairo Prince and Constitution will probably prove superior.

 

As for horses training and then racing? That's is how it is done in everything from a maiden race to a Stakes race.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Then what they should probably do is leave the Derby, Preakness, & Belmont alone. Take the Trophy to three other parks/downs and race for it there. Split it off. Run the same distances, same time interval... And cap the fields. Market that as the Triple Crown. Heck they could even float venues each year by distance. Kind of what auto racing did with Indy/Cart schism. Tracks through the country (and Canada) would love the attention (and revenue).

 

This isn't trolling. It may be what people want to see. Start a new tradition and prestige even if it means downgrading the prestige of the old races.

[OGTEleven]

Then what they should probably do is leave the Derby, Preakness, & Belmont alone. Take the Trophy to three other parks/downs and race for it there. Split it off. Run the same distances, same time interval... And cap the fields. Market that as the Triple Crown. Heck they could even float venues each year by distance. Kind of what auto racing did with Indy/Cart schism. Tracks through the country (and Canada) would love the attention (and revenue).

 

This isn't trolling. It may be what people want to see. Start a new tradition and prestige even if it means downgrading the prestige of the old races.

 

I don't even understand what you wrote but keep in mind that there is no one governing body over horse racing. There is no "they" to do whatever it is that you are proposing. Other than that, I'm sure it is a great idea.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

I don't even understand what you wrote but keep in mind that there is no one governing body over horse racing. There is no "they" to do whatever it is that you are proposing. Other than that, I'm sure it is a great idea.

 

There are governing bodies in each state, right?

[KD in CA]

Then what they should probably do is leave the Derby, Preakness, & Belmont alone. Take the Trophy to three other parks/downs and race for it there. Split it off. Run the same distances, same time interval... And cap the fields. Market that as the Triple Crown. Heck they could even float venues each year by distance. Kind of what auto racing did with Indy/Cart schism. Tracks through the country (and Canada) would love the attention (and revenue).

 

This isn't trolling. It may be what people want to see. Start a new tradition and prestige even if it means downgrading the prestige of the old races.

 

So in summary, everyone gets a trophy/gets to cheer a meaningless "Triple Crown" winner every year. Maybe they can also hand out free Hot Pockets to go with the mint juleps.