Yoho Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 It has been said that when things go good the QB gets too much credit and when things go bad, he gets too much blame. There is so much focus on the QB position but the other 10 guys out there with him have as much to do with his success or failure than individual talent of the QB. Think it was a coincidence that Joe Monata had Jerry Rice, Daunte Culpepper has Randy Moss, Peyton Manning has Marvin Harrison. That does not even mention Edgerrin James, all-pro lineman and great talent surrounding them. Sheesh, what a shock, Bledsoe looks better with a little oline stability, McGahee behind him and Lee Evans learning the pro game and stepping up. Without those factors in place, whoever played that position was not going to be able to step up. Quit fixating on the quarterback. The Ravens won with Dilfer, the Colts have never won with Manning. Losman will only look as good as the talent that surrounds him. The same is true with Bledsoe. But, whoever thinks that a QB switch is a miracle cure without the other improvements falling in place is in for a major disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 You're half-right, but you're also using extreme examples to make your point. The Ravens had one of the best defenses in league history. The Colts have a bad defense, and Manning still has a lot of years left - he will win a SB before he's done. The Bills have a good defense, great Special Teams, good RB, pretty good WR's, and they're 5-6. What's left to blame? The OL certainly isn't good and we all agree it's a priority in the offseason but it's not THAT bad. Yesterday was the first time we scored a 1st half TD on the road in how long? It's gotten to the point where the 1st Jets game was considered a decent offensive peroformance on the road even though we were shut out for 3 Qtr's. The QB was a major problem in the Raiders, Ravens, and Patriots games, and to think otherwise is just kidding yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMark Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 SHHHHHH....don't you know the vocal minority here does not like logic . It is known the silent majority of people here at TBD actually: (1) Are extremely impressed with yesterdays win. (2) Support DB as qb, not because of anything other than he is the Bills QB. (3) Think the few consistent posters against DB are doing it just for ***** and giggles. There is no way you cannot be impressed with DB this season or with yesterdays game. (4) Think that the Bills coaches and administrators are relatively smart and DO NOT need our collective KzooMike, though well meaning advice. (5)Visit here to listen to the small (literally and figuratively) posters whom claim to know all and then watch as their two worst nightmares come to fruition: W winning the presidency and the Bills winning with DB, yet we do not post and rub it in because after all, the majority of us have a life and cannot spend hour after hour touching ourselves at the computer terminal like some people probably do all the time with their "flutie-esque" logic. But hey, you expressed what about 95% of us here believe, yet we do not need to validate our selves by posting it ad naseum. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsSouth Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Manning won´t ever win a SB - his signing bonus and ridiculous salary will destroy Indy after this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 2 ok games do not make a season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 big ben has the #1 D in the NFL, and throws for 150 yards and 1 TD and they say he should be considered for MVP... cus hes 8-0 as a starter... LOL. that says it all right there. i could say the same about Brady, up until last season (man i hate that guy). Manning is throwing to everyone on his team, i dont even think harrison is the leading reciever..... he is the real deal. vick is also the man, he is lacking in the pocket passes, but he finds a way to get the win. do you really think the falcons would win 5 games without him???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 big ben has the #1 D in the NFL, and throws for 150 yards and 1 TD and they say he should be considered for MVP... cus hes 8-0 as a starter... LOL. that says it all right there. i could say the same about Brady, up until last season (man i hate that guy). Brady, like Big Ben, has a great defense. They also have solid ST's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Brady, like Big Ben, has a great defense. They also have solid ST's. 137838[/snapback] very true, whens the last time you saw the pats get to the 40 and punt on 4th down insted of kicking a field goal. and whens the last time you saw there kicker miss??? when you put points on the board just about every drive, its hard to loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan Trapped in Pats Land Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Manning won´t ever win a SB - his signing bonus and ridiculous salary will destroy Indy after this season. 137792[/snapback] Agreed. I think there is a 0% chance of them resigning Edge, and they probably don't have the cap room to give Harrison the kind of bonus he will command on the open market. That defense still sucks, too despite a few nice games in a row. Your D can play a lot looser and better when you're up 2+ TDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 SHHHHHH....don't you know the vocal minority here does not like logic . It is known the silent majority of people here at TBD actually:(1) Are extremely impressed with yesterdays win. (2) Support DB as qb, not because of anything other than he is the Bills QB. (3) Think the few consistent posters against DB are doing it just for ***** and giggles. There is no way you cannot be impressed with DB this season or with yesterdays game. (4) Think that the Bills coaches and administrators are relatively smart and DO NOT need our collective KzooMike, though well meaning advice. (5)Visit here to listen to the small (literally and figuratively) posters whom claim to know all and then watch as their two worst nightmares come to fruition: W winning the presidency and the Bills winning with DB, yet we do not post and rub it in because after all, the majority of us have a life and cannot spend hour after hour touching ourselves at the computer terminal like some people probably do all the time with their "flutie-esque" logic. But hey, you expressed what about 95% of us here believe, yet we do not need to validate our selves by posting it ad naseum. Well done. 137791[/snapback] Logic??? Maybe you should learn the art . Most here have been bashing Drew, but they're simply acknowledging that he played solid (save the three picks) . No one is promoting him as "our" guy, at least not the 95% you speak of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 very true, whens the last time you saw the pats get to the 40 and punt on 4th down insted of kicking a field goal. and whens the last time you saw there kicker miss??? Viniatieri has been as important to that team as Brady. But as I've said, they're still first and foremost a defense-led team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMark Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Logic??? Maybe you should learn the art . Most here have been bashing Drew, but they're simply acknowledging that he played solid (save the three picks) . No one is promoting him as "our" guy, at least not the 95% you speak of... 138035[/snapback] Maybe you should try reading comprehension baby einstein. By the way, logic is as much science as it is art. Also, where did I say that 95% of us are promoting him as "our" guy? - your quote not mine. Jesus - read a post before popping off at the hip. Lighten up Francis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Sorry no cliffnotes. If you suffer from ADD or your boss looks over your shoulder I advise you to skip this. It has been said that when things go good the QB gets too much credit and when things go bad, he gets too much blame. There is so much focus on the QB position but the other 10 guys out there with him have as much to do with his success or failure than individual talent of the QB. Think it was a coincidence that Joe Monata had Jerry Rice, Daunte Culpepper has Randy Moss, Peyton Manning has Marvin Harrison. That does not even mention Edgerrin James, all-pro lineman and great talent surrounding them. Sheesh, what a shock, Bledsoe looks better with a little oline stability, McGahee behind him and Lee Evans learning the pro game and stepping up. Without those factors in place, whoever played that position was not going to be able to step up. Quit fixating on the quarterback. The Ravens won with Dilfer, the Colts have never won with Manning. Losman will only look as good as the talent that surrounds him. The same is true with Bledsoe. But, whoever thinks that a QB switch is a miracle cure without the other improvements falling in place is in for a major disappointment. 137764[/snapback] I think many Bills fans and actually the boys in charge of the Bills are so locked into the old days that they desperately seek to find a new Jim Kelly, when his presence was a key to how the Bills went about winning, but was not an essential part of the Bills being a winner. The same is true of Thurman, Andre, Kent Hull, Bruce Smith etc. (though if you wanted to make a case for one of these players being the most essential to our glory year it was probably Bruce as hesaw us accomplish great things never having the group effort and talent support which Kelly and the offense had. In addition, Kelly could miss several games and someone like a Frank Reich could fill in and we still could do great things, when BS was gone we were in big trouble as a team). At any rate, the addiction which many NFL'ers feel to the QB position and the unfulfilled (if not unfulfillable) desire to find the next Jim Kelly has led to a series of mistakes which still haunt this team: 1. In 1994 the Bills made the first Jim Kelly inspired mistake which haunts this team even today. I fully expected the Bills to draft our QB of the future whom they would train for the day which befalls all NFLers when they are done due to age. Extraordinarily the Bills failed to draft a QB or even sign a FA or UDFA as his heir apparent. Instead, the assumption from top to bottom with the Bills was that Jimbo would play a very long time. In 1995 the decline in Jimbo's play began to show them they might be wrong and they drafted Todd Collins, a talented and accurate prospect, but unfortunately a project at best who needed time to deal with his failure at UMi to play in a pro style offense. By then Ralph had shown that the miscalculation on Jimbo was top to bottom in the organization as he made a handshale deal when Kelly was heading to FA to reward him in his next contract. Collins was rushed along in his development and proved to be an accurate passer but developed a fatal case of happy feet whenever he got blitzed. Jimbo ended his career getting carted off the field with a concussion and Ralph had to pay him a cool million off the books to make semi-good on his promise to take care of Jimbo in his next contract. I think some of the difficulty which Ralph has had getting into the HoF which he richly deserves based on his historic role with the AFC and a willingness he began to show with Bruce to open his wallet to build a winner is actually sour grapes he has caused by speaking out for tradition and the CBA pulicly, but behind the scenes he made an anti-CBA maneuver of buying Jimbo out because it was time for him to retire. 2. Poor development of TC caused by the rush to find the new Jimbo (a rush that some fans now want to repeat with JP). 3. A realization that TC would never be Jimbo so the Bills over-reached in trading a 3rd rounder for Billy Joe Hobert who promptly made the completely un-Kelly like maneuver of not preparing himself to play and he simply stunk up a relief appearance for an injured TC and got cut for being a duplicitous idiot. 4. The Bills made a great move in attacting Doug Flutie here for a song of a cap hit in 1998, however, our QB insecurity led Butler to make the stupid move of giving RJ a $25 million contract with about $8 million in guaranteed bonus. The Bills trade with Jax for RJ was at about the going rate (a 1st and a 4th) for a prospect QB who had played well in his one pro appearance. However, where Butler screwed up was in making such a large cap commitment to an unproven NFL starting QB. Even worse, it turned out the way they had attracted Flutie here was by promising him a bonafide shot at the starting QB job (a bonafide shot he was denied when they committed big bucks to RJ) and even worse they had signed a deal which rolled any incentives achieved by Flutie if he should play in 1998 into his base salary. As it happened, things turned out as planned by the football side of the organization. RJ got hurt (not planned for but not surprising in the NFL) and Flutie played as promised by the scouts and started enough games and got enough yards and TD passes to make every incentive in his contract. In 1999, the Bills found themselves with a $3 million cap hit for the 1998 incentives hit by Flutie because he played like we wanted him to as a fill-in. another $3 million in Flutie's newly achieved base pay, and $5+ million dollars in base salary and prorated bonus to RJ. The Bills had no choice but to sign DF to a long-term deal which spread the $6 million they were due to pay him in 1999 over sevaral years as they were due to pay RJ $5+ million for sitting on the bench or whatever (the big bucks Ralph was paying RJ was probably a big part of him getting the start of the playoff game against TN after a team QB'ed by Flutie had earned a playoff berth by week 15 so they could easily justify giving Flutie the week off and RJ simply shredded an Indy team which gave up on the game against the Bills after one of their starters went down to injury and it became clear they also would not improve their playoff position by risking injury for a win against the Bills. 5. As if that were not enough as the Bills cut both RJ and DF at the cost of several million dollars in dead space as the went through a rebuilding year in the 2001 season, the Bills made an unusal trade for Drew Bledsoe to replace the wounded RJ and an AVP who was a great reliever but lousy starter as their starting QB. This unusual intradivisional trade of a starting QB paid off handsomely for the Bills initially as Bledsoe won the hearts of the Buffalo community in terms of the the business and even better was a key to him helping several O performers to Pro Bowl years and he even earned (and deserved in my opinion) a 2002 reserve Pro Bowl berth. In addition, NE needed to move Bledsoe because Beady was clearly a better younger QB and brought them together as a team to win the 2001 season SB. However, the accelerated cap hit from trading Bledsoe played a key role (and quite frankly was the major reason 2 SB winning performances were bookends) in the team missing the playoffs completely in 2002. The Bills mistake since I view the decision to trade for him as a wash (very good and a deserved comeback player of the year his first year and Bledsoe simply sucked his second year as opponents got ample tape of his running the Bills O and Gilbride refused to change it for whatever reason and BB provuded a template for how to beat him) was TDs decision to resign him this year. Thankfully, he did negotiate a far more salary cap friendly deal for DB, but it takes a great HC like Parcells or BB to win with Bledsoe's limitiations. Though MM looks good as an HC, he is simply a rookie HC and it should have been expected that Bledsoe would not get the job done Yesterday was great for the Bills because it at least provides some hope that this team can win going away on the road even with Bledsoe stumbling and bumbling his way to 3 INTs. QB of the future Losman is simply not ready to start without doing even more harm to his development as the QB of the future, Bledsoe can be cut as a cap casualty after June of 2005 but certainly not sooner to be fiscally managed as even cutting him as a cap casualty may end up with us having to pay too much for a back-up and.or rishing RJ along. Yesterday was perfect in that the blow-out of the opponent (particularly on the road) is what we want to achieve and also by doing time to mop-up the game JP gets a chance to play which is essential for a QB who showed us yeaterday with his initial delay of game penalty that he has not yet even gained the ability yet to do fundamental team management. At any rate, a lot of this in my view is based in NFL pros and fans generally overrating the QB and Bills fans in particular overrating this position afeter Jimbo did a great job. Sorry no cliff notes but it has been fun to think out loud with this writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Every team in the league thats having a good year is getting above average play from the qb position. It is still the most important position on the team. San Diego Pitt New England Indy Philly Minny Green Bay You can bet the Super bowl teams are coming out of that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 It has been said that when things go good the QB gets too much credit and when things go bad, he gets too much blame. There is so much focus on the QB position but the other 10 guys out there with him have as much to do with his success or failure than individual talent of the QB. Think it was a coincidence that Joe Monata had Jerry Rice, Daunte Culpepper has Randy Moss, Peyton Manning has Marvin Harrison. That does not even mention Edgerrin James, all-pro lineman and great talent surrounding them. Sheesh, what a shock, Bledsoe looks better with a little oline stability, McGahee behind him and Lee Evans learning the pro game and stepping up. Without those factors in place, whoever played that position was not going to be able to step up. Quit fixating on the quarterback. The Ravens won with Dilfer, the Colts have never won with Manning. Losman will only look as good as the talent that surrounds him. The same is true with Bledsoe. But, whoever thinks that a QB switch is a miracle cure without the other improvements falling in place is in for a major disappointment. 137764[/snapback] Your unparalleled reasoning and logic has no place on this board. How dare you insunuate that the QB is not the catalyst for every fricken problem this team has had. Cut Yoyo! The haters have put you on their lists now. I'd only recommend that you come out at nite. You will be watched, henceforth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_Coach_Tuesday Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I don't think your QB has to be a superstar; in my mind it's about turnovers. Simply, he can't turn the ball over. That's all I ask. Don't throw stupid picks and your team will have a shot at winning every game if the players around you are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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