O line again

[thebandit27]

What a lot of posters fail to realize is that without even a decent O line there is no running game, which means play action passing won't work. With no decent running game it all falls to the QB to make plays.

 

It is only a matter of time before any QB will get injured behind a poor O line. Take a look at big ben this season and his concussion, as good as he is, he can't win games sitting on the sidelines. Plus the acumulative effect of all the hits that some QB's endure.

 

Look at the Bills this season, only 46 QB sacks but they have had to endure 102 hits, second most in the NFL this year. Now think of how many more sacks and hits would be recorded if Edwards actually tried to complete more down field passes instead of dumping the ball off.

 

Ironic that you point this out in a thread that was started with a San Diego reference, since they rank 29th in the NFL in rushing yards, but Rivers is having his best season as a pro.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tab...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

A great QB can make up for a poor OL. Yes, a good OL helps the running game, but the passing offense comes down to the QB. Again I'll say, just look at some of the most sacked QBs in the game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?sea...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

You see names like Rogers, Roethlisberger, Favre, Romo, McNabb...all in the top 10 (3 in the top 6, incidentally). Yet they all rank in the top 10 in QB rating and YPA, and lead passing offenses that rank in the top 9 in the league (except for Favre, who's Vikings rank 12th).

 

I'll agree that an average QB can produce better with a great OL, but the fact that a great QB can produce with a lousy OL is--in today's NFL--undeniable.

[DELLAPELLE JOHN]

just draft the qb and then take a lt and rt in rds 2 3

[R. Rich]

just draft the qb and then take a lt and rt in rds 2 3

 

Which QB in Round 1 and which LT and RT in Rounds 2 and 3? It has to be more than just grab a certain position. You take the best talent for the pick. Well, the teams that consistently win do that. If you go after a position w/ a certain pick, you end up settling for players instead of getting the best player available.

[Brandon]

This has seemingly been the mantra for the Bills' front office since the late 90s, which is 'round the time when they stopped being a competitive team.

 

To be fair, he did say that the OL was important. That's quite a bit more credit than the Bills have given them at times this decade.

 

As with everything else, there has to be a balance. The OL is important, but not all-important, just as the QB is important, but not all-important. The one thing I'm pretty certain of is that if the Bills are ever going to win, both areas of the team are going to have to get significantly better, along with a few others.

[MRM33064]

This has seemingly been the mantra for the Bills' front office since the late 90s, which is 'round the time when they stopped being a competitive team.

 

One might say that, though I'd suggest the fact that we've had Rob Johnson, Kelly Holcomb, J.P. Losman, Trent Edwards, and Ryan Fitzpatrick has had a lot more to do with our ineptitude than a spotty (or bad) offensive line.

 

When Bledsoe was here - arguably our only real talented QB during that period - we at least sniffed offensive respectability.

 

I don't buy the implication that if our line would've been better, that QB list would now look like an All-Pro list.

 

ALL aspects are important, it's a team game, but give me a star QB first. I'll build around him. The problem is finding him - more than 25 teams in the NFL are also looking.

[thewildrabbit]

Who saw the Colts game last week? As soon as Painter went into the game for Manning, the Colts o-line looked very Buffalo Bills like. It goes to show you how much a QB can help his line. Manning goes through his reads quicker, feels the pressure better, knows where to position himself, and gets the ball out of there. Painter looked like Losman and Manning rarely gets a finger put on him.

 

C'mon, how can you compare a QB who has played in the same offense for 10+ years, calls his own plays and is the premier QB in the league... to a rookie who has no starts,no experience, and most likely took very little reps, and is still learning that offense? Of course he would make the line look bad, he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Payton Manning is the least sacked QB in the league with only 12 sacks allowed, it has a lot to do with the QB's playing experience. The Colts are currently fielding the best O line in the league because of the continuity of the O line playing together as a unit, as well as Payton Manning and his abilities, it is called teamwork.

 

The Bills QB's don't stand a chance to be successful behind the worst O line in the league, no matter how good Payton Manning is, he wouldn't be as good as he is behind the Bills O line. Like the Bills QB's, it would only be a matter of time before those hits and sacks took their toll.

[PushthePile]

C'mon, how can you compare a QB who has played in the same offense for 10+ years, calls his own plays and is the premier QB in the league... to a rookie who has no starts,no experience, and most likely took very little reps, and is still learning that offense? Of course he would make the line look bad, he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Payton Manning is the least sacked QB in the league with only 12 sacks allowed, it has a lot to do with the QB's playing experience. The Colts are currently fielding the best O line in the league because of the continuity of the O line playing together as a unit, as well as Payton Manning and his abilities, it is called teamwork.

 

The Bills QB's don't stand a chance to be successful behind the worst O line in the league, no matter how good Payton Manning is, he wouldn't be as good as he is behind the Bills O line. Like the Bills QB's, it would only be a matter of time before those hits and sacks took their toll.

Indy has a couple mid-level FAs starting and a LT who had 4 games of experience at the position, prior to the season. They have had trouble getting consistent play at the LT position since Tarik Glenn retired. Jeff Saturday is their longest starting o-lineman and even he is getting a little long in the tooth.

 

The running game has been stagnant for a while as well but that is not how they are designed. The truth is that the unit pass blocks well and has definitive assignments. They are hardly the best in the NFL though. Manning is his own best friend. He knows where he is going with the ball before the play starts. Our QBs could get 2 quarters worth of time, and still be lost.

 

We are comparing the best in the game to backups though. TE and Fitz couldn't run the Indy offense. They certainly aren't good enough to make it work behind this line. Many QBs would have done a better job though.

[thewildrabbit]

Ironic that you point this out in a thread that was started with a San Diego reference, since they rank 29th in the NFL in rushing yards, but Rivers is having his best season as a pro.

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tab...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

A great QB can make up for a poor OL. Yes, a good OL helps the running game, but the passing offense comes down to the QB. Again I'll say, just look at some of the most sacked QBs in the game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?sea...mp;d-447263-n=1

 

You see names like Rogers, Roethlisberger, Favre, Romo, McNabb...all in the top 10 (3 in the top 6, incidentally). Yet they all rank in the top 10 in QB rating and YPA, and lead passing offenses that rank in the top 9 in the league (except for Favre, who's Vikings rank 12th).

 

I'll agree that an average QB can produce better with a great OL, but the fact that a great QB can produce with a lousy OL is--in today's NFL--undeniable.

Ironic that you point out that the Chargers pass 470 attempts to 410 rush, it is because under Norv Turner they have become an unbalanced team and clearly pass more.Lets see how that team fairs if they need to go to a cold weather stadium and play in the snow and cold.

 

Ben Rothlisberger suffered a concussion this season, which was not as great as the one Trent Edwards suffered last season in Arizona, with a poor line and getting sacked often it is only a matter of time before he gets knocked out like Brady or suffers a career ending injury, or needs to retire from reoccurring concussions.

 

Both the Eagles and Cowboys have two of the best O lines in the NFL this year,The Cowboys is stated to have the biggest and best.

 

Ironic? Howabout Arron Rodgers, who like Phillip Rivers also had improved play as the result of his starting left tackle returning, Mark Tauscher.

 

 

If you honestly believe that any of those QB's you mentioned could step in behind Buffalo's O line, with Buffalo's play calling and offensive scheme and be as successful as they currently are simply because they are really good QB's... What is undeniable is you have 15watts

[PushthePile]

Ironic that you point out that the Chargers pass 470 attempts to 410 rush, it is because under Norv Turner they have become an unbalanced team and clearly pass more.Lets see how that team fairs if they need to go to a cold weather stadium and play in the snow and cold.

 

Ben Rothlisberger suffered a concussion this season, which was not as great as the one Trent Edwards suffered last season in Arizona, with a poor line and getting sacked often it is only a matter of time before he gets knocked out like Brady or suffers a career ending injury, or needs to retire from reoccurring concussions.

 

Both the Eagles and Cowboys have two of the best O lines in the NFL this year,The Cowboys is stated to have the biggest and best.

 

Ironic? Howabout Arron Rodgers, who like Phillip Rivers also had improved play as the result of his starting left tackle returning, Mark Tauscher.

 

 

If you honestly believe that any of those QB's you mentioned could step in behind Buffalo's O line, with Buffalo's play calling and offensive scheme and be as successful as they currently are simply because they are really good QB's... What is undeniable is you have 15watts

This is really the root of your argument. You are not a doctor and have no idea whose concussion was worse. You are a Trent apologist and that's fine, but your opinions are forced. Our QB situatuion is just as putrid as our line. If you don't think that every playoff QB this year would have done better for us, than you are working with even less than "15 watts".

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Why do so many on this board argue from opposite poles? My experience in life is that there is very little black and white. Most often, the truth resides between the extremes.

 

Look, Most of the quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame operated behind great offensive lines.

 

Some quarterbacks are so good that they can transcend, to some degree, poor offensive line play. A good recent example of this is Aaron Rodgers, although both Rodgers and another guy who falls in this category, Big Ben, have been criticized by their coaches for holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks. It's entirely possible that although their offensive lines are not very good, they're also not as bad as many feel.

 

Many quarterbacks have been permanently ruined/traumatized by playing behind poor offensive lines (Bert Jones, Archie Manning).

 

Some quarterbacks took a beating early in their careers and were able to overcome the trauma (Troy Aikman).

 

Others were not as successful. Maybe in different circumstances, two guys who had the **** beat out of them, David Carr and Joey Harrington would have developed into good quarterbacks.

 

The truth is rarely one extreme or the other. As the wise man Kahlil Gibran once said, "Say not I have found the truth but rather, I have found a truth."

[thewildrabbit]

Indy has a couple mid-level FAs starting and a LT who had 4 games of experience at the position, prior to the season. They have had trouble getting consistent play at the LT position since Tarik Glenn retired. Jeff Saturday is their longest starting o-lineman and even he is getting a little long in the tooth.

 

The running game has been stagnant for a while as well but that is not how they are designed. The truth is that the unit pass blocks well and has definitive assignments. They are hardly the best in the NFL though. Manning is his own best friend. He knows where he is going with the ball before the play starts. Our QBs could get 2 quarters worth of time, and still be lost.

 

We are comparing the best in the game to backups though. TE and Fitz couldn't run the Indy offense. They certainly aren't good enough to make it work behind this line. Many QBs would have done a better job though.

I'm not denying this, in fact I agree with it to a point. But how many hits would it take before their season ends like Edwards did, on IR. Most posters here even predicted this would happen over the course of this season.

 

Lets face it, the Bills have the 2nd worst offense in the NFL for several reasons.

 

1) rookie play caller, who got the job two weeks before the season started and had no time to go over the play book and prepare for the season.

 

2) one of the worst schemes in the NFL, both Schonert and AVP were handicapped with the Mike Martz offense that Steve Fairchild started them off with.

 

3) now the O line, only one player has managed to stay healthy and play the entire season and that is the center,Geoff Hangartner.

 

7 different combination's of linemen throughout the season, so many injuries to a line that started so many inexperienced linemen to start with. The entire line was retooled and not one starting player from last season was in the same position.

 

Bottom line: While I'll admit that the center and guards this season were upgrades from last season, it is the tackle position which defined this years team!

With no stable presence on either end the opponents DE's were able to rush the Bills QB's with ease, and cause constant pressure.With little time to throw on many occasions the Bills could not implement and sustain drives throughout games.

 

If you know your QB is not as good as some of the top QBs' in the league, wouldn't it be wise to try and build the very best O line you can to help them overcome their limitations? Wouldn't you try and build a dominate running attack first to help the QB succeed by utilizing play action passing and only passing when it is to your advantage?

[thewildrabbit]

This is really the root of your argument. You are not a doctor and have no idea whose concussion was worse. You are a Trent apologist and that's fine, but your opinions are forced. Our QB situatuion is just as putrid as our line. If you don't think that every playoff QB this year would have done better for us, than you are working with even less than "15 watts".

Your are correct I'm not a doctor, even the doctors with 2009 medicine still don't fully understand the aspects of any concussion. I was going by the reports that I read. Trent Edwards suffered a "severe' concussion in Arizona, while Big Ben suffered a more "mild" concussion.

 

I'm am not a Trent apologist and my opinions are not forced, I'm a realist!

 

I realize the Bills O line is the worst in the NFL and no QB could be successful over a season behind that line.

 

In an earlier thread someone posted that Trent Edwards sucked from day one, I then stated I wondered how long it would be before Fitz looked like he sucked from day one http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?...amp;pid=1653323

[Thoner7]

I largely agree, however, note that the San Diego Chargers are dead last in the NFL in rushing yards per attempt and 29th in total rushing yards. The Colts? 30th in yards per attempt and dead last in overall rushing yardage. By contrast, our lowly Bills are 19th in the NFL in rushing, but, despite their OL troubles, are 13th in yards per carry.

 

A good QB can certainly make up for a lot of other problems on offense.

 

I agree with what you said- but thats not the point I was trying to make. I was getting at how to draft, groom, and develope the QB so that they BECOME a Manning/Rivers/Rothelismcburger/Flacco etc. You need the other 21 pieces of the puzzle.....

 

Of course you dont really need a great running game when you have P. Manning. What I was trying to say is, young QBs are more likely to become successful with a good supporting cast. Rivers was drafted, sat for a few years learning, then came in with a great running game (LT lead the league in rushing in Rivers first two seasons as starter - 06, 07) and great D. The running game has slowed, the D is not as good, but Rivers has become a great QB, the they dont need the running game and D to remain competative. If he was asked to win games for them from day one, struggled, and was run out of town after a few losing seasons and a regime change..... not the same ending. P. Manning had Edge - who led the league in rushing his first two years in the league (Mannings second and third years). Sanchez has the same luxary of great running game OL and D.

 

What will the Bills rookie QB have? The leagues worst run D from a year before - who can never get off the field. A OL made of swiss cheese, and a middle of the road running attack. Not exactly the winning formula. I am well aware the Bills need a QB BADLY, but we need other things just as bad. We arent going to draft a guy who plays like Rivers/Manning out of the gate- so all the posts like "a great QB doesnt need a great OL"... you are right... but we dont have a great QB. If we draft one, we wont have one for 3-4 years. If Clausen is the guy and availible, draft him, but dont play him next season - it will do more harm then good. I dont think He will be there. I dont think Bradford is worth our top ten pick as of right now. I do know there will be an OL there worth it though.

 

Teams dont need a great OL when they have Manning/Rivers etc. We have Brian Brohm/2010 draft pick/washed up free agent. So yea, we need a great line to be successful.

[Thoner7]

Just to add my personal believes on NFL football. Great QBs are so hard to come by. Theres Manning, theres Brees, Brady, Rivers whoever. They are never good from the get go and take years to become as good as they are. Its so hard to get a really good one these days. how hard is it to assemble a good OL? Its much easier. OL are some of the easiest to scout, contribute immediately, so on and so forth. Now if wood never was injured/comes back to play full strength, we basically have half an OL. If we dedicate two early picks to LT and C/G/T, our OL is set for 5-10 years depending on us resigning them. Levitre Wood 2 rooks and Butler. Two drafts, entire good OL assembled. Now with a great D on the other side and a running game, we can compete every year redardless of who is at QB. Id rather be experiencing the Jets season right now than the Lions.....

[thewildrabbit]

Just to add my personal believes on NFL football. Great QBs are so hard to come by. There is Manning, there is Brees, Brady, Rivers whoever. They are never good from the get go and take years to become as good as they are. Its so hard to get a really good one these days. How hard is it to assemble a good OL, Its much easier. OL are some of the easiest to scout, contribute immediately, so on and so forth.

 

Now if wood never was injured/comes back to play full strength, we basically have half an OL. If we dedicate two early picks to LT and C/G/T, our OL is set for 5-10 years depending on us resigning them. Levitre Wood 2 rooks and Butler. Two drafts, entire good OL assembled. Now with a great D on the other side and a running game, we can compete every year regardless of who is at QB. Id rather be experiencing the Jets season right now than the Lions.....

 

I agree

 

One of the main reasons why Bill Cowher doesn't want to come to Buffalo is because the Bills don't have a great QB. Plus he would have to rebuild the entire offense starting from coaches, O line, playbook, game plan. Considering he is a defensive minded coach he would be forced to rely completely on whomever he hires.

 

Do the Bills QB's suck as most posters here think? I would say no to that, they are all decent, just not great.

Can the Bills win games with those 3, the answer is yes! "IF" they build the proper offense to help them win games and not force those young inexperienced QB's to make all the plays.

 

All I'm saying is one or two O line players for this season would have made all the difference in the world.

Had the Bills gotten a replacement for Peters in the draft or free agency instead of a DE with that first round pick it would have helped the entire offense immensely.

[Orton's Arm]

Are you implying Fitzpatrick would be a Pro Bowler if we had a better OL?

What is D Anderson and B Quinn's excuse then?

Having a great QB is better than having a great OL....your team will always be better with a great QB with an average line as compared to average QB with a great OL.

The Chargers do not have a great OL they have a great QB.

I agree it would be great to have both and having a great OL with a great QB is fantastic but how did the great Colts OL do as soon as Manning was out? Yeah, I thought so they give up a sack for a TD that Manning never would have given up. I'm all for having a great OL but I think it is way overstated as OL play is pretty similar throughout the NFL for the most part as starters around the league do not have as big differences as QB play. That is why the Colts can find guys from the Arena league and plug them in as starters.

How come T Jackson was not an excellent QB last year behind the same line with A Peterson as his RB that Favre plays behind.....could it be that Favre is such a better QB accounting for about 4-5 more wins and a better team?

I remember the AFC Championship game between the Bills and the Chiefs. Joe Montana was the Chiefs quarterback, and had done very well a week earlier against the Houston Oilers. But when he played the Bills, his supporting cast--including his OL--was dominated by the Bills' defense. Consequently, Joe Montana was unable to accomplish much. He was knocked out near the end of the first half, after having led his team to just two field goals.

 

If you have at least a reasonably competent OL, then a Joe Montana will make a real difference to your team. But if your OL flat-out stinks, it does not matter who you have at QB. All quarterbacks look the same when lying on their backs.

[BillsfaninFl]

If you know your QB is not as good as some of the top QBs' in the league, wouldn't it be wise to try and build the very best O line you can to help them overcome their limitations? Wouldn't you try and build a dominate running attack first to help the QB succeed by utilizing play action passing and only passing when it is to your advantage?

 

I agree. Members of this board often say we need a "franchise quarterback." But in today's NFL, the game is even more dependent upon good quarterback play, and few stars are to be had. Most teams do not have a franchise quarterback, and there appears to be a widening gap between the elite QBs and the rest of the group.

 

Of course, there are some great offensive and defensive linemen, but IMO the gap between the great ones and the good ones is not as large. A team has a better chance of building strong lines, if they make it a priority, than finding the next Peyton manning or Tom Brady. That is why drafting (and/or acquiring quality free agent) linemen is so important for the Bills. Losman or Edwards may have worked out fine as starting quarterbacks if our O-line (and coaching) were effective. But we will never know.

 

The emphasis must be to acquire quality linemen.

[Fan in San Diego]

just draft the qb and then take a lt and rt in rds 2 3

 

IMHO we need a vetran QB next year to help the OL develop. Then maybe bring in a rising star rookie QB. A rookie QB cannot help a rookie OL.

[zazie]

How did the Oline do today? Who was standout in springing Jackson?

[Sisyphean Bills]

I doubt that Rivers would play well behind Buffalo's OL. He is not mobile and the strength of his game is his arm strength and downfield passing accuracy, both of which are of limited use if you have to dump everything off immediately due to the pass rush. Maybe someone like Kurt Warner or Drew Brees could look good here.

It's hard to be a superstar when you're medevaced out of the stadium.