It was very depressing to watch two QBs who throw the ball like that

[NorWideRight]

All I could think about last night, watching those two guys throw dart after dart, is how depressing it has been to look at the parade of QBs march through Buffalo over the past dozen years.

 

Kaepernick looks absolutely sick. He throws an unbelievable ball, with pinpoint accuracy. His pick was just an overthrow that sailed. That being the first game of his I've watched from start to finish, I am totally sold and understand completely why Harbaugh made the decision he did.

 

If Kaep stays healthy, the 49ers will be the team to beat for years to come. I'd take him over RGIII (even before his injury) straight up and hands down.

 

Flacco, meanwhile, showed what he can do with protection and some good receivers, and his ability to hit the deep throw is uncanny.

 

Please, Buddy/Doug, find us a QB.

 

Kapernick looks like Jim Kelly in his prime. I can't believe Kapernick is only a second year player, he plays like a polished veteran. All I can say is the Bills should fire their entire scouting department. From Buddy Nix all the way down to the secretary in the office. San Fran has Kapernick, the Bills are stuck with FitzTrajic.

[KOKBILLS]

Would be interested to see your rankings. I do like both of these guys, but would take Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Manning for a couple more years, a healthy Big Ben, probably Luck, a healthy RGIII and maybe Russell Wilson over both. Not sure about Eli, and there is probably someone else that I'm foolishly forgetting.

 

Well...I think if we're talking about the next ten years I'd rather have Kaepernick over a few of these older guys...But for one year that list is about right...I'd rather have both over Big Ben...That someone else you speak of may be Matt Ryan? And it's just my opinion...but I still like Cam Newton a lot...

 

No matter though...Compared to The Bills current situation Kaepernick and Flacco are Gods...

[Sisyphean Bills]

I agree Chan Gailey was exposed. I will have to disagree that the idea that getting by with an average QB and building your defense was exposed. In fact, the 49ers had a fantastic defense and top tier running game while their passing game didn't fare as well. These numbers fairly blatantly point out that there needs to be better play from the passing offense/QB or the Defense and that while Fitz didn't do as well as the Qbs in the Super Bowl and Wilson, he wasn't out of their ballpark.

 

I reiterate, there has to be better play from the QB or Defense. I disagree in your assertion that going the route of upgrading the defense first was the wrong decision. Of course, if you see that Ravens/49ers as having gone the route of upgrading the QB first before their defense, I'd appreciate you pointing that out to me. I am not incredibly well versed on their histories.

For starters, I wasn't saying that the defense couldn't be addressed "first". I'll get back to that.

 

Is there a reason you are trying to divert the point away from the fact that the NFL is becoming more and more an offensively-oriented, and particularly passing, league?

 

Obviously, there are different ways to build a team, and I never said otherwise. You choose to arbitrarily pick the two most recent Super Bowl teams, so let's start there. The core of the Ravens started 17 years ago and that team won a Super Bowl 12 years ago on the back of one of the greatest defensive units ever assembled. So, yes, their defensive core was built a generation ago and they have maintained a high level of play as evidenced by their annual playoff appearances. Players and coaches have come and gone on that defense, but Lewis and Reed have held it together. Joe Flacco, as everyone knows, was added much later than Ray Lewis. But, so !@#$ing what?

 

The Buddy Nix regime's history is one of 3 years. Admitting that the Ravens drafted Lewis and Ed Reed a football generation (or 2 or whatever) ago doesn't change the facts on the ground from 2009 onward. To be successful, you want to be thinking ahead of the curve, not always trying to catch up to it. You want to understand the trends in the current NFL to compete in the current game.

 

Why did the 49ers go from the doldrums to the Super Bowl so quickly under Jim Harbaugh? Was it because they loaded up on defensive talent before he got there? Was it because they drafted a great RB in Gore before Harbaugh got there? Not really, otherwise the guy before Harbaugh wouldn't have gotten fired. Harbaugh brought the team flexibility and creativity to mold a team around its talent. He got much more out of Alex Smith than his predecessors. He put Kaepernick on the field using a lot of concepts from the Nevada offense and let him play a game he was comfortable playing.

 

Let's compare apples to apples though. It's not fair to compare Buddy Nix record to sustained success like Ozzie Newsome, clearly. The best comparison points are the Seahawks and Redskins since they rebooted their entire organizations from top to bottom at the same time as the Bills. Both of those organizations spent considerable resources trying to address their QB situation. The premise that one cannot address QB and also address other areas of the team is clearly false -- both of the Seahawks and Redskins disprove this assumption of mutual exclusivity. By the way, besides both of those teams being significantly more aggressive in trying to fix the QB position, they made more roster moves overall and both of those teams made the playoffs this year.

 

But, let's get back to the 49ers. Jim Harbaugh and the 49ers did not start out by scrapping the defense and offense when they came in, but chose a different course of fitting the system to the players they had. He also proved far from gutless in his ability to change starting QBs mid-season and navigate his team to the Super Bowl. So, they didn't go the big purge route, but can one extend that as a plank to defend Nix's record in Buffalo? No. It is disingenuous when it comes to the QB position. Jim Harbaugh replaced the QB he inherited with a QB he took in his very first draft class. In other words, the current 49ers leadership definitely didn't focus on getting a RB to replace Frank Gore as their first order of business.

 

By the way, Nix hasn't really upgraded the defense. Under Jauron, the defense was the strength of the team. Now, after 3 years and 2 system changes, it is the weakness. So, while it is true that the defense could have been improved and maybe there was a plan, the plan was poorly executed.

 

The term "first" is selective and misleading. The GM's job is to upgrade the team. Again, why can teams like the Seahawks and Redskins start getting players on both sides of the ball, but the Bills focus on drafting for a 3-4 first? The defense was that the Bills couldn't know what they had on offense until Gailey saw it first hand on the field. Then, after a couple of games, it dawned on him what Perry Fewell had known months earlier -- Trent Edwards wasn't an NFL QB. The focus then shifted to the Fitzpatrick salvage project and flip-flopping on the defensive scheme. So what of that great plan? We start down the 3-4 road, turn into a hybrid defense because we never had the players, junk it and go to a 20 year old 4-3 scheme, and do next to nothing on the offensive side of the ball other than exchanging Spiller for Lynch and wringing the turnip Fitzpatrick in a pass-first offense. Oh, and the we'll build through the draft turns into signing Mario Williams to a monster free agent deal. While contemporaries are turning their franchises around, the Bills begin another rebuild with an entirely new coaching staff.

 

So, yes, there is more to the criticism of the great plan than simply not drafting a QB.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Well...I think if we're talking about the next ten years I'd rather have Kaepernick over a few of these older guys...But for one year that list is about right...I'd rather have both over Big Ben...That someone else you speak of may be Matt Ryan? And it's just my opinion...but I still like Cam Newton a lot...

 

No matter though...Compared to The Bills current situation Kaepernick and Flacco are Gods...

Right. I mean if that's our list and Flacco and Kaepernick are certain to be in the top 12-15 at worst, all of it looks like prime rib compared to our gruel.

 

By the way, Nix hasn't really upgraded the defense. Under Jauron, the defense was the strength of the team. Now, after 3 years and 2 system changes, it is the weakness. So, while it is true that the defense could have been improved and maybe there was a plan, the plan was poorly executed.

Oh, do I call a heaping load of BS on this one. Our run defense has always been pure garbage, and the Jauron bend-don't-break model got the Bills to 7-9 with regularity. Let's not pretend that this is some monumental improvement over 6-10, when at least Gailey figured out once how to beat the Patriots. The Jauron-Levy defense sucked, and it was just good enough to make you believe that it was capable of doing something until crunch time. It had no killer instinct and could not find pressure or a stop on the run when it needed these most. Jauron's defenses did feature better play from the defensive backs, but I'll attribute that to Jabari Greer (whom that same leadership let go), a healthier Terrence McGee in his prime, and an misguided over-investment on that phase of the game. They also had better LB talent in Poz, Crowell, Haggan and Mitchell, and Fletcher that first year. Not great by any means but a league-average group at least. Too bad they were always making tackles at the second level because these sh-- for brains thought that they could get by with weak and small D linemen (and let good ones go to succeed elsewhere).

 

Better defense, my azz.

[KOKBILLS]

 

So, yes, there is more to the criticism of the great plan than simply not drafting a QB.

 

Which only furthers the argument that Nix has no business being an NFL GM...The QB situation is only exhibit A...

[dave mcbride]

Right. I mean if that's our list and Flacco and Kaepernick are certain to be in the top 12-15 at worst, all of it looks like prime rib compared to our gruel.

 

 

Oh, do I call a heaping load of BS on this one. Our run defense has always been pure garbage, and the Jauron bend-don't-break model got the Bills to 7-9 with regularity. Let's not pretend that this is some monumental improvement over 6-10, when at least Gailey figured out once how to beat the Patriots. The Jauron-Levy defense sucked, and it was just good enough to make you believe that it was capable of doing something until crunch time. It had no killer instinct and could not find pressure or a stop on the run when it needed these most. Jauron's defenses did feature better play from the defensive backs, but I'll attribute that to Jabari Greer (whom that same leadership let go), a healthier Terrence McGee in his prime, and an misguided over-investment on that phase of the game. They also had better LB talent in Poz, Crowell, Haggan and Mitchell, and Fletcher that first year. Not great by any means but a league-average group at least. Too bad they were always making tackles at the second level because these sh-- for brains thought that they could get by with weak and small D linemen (and let good ones go to succeed elsewhere).

 

Better defense, my azz.

 

Under Jauron - 10th, 18th, 14th, and 16th in points allowed.

 

Under Gailey - 28th, 30th, and 26th in points allowed.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

kap and flacco both may have cannons but the reason they lost this game is because joe has something called touch. the first TD throw to boldin shows this and kaps long ball to vernon davis on the final drive shows he does not

 

You are very wrong.

 

Both quarterbacks did a great job of mastering their emotion/adrenaline and throwing outstanding touch passes, even early in the game. Neither QB had to warm up. Vernon Davis is getting a lot of criticism for not laying out for that ball or even bringing it in while in stride. And Kaep threw maybe two passes all game that were off target. Kaepernick has shown great touch since he took over the starting spot. Wow.

 

Flacco was not good yesterday, the out jump, or turn around and wait for it completions are a credit to his wide outs. Don't over react because his team won. Kaepernick has an absolute rifle on the other hand.

 

CS, you're a good poster and all but what game were you watching?

 

Flacco was brilliant yesterday and most pundits have elevated him to that exalted "elite status" as a result of his performance.

 

People see Boldin and Pita laying out for balls but those balls for the most part were also easily catchable and well-placed. Flacco put those throws where only his guys could touch them. Those were like the balls you caught as a kid laying out before falling into your swimming pool or into your mattress. Easy catches.

 

I'm still not all that impressed with either guy. They're both solid NFL starters but we've been bad at QB for so long that I think we have a tendency to overrate average guys in different uniforms

 

This is a very surreal thread.

 

Simon, you are one of our most knowledgeable posters.

 

You were not impressed by the quarterbacking yesterday?

 

That was one of the best quarterbacked Super Bowls ever.

 

I thought both QBs were brilliant.

 

Am I being delusional here?

[dave mcbride]

 

 

 

This is a very surreal thread.

 

Simon, you are one of our most knowledgeable posters.

 

You were not impressed by the quarterbacking yesterday?

 

That was one of the best quarterbacked Super Bowls ever.

 

I thought both QBs were brilliant.

 

Am I being delusional here?

Don't mind Simon. He dogged Kurt Warner mercilessly after the Steelers/Cardinals Super Bowl despite putting up a rating of 112.3.

Edited February 5, 2013 by dave mcbride

[RuntheDamnBall]

Under Jauron - 10th, 18th, 14th, and 16th in points allowed.

 

Under Gailey - 28th, 30th, and 26th in points allowed.

I get what you are saying, but I will take the defensive line we have here right now as a better building block than the DBs we had under Jauron. The answer is still better players over scheme. Jauron had better players for most of the rest of his defense but had a fundamentally flawed understanding of how to use his DL. Also, it would not have mattered if they were #1 on defense because the offense consistently found new depths of ineptitude.

[Malazan]

Let's compare apples to apples though. It's not fair to compare Buddy Nix record to sustained success like Ozzie Newsome, clearly. The best comparison points are the Seahawks and Redskins since they rebooted their entire organizations from top to bottom at the same time as the Bills. Both of those organizations spent considerable resources trying to address their QB situation. The premise that one cannot address QB and also address other areas of the team is clearly false -- both of the Seahawks and Redskins disprove this assumption of mutual exclusivity. By the way, besides both of those teams being significantly more aggressive in trying to fix the QB position, they made more roster moves overall and both of those teams made the playoffs this year.

 

Are you sure the Redskins are the team you want to use as an example? They were the number team 1 in rushing and the bottom third in passing.

 

I'm not saying Buddy shouldn't be criticized, but the idea that they were pinning everything on Fitzpatrick and it was a ludicrous idea that he could man the ship while they looked at other areas is sort of silly.

 

The defense would be a prime area of criticism, but the loud calls that Fitzpatrick was the worst idea in the history of sports and they were crazy for thinking it may not have been insane.

 

You seem to have hit on my point that criticism should be more thought out than "I don't like Ryan Fitzpatrick" so I'm glad we're in agreement there.

[dave mcbride]

I get what you are saying, but I will take the defensive line we have here right now as a better building block than the DBs we had under Jauron. The answer is still better players over scheme. Jauron had better players for most of the rest of his defense but had a fundamentally flawed understanding of how to use his DL. Also, it would not have mattered if they were #1 on defense because the offense consistently found new depths of ineptitude.

I'm no fan of Jauron, but I hated our scheme this year. It was laughably bad. This analysis was the icing on the cake: http://www.buffalone...ills-drive-1082 .

 

Whatever Jauron's flaws, he at least installed an NFL defense - with occasional deception and everything! (Remember "the creep" v. NE on Monday night? At least he tried something.)

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm no fan of Jauron, but I hated our scheme this year. It was laughably bad. This analysis was the icing on the cake: http://www.buffalone...ills-drive-1082 .

 

Whatever Jauron's flaws, he at least installed an NFL defense - with occasional deception and everything! (Remember "the creep" v. NE on Monday night? At least he tried something.)

You won't find me defending Dave Wannstedt or George Edwards for that matter. Both of those guys were in over their heads in the NFL of 2010-2012, for very different reasons.

 

Jauron tried something but he was easily outwitted by good coaches.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Jauron tried something but he was easily outwitted by good coaches.

 

Having (unfortunately) witnessed both Jauron and Wanny "plying their trade" with the Bills, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that Wanny wasn't one-tenth of the Defensive Coordinator that Dick Jauron was.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Having (unfortunately) witnessed both Jauron and Wanny "plying their trade" with the Bills, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that Wanny wasn't one-tenth of the Defensive Coordinator that Dick Jauron was.

10% of zero is still zero.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Are you sure the Redskins are the team you want to use as an example? They were the number team 1 in rushing and the bottom third in passing.

Is it your contention that the Redskins have not tried to address their QB position or that they did not make the playoffs? Any statements about the proficiency of their passing game are your own straw-men.

I'm not saying Buddy shouldn't be criticized, but the idea that they were pinning everything on Fitzpatrick and it was a ludicrous idea that he could man the ship while they looked at other areas is sort of silly.

 

The defense would be a prime area of criticism, but the loud calls that Fitzpatrick was the worst idea in the history of sports and they were crazy for thinking it may not have been insane.

 

Really. So, it's not "silly" to bet your career on a guy that leads you to a 16-32 record and getting fired? Maybe it doesn't meet clinical insanity as you say, but it isn't exactly a prime example of strategic thinking. Hell, it doesn't even meet the reflex reaction of self-preservation.

You seem to have hit on my point that criticism should be more thought out than "I don't like Ryan Fitzpatrick" so I'm glad we're in agreement there.

You seem to be hunting the wrong tree. I've never claimed that Ryan Fitzpatrick is the only problem. Far from it, in fact.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

10% of zero is still zero.

 

While that may be true, the actual math is that under Jauron, the Bills defense ranked between 10th and 18th in points allowed while under Gailey (Edwards and Wanny) the defense ranked between 26th and 30th.

 

FWIW, which I guess is your point.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Oh, do I call a heaping load of BS on this one. Our run defense has always been pure garbage, and the Jauron bend-don't-break model got the Bills to 7-9 with regularity. Let's not pretend that this is some monumental improvement over 6-10, when at least Gailey figured out once how to beat the Patriots. The Jauron-Levy defense sucked, and it was just good enough to make you believe that it was capable of doing something until crunch time. It had no killer instinct and could not find pressure or a stop on the run when it needed these most. Jauron's defenses did feature better play from the defensive backs, but I'll attribute that to Jabari Greer (whom that same leadership let go), a healthier Terrence McGee in his prime, and an misguided over-investment on that phase of the game. They also had better LB talent in Poz, Crowell, Haggan and Mitchell, and Fletcher that first year. Not great by any means but a league-average group at least. Too bad they were always making tackles at the second level because these sh-- for brains thought that they could get by with weak and small D linemen (and let good ones go to succeed elsewhere).

 

Better defense, my azz.

Did you even read the sentence that you bolded? You clearly didn't understand it. Here is a hint, "strength of the team" doesn't have to mean it was dominant and world-beating; and, that is certainly not what I meant. So, you're not on point here. Anyway, I see Dave has already given you the stats.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

While that may be true, the actual math is that under Jauron, the Bills defense ranked between 10th and 18th in points allowed while under Gailey (Edwards and Wanny) the defense ranked between 26th and 30th.

 

FWIW, which I guess is your point.

 

Moreover, under Gailey the Bills surrendered an average of 27 points per game.

 

Under Jauron the Bills surrendered an average of 20.8 points per game.

 

That's fairly significant.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Did you even read the sentence that you bolded? You clearly didn't understand it. Here is a hint, "strength of the team" doesn't have to mean it was dominant and world-beating; and, that is certainly not what I meant. So, you're not on point here. Anyway, I see Dave has already given you the stats.

My point is that the stats were a mirage and that the so-called strength of Jauron's team was beatable once it was exposed by quality opponents. Personally, I would shoot right back and argue that Bobby April's top-5 Special Teams were the strength of the team. But for the sake of argument, let's say fine, the defenses were the strength of the team. That's setting the bar pretty low. It matters little that it was the strength of team with a 7-9 ceiling. Gailey's teams at least could score points and may have done better had some things broken the right way, but it matters little. Both were failures.

 

All the same, I would take the strengths of this current defensive personnel over the weak DL and decent defensive backfield that Jauron assembled. Please add many LBs!

[bowery4]

Kapernick has the tools to be a star for a long time, IMHO he will have to be more pocket orintated to last though. Flacco took a pretty long time to develop actually. I when Fitz went on a bit of a decent (might actually be worthy) streak and going into his second season as a starter, Fitz was statistically better than Joe. I watched some of the Ravens games too and Joe was not very accurate although that too was improving. In some ways Flacco has had an Eli like trajectory where as Fitz dropped off. He did indeed have a nice Super Bowl but he wasn't throwing to Lee Evans either.

I am also in the boat of the defense of the team helping the O look better, I am glad the FO has invested in it and hope it pays off. Chan had no idea what he was doing IMO in respect to D.